Which lever action for home defense?

[CraigC]

Wow, I need my waders for this thread.

It is laughable that some actually believe a pistol would be a better tool for the job than a 16" repeating carbine. Some obviously have some weird misconceptions about leverguns and have zero knowledge of weapon retention. Believe me, nobody who grabs your muzzle as you round a corner is at an advantage. Step back, lever the barrel into the intruder and press the trigger.

The notion that a .357 rifle will be stop a fight any less quickly than a "real rifle" is equally silly. Most .357 loads will gain 400-500fps in a rifle barrel and that makes for nasty results on the other end with good jacketed bullets.

 

[jiminhobesound]

Seems to me that 1. you WILL buy a lever action rifle. 2. you WILL buy it in 357. Consequently, you really only wanted opinions on which lever action. Marlin has been making lever action guns for a very long time. They have a grrat tradition as a Deer hunting rifle.

 

[Kliegl]

N4Z, I don't have to check numbers. A pistol cartridge carbine is something that was invented (or, at least popularized) by non-centerfire rifle hunting regulation states. If you're going to have a RIFLE, use a RIFLE'S cartridge. Enough said.

As for the disrespectful post from Craig C, I fail to see what is laughable about a gun with more ammo that is semi-automatic being preferable to a lower ammo count, manual action gun at close ranges. At ranges over 25 yards, sure, but, this discussion was for an apartment.

Secondly, I'll refer you to Massad Ayoob's comments on close quarters weapon retention, as it is obvious you have a lot you could learn from his work.

 

[Shanghai Dan]

Personally, I can see a real reason for a lever for HD over a shotgun (and I use a lever for this very reason): I value my ears - I make my money with my ears. The muzzle blast of my Rossi 357 lever is MUCH more tame and quiet than my Kel Tec SUB2000 in 9mm, and absolutely nothing compared to any shotgun. I value my ears, I value my life. A 357 out of a 20" barrel is a fearsome round (especially with 9 more following), and I won't be permanently deafened if used in an HD situation.

 

[_N4Z_]

N4Z, I don't have to check numbers. A pistol cartridge carbine is something that was invented (or, at least popularized) by non-centerfire rifle hunting regulation states. If you're going to have a RIFLE, use a RIFLE'S cartridge. Enough said.

Well, it is your choice to spout the word, without being knowledgable of all the facts. It's your opinion after all. In my opinion you are wrong. But hey, some water is there just in case curiosity gets the better of ya. Haahaa, stay thirsty my friends!!

 

[Kliegl]

Well, it is your choice to spout the word, without being knowledgable of all the facts. It's your opinion after all. In my opinion you are wrong. But hey, some water is there just in case curiosity gets the better of ya. Haahaa, stay thirsty my friends!!

So, let me see if I have this right. You post a link to an article citing that the "cowboy needed his independence" and the "lever gun that shot the same cartridge as his pistol was just the perfect thing." and then it goes on to talk about the .357 mag, the .38 special, and the .44 mag as being the perfect cartridge for that. I'll leave the integral problem with that reasoning as an exercise for the reader.

Then, when I comment that a carbine does not give "much more" muzzle energy than a pistol, and that, if one were to have a rifle, one should have a rifle's cartridge, you have the temerity to call me wrong and link anecdotal testing that, when read, yields a whopping 500 fps on average gain over a pistol cartridge, while totally ignoring the fact that centerfire rifle cartridges range about 1000 fps more than a pistol cartridge carbine.

One wonders if you have actually ever shot any of these calibers mentioned, seeing as how you think pistol rounds, when shot out of a rifle, somehow compete with actual rifle rounds.

 

[Red October]

I have a Marlin and have never had any complaints with it; it is as reliable as anything I own. I think .357 (or .45LC) would be a great choice. .357 is probably a better choice if you're cost conscious. If you're worried about over penetration of walls, you could always load it with Glazers or something similar. They aren't cheap, but they were developed specifically to prevent overpenetration (originally for air marshals on planes).
Personally, I use a CX4 Storm in .40S&W for the same purpose. The Storms aren't as cheap as the used to be, so they might be outside your budget. The .40 has plenty of capability at distances you face inside a house, and the Storm reloads quickly. Statistically, most gun fights involving civilians last less than 5 shots, so quick reloading isn't really that big a deal, it's mostly for peace of mind.
I agree with earlier postings that your hearing will be better after firing a .357 out of a carbine as compared to a .223 or a shotgun. When I shoot the Storm, it isn't nearly as loud as the M96 pistol in the same chambering.
I don't have any experience with Rossi firearms, although I do find myself looking at the Ranch Hand in .45LC.
I recall that you posted earlier regarding the CX4, and got similar negative remarks about pistol caliber carbines. Personally, I believe they have their place. I think there are a few hundred or so SWAT teams using HK MP5s or UMPs that would agree. Get what you like. If you let anyone brow-beat you into making a different choice, you probably won't be happy long term.

