which gun fits these requirements?

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Pendentive any semi auto can be carried without a round in the chamber; simply insert a loaded magazine and DO NOT pull the slide back. That way the slide cant come forward to strip a round off the mag and load it. I mentioned the magazine disconnect safety in an earlier post in this thread. I realize you're new to handgunning so I think I should explain it. A magazine disconnect is a safety that automatically engages when there is no mag in the pistol - it renders the pistol inoperable. Many CCW folks and law enforcement officers like this since, if in a struggle for the weapon, they can hit the mag release and drop the mag making the pistol inoperable. Then you let go of the gun and retreat to safety until help arrives; all while the BG is tryin to figure out why the heck the pistol wont fire even if there is a round in the chamber. I think the mag safety will appeal to you with your stated criteria. Also since your just getting into handgunning I'd also like to recommend that you pick up a full size 22 pistol to plink with. It will serve the pupose of cheap fun plinking while allowing you to practice your shooting skills and safe gun handling in an easier to handle package. There are plenty out there, just search 22 pistols here on THR for ideas and the always nice to have actual owner/ user opions. I hope this all helps.
 
Gun w/ Mag Disconnect

One possibility is the Beretta 84. It's 380 Auto & "less than a 9mm" since it's 7a 9 mm Kurz, 9 mm short, 9mm Browning, 9 x 17, or whatever you want to call it.

In addition, it can accept 13 rnd mags.

Good luck.
 
do you have a lot of experience with firearms?

I ask this because of your request for the firearm to have a safty. Most firearms have a couple of mechanical safties built inside of them, things to prevent the hammer from hitting a chambered round if the gun is dropped, etc.

I will assume you mean external safty. These may not be what you think they are. They are not an on-off switch. Most safteys are designed to put a block between the cocked hammer and the firing pin. However, unless the hammer is cocked, the saftey cannot be engaged. There are a few guns, like a beretta, that have a saftey that can be engaged with the hammer down. I don't know how racking the slide would effect that.

Hence your request doesn't make any sense, a saftey will not add an extra step to 'ready' the firearm.

Take a semi-auto, empty chamber. To chamber a round, you rack back the slide, this also cocks the hammer. The saftey, which was previously nonfuncitonal, can now be turned ON (making the gun unable to fire), however, it will currently be OFF, making the gun fireable at just the pull of the trigger.

Now let's talk DAO (double action ONLY) semi-automatics, which is closer to what you want, but often do not have any external safty at all. Empty chamber, no saftey, you rack the slide to chamber the gun, now it is the same as the above example except where above you need to apply 4-8ftlbs of pressure to work the trigger, a DAO is set up to require the double action of cocking the hammer with the trigger, which means 12-18lbs of pressure to work the trigger.

It seems to me if you really want multiple steps to bring a firearm from nonfuntional to functional, it isn't the saftey you should be thinking about. It should be the loaded/unloaded status.

If you really want to go far, carry a revolver with the cylinder loaded with EMPTY cases. Now to fire it, you must open the cylinder, eject the cases, insert ammunition, close cylinder, pull trigger. A badguy who takes the gun won't be able to use it at all, and may not even realize it is filled with empties.

Taken less far, carry a semiauto, carry a loaded magazine seperately. To fire the gun you must know where to find the magazine on your person (harder to spot than a gun, so less chance of a badguy stealing it while you sleep on a long busride, for example) insert mag, rack slide, pull trigger. If you wanted to add another step, have an empty magazine in the gun to start with, make the gun look more functional so if someone takes it it is less obviously unloaded. You then must remove old mag, instert new mag, rack slide, pull trigger.

Another alternative would be to use some sort of external or built-in locking device. Take the revolver idea, using for example taurus tracker, 7 shot 357 revolver. Load 5 rounds, place the empty chamber under the hammer. Use the hexkey to lock the hammer down on the top of the gun. Now, to make the gun fire you must take out the key, put it in the hole and unlock the hammer. you must then pull the trigger twice to move the two empty chambers out. The third pull will rotate a live round and drop the hammer on it, firing the gun.


now, i think your ideas about how and when to use a gun are moronic, but these suggestions are more realistic ways of reaching your goal of 'preventing your own gun from being used against you, or from discharging accidentally'
 
I would seriously look into the HK P7 series (which they just stopped making):cuss: It has a cocking lever that must be squeezed in order to fire the gun. Most BG's would be somewhat confused about how to fire it I think. They are selling for big $$$ but you don't seem to care about that. I would find a shop that has one and go check it out before buying any of the other stuff.
 
another good point is that there is a ton of anecdotal evidence of police or others who carried 'cocked and locked' that is loaded, round in chamber, hammer back, saftey on, who loose the gun in the scuffle being saved because the badguy cannot figure out how to disengage saftey. On the flip side of this, there are incidents when the police officer was trained that the saftey was only a decocker, never got used to flipping saftey off, and in a fight gun gets knocked out of hand, scoop it up, officer cannot fire gun because the saftey has been knocked on, and gets killed.
 
pendentive,
All requirements can be met with almost any pistol that has a safety. In particular I'm thinking of the Para Ordnance LDA line of guns:

Manual Safety, Grip Safety, carried with a full magazine and nothing in the chamber. The manual safety can be engaged whether or not the gun is cocked. The slide can not be retracted to charge the pistol if the manual safety is engaged.

1. Release the safety.
2. Rack & release the slide.
3. To boom or not to boom (presuming you have a firm enough grip and your finger near or on the trigger).

Here's an example in .45ACP that shows the manual safety, grip safety, and slide release side of the pistol:

HERE

No fooling around with empty charge holes in the cylinder, no trick triggers requiring an appropriate holster to avoid accidental discharge when snagged on something in your pocket (Glock comes to mind).

The "Carry" versions are small and powerful. Expensive, too. The LDAs have a very nice trigger pull.

I had a Carry and have a Carry 12. I sold the Carry (6+1 Rnds) and kept the Carry 12 (12+1 Rnds). I'm a big guy and the Carry 12 at 7-inches OA is easy to conceal.

I believe my reasoning on the original LDA selection may have been similar to your own, I wanted to force myself to accomplish two deliberate actions, give myself time to think or reflect on the seriousness of what I was doing before actually pulling the trigger. I also was relatively unfamiliar with the handling of different, available guns designed to include personal defense.

However

I have since come to believe that I am capable of proper employment of a fully charged revolver or pistol with safe and proper gun handling using a gun well designed for my intended purposes (which also include target shooting).

If you really think you don't need to draw and fire, don't. That's the real safety and no gun comes with it. If you're the kind of person who is determined to us a gun only as a last, legal resort, you won't. If you haven't done so already, putting a couple thousands rounds down range will certainly illustrate the deliberate nature of action required to discharge a gun even if it's already in battery.

So, to my mind, that sort of takes the pressure off having a chambered round in a pistol or revolver. At the same time, given good judgement and a reliable gun, why have to go through two actions when having only one might save a life, including your own?

That thought opens up what other posters have already pointed out: small DA revolver, small DA pistol, the P-7 series of "squeeze cockers" (my favorite and probably the safest to carry with "one in the pipe"), and my own suggestion of the Para Ordnance guns, above, can all be carried safely if you are safety conscious.

If you spend time at ranges that rent what you might consider, or if you have friends who'll give you trigger time on this or that, you may narrow the field before purchasing something.

I didn't. I have at least one of each DA revolver, SA/DA revolver, LDA, and P-7s. It's more fun that way.

Spend, shoot, learn...
 
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yes...I have thought it over quite a bit, and that's what I want.


If I happen to be in a situation where quick draw is needed....then I will draw a dotted line in the dust on my way outta there...or, if not possible, I am prepared to suffer the consequences.

I want a two-step process (minimum) in order to have it ready-to-go. Plain and simple. I seriously doubt I will ever be in such position, and any gun would better than none. But before I shoot I will attempt to run, fight, kick, punch, stab, etc. If my luck is good that day, I will live. If not, I am prepared to go.


Thanks for the suggestion: Kahr & baby-glock.....I'm off to find pics.
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You would be better off without the gun. Your mindset is not right to carry one and you will just end up supplying a bad guy with a firearm. When you need a deadly force weapon you need it then and you need it ready.You also need the mindset to use it and your own words indicate you dont' think you will ever need this particular piece of emergency equipment.
Many here will blow a gasket that I would dare tell you this but the most unprofessional, the most careless attitude you can have is it won't happen to me and you are covered up with that attitude. If it was you only I'd say what the hey but your attitude could put others in danger so look at pepper spray or a 4 cell mag light you don't need a gun. It is your right and if you choose to do do so so be it but it would be a mistake from what you have stated.
 
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GruntII.

A bit harsh, I'd say. Ya can't learn if you don't try. Or, if I can learn how, anyone can. Take your pick. With practice for confidence and exposure to the right training, he's better off with something he can learn with than avoiding gun ownership.