 

[Red October]

I have a Marlin and have never had any complaints with it; it is as reliable as anything I own. I think .357 (or .45LC) would be a great choice. .357 is probably a better choice if you're cost conscious. If you're worried about over penetration of walls, you could always load it with Glazers or something similar. They aren't cheap, but they were developed specifically to prevent overpenetration (originally for air marshals on planes).
Personally, I use a CX4 Storm in .40S&W for the same purpose. The Storms aren't as cheap as the used to be, so they might be outside your budget. The .40 has plenty of capability at distances you face inside a house, and the Storm reloads quickly. Statistically, most gun fights involving civilians last less than 5 shots, so quick reloading isn't really that big a deal, it's mostly for peace of mind.
I agree with earlier postings that your hearing will be better after firing a .357 out of a carbine as compared to a .223 or a shotgun. When I shoot the Storm, it isn't nearly as loud as the M96 pistol in the same chambering.
I don't have any experience with Rossi firearms, although I do find myself looking at the Ranch Hand in .45LC.
I recall an earlier posting regarding the CX4, and similar negative remarks about pistol caliber carbines. Personally, I believe they have their place. I think there are a few hundred or so SWAT teams using HK MP5s or UMPs that would agree. Get what you like. If you let anyone brow-beat you into making a different choice, you probably won't be happy long term.

 

[_N4Z_]

Kiegl, you think what you want, chip.

OP solicited opinions about .357 carbines for HD which I offered. I do own a Marlin 1894c, which I think I mentioned. Short, simple, quite handy, and more than adequate for the task that he/she inquired about. I have tested 110gr and 125gr loads that yielded impressive results. The links posted are relevent to the original inquiry and also filled with good info. Additionally, Paco is a well known source of good experience. Why do you feel the need to marginalize them??

Now I think you're both wrong, and grumpy.

 

[ripp]

may I aks why the lever, instead of say, an sks?

same price range, but much better performance in almost any category you care to name. It is faster to disengage a safety than to thumb back a hammer or work a lever. The autoloader cycles 2x as fast as anyone can accurately fire a lever action in repeat shot scenarios, too. The SKS and softpoints is a decent deer rifle, to 150 yds, the 357 is limited to more like 100 yds, or its jhp won't expand reliably at impact.

 

[ripp]

the pistol is normally a lot better choice than any longarm, for the simple reason that you can ccw it around the house and have it when trouble comes, as vs running to get the longarm that you probably wont get to in time. Remember, few bad guys make you shoot them, if you will just be smart enough to leave them an escape route. So it's not really about power or accuracy, it's about getting a gun pointed at the bad guy, in time for him to see it and leave.

 

[Kliegl]

Kiegl, you think what you want, chip.

OP solicited opinions about .357 carbines for HD which I offered. I do own a Marlin 1894c, which I think I mentioned. Short, simple, quite handy, and more than adequate for the task that he/she inquired about. I have tested 110gr and 125gr loads that yielded impressive results. The links posted are relevent to the original inquiry and also filled with good info. Additionally, Paco is a well known source of good experience. Why do you feel the need to marginalize them??

Now I think you're both wrong, and grumpy.

How does that make me wrong about saying a rifle cartridge offers superior ballistics to a pistol cartridge? Perhaps you need to reread what I wrote.

 

[_N4Z_]

Yes rifle cartridge ballistics are typically superior to pistol cartridge. So what?

Point of order - That is not the subject of this thread.
Would a pistol firing carbine be a good HD implement? Sure it would. Is it the best? Maybe yes, maybe no, maybe somewhere in between. Depends a lot on the person driving. Are there better options? Perhaps.

I think you are wrong about a small lever pistol carbine not being a good HD tool. My opinion, you are absolutley entitled to yours.
I think you are wrong for panning valid evidence when it is presented to substantiate that claim, when it is counter to your position.
I think you are wrong for calling into question my experience, when you do not know me or my background. Bush league moves.

Bored now.

I see you're somewhat new. Welcome to THR.

 

[bigfatdave]

why the lever, instead of say, an sks?

length?
weight?

 

[zxcvbob]

N4Z, I don't have to check numbers. A pistol cartridge carbine is something that was invented (or, at least popularized) by non-centerfire rifle hunting regulation states. If you're going to have a RIFLE, use a RIFLE'S cartridge. Enough said.

At close range, .357 Magnum from a carbine has roughly the same ballistics as a .30-30, and the .357's magazine holds twice as many rounds. .357 practice ammo is also cheaper. The biggest disadvantage of the .357 is finding one for sale; used ones don't exist and new ones are expensive when you do find them. Used .30-30's, both Marlin and Winchester, are pretty easy to find.