(Can you really play the piano?)
 
GruntII.

A bit harsh, I'd say. Ya can't learn if you don't try. Or, if I can learn how, anyone can. Take your pick. With practice for confidence and exposure to the right training, he's better off with something he can learn with than avoiding gun ownership.

(Can you really play the piano?)
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Harsh? maybe but I prefer realistic. I didn't say he shouldn't own guns that just with his mindset he shouldn't carry one as a defensive tool. Carrying a weapon be it handgun, cutlass or long arm is extremely serious business where you must be ready to sereverely injure or kill if need be in defense of yourself or those you hold dear . Pendentive clearly states he is more concerned with an AD/ND than the readiness of the weapon and is willing to lose the battle if need be because of this requirement. This elemenates a firearm form consideration as a defensive tool. It is a losers mindset and this ain't tag football we are talking about you lose you may die, those around you may die, and if carrying you just arm the bad guys. Losing is never a plan.He is ready to accept the consequences of not being ready, that's all nice till someone has to clean up his mess and deliver the message to his people. There are easier way to off one's self and less dangerous to those around you also.
Carrying a gun for defense is not a fashion statement but a choice of lifestyle where you make hard choices about preperation, mindset and courses of action. This is lacking in his statements.

And 2 fingered chopsticks is about the best I can do. The tag line is just a statement about the way VA Police Officers are viewed by our parent organization.
 
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Without being disrespectful to you, GruntII, I'm pretty sure you didn't start out chewing nails and having the tough, aggressive mindset you display in your post. Moreover you're in a profession where that mindset is a survival characteristic instilled by training and experience and you must, by definition, be prepared without warning to put yourself on the line. You've had to think about it. It's your job.

Thanks for taking on the responsibility

The rest of us, and most LEOs, never have to draw or fire their weapons in defense of ourselves or others. That's a good thing, I would say. In fact far and away in most Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs) the gun is not discharged at all. In that sense, it is unsurprising that someone relatively new to shooting sports and tactical firearms handling should be concerned about ADs. (NDs are another matter altogether and pendentive has shown no leaning toward negligence that I can distinguish-like pocket carrying a glock.)

I believe that pendentive may be recent to owning or carrying a personal defense firearm. Pendentive may feel one way now, as posted, and very likely with experience move toward the mindset even more favorable to survival such as you have had to come to terms with in your own life.

So, I stick by "harsh"; it's a compliment of recognition, and I hope you can find a way to help pendentive and me learn some of what's useful to for us civilians to know about self defense with a firearm without actually having to become like certified LEOs in our approach to it.

Reading, introspection, training, practice. It's gotta start someplace and keep moving in the right direction. That beats quitting before you start, don't you agree?

(Chopsticks, eh? Both parts?)

In the Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob

Principles Of Personal Defense by Jeff Cooper
 
5Wire said:
A bit harsh, I'd say. Ya can't learn if you don't try. Or, if I can learn how, anyone can. Take your pick. With practice for confidence and exposure to the right training, he's better off with something he can learn with than avoiding gun ownership.
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As GruntIII has already pointed out, he never once mentioned that Pendative should not own a gun. He merely pointed out that he should not carry. I'm afraid I have to agree with him. Note - I do NOT have the professional experience that he has to back up my opinion, just years of study and discussion with people like him. If you're going to carry a sidearm for your defense, be ready in your head to use it. If you're of the opinion that it will be taken away and used against you, I'm thinking it probably will be. Rather than give a sidearm up to the bad guy, carry spray.

One thing that Pendative has in his mindset that I agree with, is what sounds like a commitment to avoidence. That is by far (imo) the best defense we have. But sometimes, the bad guys (or gals) will not give you that choice.

Pendative may well be a great guy, but he does have an "it's acceptable to lose this fight" attitude. Ok for him. I just don't want somebody like that at my six if the fan gets hit. At least not if he's willing to supply the attacker with his gun, rather than be prepared to use it. He should buy several guns. One in each flavor. DAO, DA/SA, SAO, Wheel gun, etc. Buy LOTS of ammo. Go to the range a lot. Meet a bunch of great people. Have big fun, build mad skills. Enjoy his life, and think about why he might want to carry a gun he's no intention of using, until it's probably too late.

The larger of his worries seems to be not wanting to provide an attacking wolf with a functional sidearm. Best safety against this would be to carry an empty holster rather than an empty chamber.


/j
 
pendentive,
Check out your local NRA Personal Protection Class. You will get some basic instruiction and get to fire a variety of different types of pistols.
Your most important defense tool is your mind.
Some of the best firearms advice I have ever received came from Louis Awerbuck:
"Stay away from the man that says there is only one way to do something, he will get you killed. You have to figure out what works for you."
 
I tend to agree with GruntII & Janitor. Certainly, Pendative has the right to carry whatever he (I'm assuming "he" here) chooses in whatever mode he likes - but utilizing an empty chamber & safety on carry mode as a last ditch stall tactic in the event the gun is taken away is, IMO, a little frightening. If you carry, it's your responsibility to keep the gun from falling into the wrong hands.

Be that as it may, if that's a no compromise issue I'd suggest a S&W revolver with the Magna trigger conversion. Go to http://www.tarnhelm.com and you can read up. It is a conversion that requires you to wear a ring on your trigger finger for the gun to operate. That way if your gun falls into the wrong hands it cannot be used against you or anyone else, except as a club. That is the shortcoming of a plan to carry with an empty chamber & safety on: while it might give you a few additional seconds to get away the perp will figure it out & possibly use your weapon on a bystander.
 
The pocket-ability of the gun--which was P.'s first critereon, seems to have been forgotten in some suggestions. You really think a new handgun carrier is going to find it realistic to pocket a HKP7? Or a double-stack LDA? I don't.

Now, on the proposed mode of carry. I'm trying to think of a situation where having an empty chamber and a safety on would be preferable to having a weapon concealed, fully loaded, and ready for action. Is it the possibility of unarmed hand-to-hand that has P. concerned here? As someone familiar with knives, I can't believe that he'd prefer to use a knife against an armed opponent, or that he'd fear an unarmed opponent if he himself had a blade. So it must be unarmed combat. And it must be unavoidable unarmed combat, because the first line of defense is obviously to run away.

Is that right, pendentive? Is your concern about having your gun taken away in unavoidable unarmed combat? Honestly, that's a concern I can understand. I mean, if someone is determined to have a physical showdown with me, and there's no way for me to get away from it, and I don't have good reason to think they're going to be able to seriously injure or kill me (let's say they're drunk and just getting in over their heads), then I'm not going to be justified in pulling my gun. At that point I s'pose I just need to be damn sure it's secure, and incorporate keeping it secure into the way I manage the confrontation; 'cause if someone's stupid enough to provoke an unavoidable fight, who knows what they'll do with a gun?

I'd like to know if this is the kind of concern we're dealing with, or if it's something I haven't thought of? Anyone have any other ideas?
 
Bersa Thunder in 380 acp.

Lightweight
Compact
Reliable
Combat Accurate
Manual Safety
Passive Safeties
Inexpensive, but not "cheap"

Carrying in Condition 3 is a viable concept, proven by the Isrealis. It's not for me, but I'm not gonna bother arguing against it. Obviously the handgun won't be carried cocked, locked and empty. However once a round is chambered, the quickest way to make the pistol safe would be to apply a manual safety. When the situation warrants, the chambered could then be cleared.
 
Why not just wait 'till attacked to buy the gun...

...I'm with GruntII and Janitor. You need to either learn more about guns & shooting, or forget carrying. Not only would you be a danger to yourself, but to every later victim of the newly armed BG you might have just supplied as a result of your multi-step time waster draw.
 
I would seriously look into the HK P7 series (which they just stopped making) It has a cocking lever that must be squeezed in order to fire the gun. Most BG's would be somewhat confused about how to fire it I think.
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EXACTLY what I was going to say! The P7 is the safest semi there is for CCW. If you just hand one to somebody (with empty chamber of course) and ask them to "fire it," it almost never happens. If they aren't some kind of gun person, they have no idea about the 12 pound cocking lever mounted on the front. They try to pull the trigger, they look for a safety to click off, they just look silly.

So it isnt' going to go off "by itself" even if it falls off the Empire State Building. And a bad guy that gets it is almost surely going to fail to figure it out. At least right at that second and under pressure.

Two actions: squeeze cocking lever with 12 pounds of force. Continue to hold it with only 1.5 pounds or so. Pull trigger. If you drop it or have it knocked out of your hand, the cocking lever pops right back out.

It is some kind of crime against humanity that H&K has quit making these!! SOG is advertising police turn-in PSP's for $7xx something. I would have already bought one but I've been busy stockpiling ammo!