 

[briansmithwins]

At close range, .357 Magnum from a carbine has roughly the same ballistics as a .30-30

For values of 'rough' that include a difference in energy of 1000 ft/lbs.

125gr .357 Mag is listed as having 710 ft/lbs. 130gr .30-30 comes out to 1799 ft/lbs.

Another point I don't think anyone has brought up is this: What is the bad guys are wearing body armor? Even Level II body armor will keep out .357 but utterly fail against rifle cartridges.

BSW

 

[Averageman]

That Marlin was dropped down a canyon. Both the stock and the barrel took a heck of a ding on the way down. I bought it for $150 and the barrel and stock had the damaged area's removed and it is a servicable H/D gun, deer rifle and hog gun.
You can't beat a Marlin.
BTW That 870 beside it was $150 also.
You can do a lot if you have the tools and go for it.
Thanks
A/M

 

[ironhead7544]

I would go with the M92. Make sure it works 100% with the load you pick. I had a 16 and 20 M92 in 357. Very fast and slick handling. I would pick a 110 or 125 gr 38 Special +P if it would feed. Will give about the same velocity as a 4 inch 357 revolver with a lot less noise. Contact stevesgunz to slick up the action yourself.

 

[Maverick223]

length?
weight? [WRT the recommendation of an SKS]

Valid points...OTOH a Vz.58 or an M1 Carbine?

At close range, .357 Magnum from a carbine has roughly the same ballistics as a .30-30

Not hardly; me thinks you confuse the .357Mag. with the 7.62x39mm (which is still less than the .30-30WCF).

 

[Cosmoline]

One wonders if you have actually ever shot any of these calibers mentioned, seeing as how you think pistol rounds, when shot out of a rifle, somehow compete with actual rifle rounds.

They .357 and .44 Magnum out of a carbine are on par with intermediate rifle cartridges. The .44 Mag out of a carbine can even exceed the performance of the .30-30 at close ranges, though beyond 100 yards you are likely better off with the .30-30.

This really only matters when you're talking about hunting game, though. For home defense purposes *any* of them are good choices with the right bullets, and it really comes down to personal preferences and familiarity.

 

[Nicodemus38]

the problem here is that no one is willing to accept the increase in muzzle energy from switching from a 4 inch barrel to an 18 inch barrel.

lets look, with simple facts that have been 'set in stone" so to speak.

when barrel length goes down, velocity tends to suffer and reduce bullet energy. reduced energy means it doesnt perform as well.

no one would laugh if you put the highest tested gold dot or hornady 357 mag load in your snub nose, or carried it in your 8 inch revolver. so why is everyone getting their panties bunched up about it being insufficient when used in 18 inches of barrel?

these small bullets would get pushed beyond design limits and would most likely have the same issues for the short barrel 44 loads that get pushed from a long barrel ie massive deformation that may render them not so greatat penetration.

simply upgrade to the fbi 158 gr swhp, and youll have the best of everything.

 

[nipprdog]

For values of 'rough' that include a difference in energy of 1000 ft/lbs.

125gr .357 Mag is listed as having 710 ft/lbs. 130gr .30-30 comes out to 1799 ft/lbs.

Post fail.

You chose the greatest firearm reference sight, Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_Magnum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-30_Winchester

You're comparing 357 HG results VS 357 lever action results.

As previously stated, and posted here, to the blind, 357 speeds from a 4-6" barrell VS a 16-20" barrell are SUBSTANTIAL.

 

[_N4Z_]

125gr .357 Mag is listed as having 710 ft/lbs. 130gr .30-30 comes out to 1799 ft/lbs.

Another point I don't think anyone has brought up is this: What is the bad guys are wearing body armor? Even Level II body armor will keep out .357 but utterly fail against rifle cartridges.

Doing the math that .357 in dia. 125gr slug pushed from an 18" barrel @ 2100 fps yields an energy rating of around 1220 ft/lbs.
A 30-30 running a .308" dia. 130gr slug from a 20' barrel @ 2400 produces around 1660 ft/lbs.
(Speer Manual #14)

So yes the 30-30 runs about 440ft/lbs higher. Don't know where your 710ft/lb. number came from.

And here is an unscientific test done on what these guys are calling Level2 body armor. Various pistol round impacts on the vest, shot from pistols. I assume the same rounds fired from a longer barrel would do more damge.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot15.htm

 

[nipprdog]

Don't know where your 710ft/lb. number came from.

Read post 72.

 

[zxcvbob]

simply upgrade to the fbi 158 gr swhp, and youll have the best of everything.

I think a soft lead hollowpoint would explode at those velocities. I'd use a hard lead bullet (but not too hard); a RNFP or a DEWC.