Gregg
 
I also agree with GruntII and Janitor. Go ahead and buy a handgun or two or three, take them to the range and plink away. But don't even think about carrying until you are familiar enough with how they function to realize the fallacy of what you intend by your requirements.
 
I would like to carry a knife, does anybody know were, I can get sheath with combo lock?


Or mabe a lockblade with a with rubber blade that pops out first?

What you are saying is like muzzling a K-9. get training dude. Not to be mean.

BUt really. " I just want to carry for the heck of it."

C-mon now... whats the heck of it? To show your buds. If you have gun you might have to use it.

And if you dont know how. You might die.
 
thanks for the suggestions...

Ok....Beretta 84 in nickel/walnut:

84n.jpg



HK P7
p7psp_nills.jpg



Para Carry 12
carry12.jpg



Bersa Thunder in wood
425x319.aspx




I do hear what you guys are saying...and no, I'm not unfamiliar with guns, nor am I 'untrained'.....and yes, I am an man. :p


Here are some thoughts to chew on:

1 - I partially agree with the rhetoric above...I don't really need a firearm for self defence. I've figured out already that in 99.999% of what I do in life, I will have no need for a handgun. That's my life, not yours. .

Dont' get me wrong....I am grateful for those that put their own lives in harm's way. But that's not the path I've chosen. If I get into a pickle and can't get out of it via the martial arts I've learned, the "run like hell" tactic, or the use of knives...then I'll have the gun as my last ditch effort...and with proper practice, I'll be able to have it ready in a matter of seconds.


2 - I refuse to be an AD statistic. I don't want to even tempt the fates. That is first and foremost on my mind. No hair trigger. No round in the chamber. I don't need it. Maybe you need it? I don't.


3 - I would like to carry a handgun in a bag or in my pocket. It would be for fun/plinking/shooting/showing off/coolness/etc. more than self-defense. Those of you who carry for SD only might not understand this...but out here in my neck of the woods the rabbits outnumber BGs 100 to 1. If I carry a gun, it's going to be for recreation first, SD second.


4 - regarding my identity...it's no secret. read all about it: http://www.kosterknives.com I just like the handle "pendentive".




All suggestions are still welcome. I like what I've seen so far. My visual preferences tend toward stainless/wood combos...
 
Grunt was a bit mean about it, but it's true. You really shouldn't be carrying a gun like that. With any modern firearm, there is no chance of a negligent discharge if you don't touch the trigger. Guns don't just 'go off', like they do in the movies. Guns don't fire when you drop them.

Look at revolvers...Revolvers have NO safeties. None. All they have is a long trigger pull. And yet half of the members on this board probably carry a revolver. Why? Because they have proven to be safe.

If you want to go safer, get a gun with a safety. Safeties are made so that you can easily disengage them with the flick of your thumb should you need to use them. If you get a handgun with a safety, I GUARANTEE you will be able to carry that gun around until the day you die without having to worry about it 'going off'.

Guns go off because stupid people make them go off. It's as simple as that. Learn to use a gun, and this fear will dissapear.
 
N3rday:
With any modern firearm, there is no chance of a negligent discharge if you don't touch the trigger. Guns don't just 'go off', like they do in the movies. Guns don't fire when you drop them.
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Err, well, you have to presume that a gun can go off under unusual circumstances such as dropping a gun with a broken drop safety spring or a sticky hammer block for example. No flame here, just a statement.

Then there's the car keys that could get inserted in the trigger of a cocked Glock in your pocket without a holster; your finger isn't the only trigger pulling device to be considered.

So there's always mischance to be presumed on behalf safe gun handling.

Pendentive has been given a bunch of good suggestions to meet his requirements.

I still stand by the Para Ordnance LDAs for the rope, belt, and suspenders approach even before the slide is racked. I like the little ones better for concealment. Guns & Ammo story link

976689920-1.jpg

P7s are also quite remarkably safe. I own two but they are vulnerable to ADs from being dropped if the drop safety spring is busted or missing and there's "one in the pipe." Overall, any semiauto with a manual safety will meet Pendentive's requirements.

I mostly carry a S&W 5 shooter J-Frame revolver (642) in a Uncle Mike's pocket holster. It's a lightweight gun, easy to pocket, nothing to snag and, as N3rday points out, a long (stiff) trigger pull.

Nice cutlery, Pendentive.


BTW, all,

I discovered that "Pendentive" is an archectural term for the roughly triangular supports for a round dome over a square area. FWIW.
 
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