Which Milsurp rifle to think about?

[Deer Hunter]

Paycheck's in, and I've been seriously thinking about buying an old Milsurp bolt-action rifle. However, I know nothing about them. I've been looking through these pages, and I have seen many specimens of what I would love to have. However, one combination keeps alluding me.

What I want for this rifle is as follows:

1. Bayonet
2. Uses stripper clips (or has stripper clips readily availible)
3. An ammo source that is not near drying up anytime soon
4. No more than 150 dollars for the rifle

Is there anything out there that fits my bill? A mauser? Mosin? K31? Give me some advice, C&R gurus.

 

[GTSteve03]

Mosin, easily.

1. Big honkin' bayonets
2. Stripper clips no problem
3. 7.62x54R has been around 100 years, its the 30'06 of Russia.
4. Buy them all day long under $150

 

[monsternav]

Let's see here.

Bayonet - All but the Finn M39's generally have a relatively inexpensive bayonet available. A lot of guns come with a bayonet and some accessories (at least online).

Uses stripper clips (or has stripper clips readily availible) - 30-06 has strippers available, but not a lot of guns at the $150 level. 8mm on stripppers is still available. K31 chargers are out there. Good Mosin strippers are very rare. Enfield strippers are available.

An ammo source that is not near drying up anytime soon - Commercial ammo? MilSurp? Cheapest Mil-Surp: 8mm, 7.62x54R, 30-06. Not quite as cheap: 7.5x55 Swiss, 7.5x54 French, 8x56R (maybe, don't have one, but I don't see it where I shop). Almost all are commercially made, so unless you are worried about Mil-Surp drying up, ammo shouldn't be a problem. Some of the more oddball calibers can get pricey though.

A Yugo Mauser would work well, as would a Mosin variant (M91, M91/30, M38, M44, M91/59). Ammo abounds.

K31's are great. GP11 is great (Swiss Mil-Surp ammo), but both are more rare than Mausers or Mosins. Now that Wolf is importing ammo, there should be a steady supply of it around.

Lee-Enfields are excellent. Not much Mil-Surp (if any) ammo left though. S&B makes some good moderately priced stuff. I don't know if it is in the Wolf Gold Ammo line.

Hope this helps.

 

[.45Guy]

Yugo 24/47

Fleet Farm has Yugo 24/47's for $119. They come with the bayonet, and various cosmolene encrusted "accesories."

 

[Technosavant]

With those criteria, a M-N. I love my K31, but bayonets are very expensive, stripper clips are almost nonexistent (but you can get aftermarket magazines, but I can't vouch for their quality), and the ammo source, while plentiful, is more expensive.

A Mosin-Nagant, a truckload of ammo, and a slip-on recoil pad can all be had for under $150 (the K31 is drying up at that price point for the moment).

 

[Deer Hunter]

Alright. Right now, people seem to favor the Mosin. Tell me more about these guns. They've got a bayonet, the ammo is still plentiful, can be had for under 150. What about the stripper clips, though? They arn't really needed, but I would like to have some for my gun.

Also, how large is this gun?

Edit: Google is an amazin thing. Now, if I were to buy this gun, from my understanding there are many different types. Which would be the most economical choice?

 

[.45Guy]

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Yugoslavian_VZ24_47_8mm_Mauser_Package.html
You used to be able to find bandoleers of 8mm still on strippers. I haven't shopped around lately, but that was the case a year or so ago.

 

[monsternav]

Steve says strippers clips are no problem. I've never got any that worked. So...

Anyway

www.mosinnagant.net will probably answer all your questions.

M91, M91/30, M38, M44, M91/59 are just the Soviet/East Bloc versions. Finnish version are more expensive, but of higher quality (generally).

M91, M91/30 - 29? inch barrels. Very long.

M38, M44, M91/59 - 18 inch (or so) barrels. M38's have no bayonet, and are very handy/pointable. M44's have a built in side folder. 91/59's also do not have a bayonet. Sorry about that, I forgot.

 

[Deer Hunter]

Alright, so now we've got another contender. I will reiterate that I know next to nothing about military surplus rifles, so bare with me.

The 7.92z57mm round will have more kick than the 7.62x54mm, I assume? I've always heard that the Mosin Nagant was a hard kicking gun. However, I own a 6.5 pound twelve gauge that I shoot 3" magnums out of. Would that be any simular in recoil of the milsurp guns?

How well do these two guns stack up against eachother, in your own personal experiences? Accuracy, reliability (both seem reliable, they are bolt guns, afterall), ect?

I'm kind of leaning toward the Mosin, since I found a place that I can get stripper clips from. What problems to people have with stripper clips in mosins?

Alright, it's between a Carbine and a full length rifle Mosin. Nothing in between 18" and 29"? Damn. I assume the 18" kicks like a mule.

 

[Stiletto Null]

I love my Yugo M48. It's one of the Mauser variants out there (basically a Clone98k.

Stripper clips are plentiful; I have like a hundred of them just sitting around, and Turk ammo comes in bandoliers stripped up. Bayonets are also plentiful.

One should run you around $120~$150, in good shape.

 

[GTSteve03]

Steve says strippers clips are no problem. I've never got any that worked. So...Anyway

I admit I didn't do any checking to see if all the Mosin stripper clips that are out there actually work, as I don't own one myself. But they are out there.

Part of it may be how the cartridges are loaded into the clip. Since it's a rimmed cartridge, I think you have to be careful about getting them to line up right.

For the Mosin, the 91/30, the longer-barreled one, are usually the cheapest, and the lightest in recoil due to heavier weight. Also, having a longer sight radius means they're a bit more accurate.

 

[Deer Hunter]

So, I guess it all comes down to prices of ammo and the guns themselves. Mosins seem to be a bit cheaper, but the lack of good stripper clips irks me. There are none that are reliable?

The whole reason I'm thinking of a military bolt action is because I may hold off on getting a 10mm and just buy a CZ75 instead. With the money left over, I'll purchase one of these rifles.

 

[Cosmoline]

Mosin-Nagant stripper clips are easy to find. GOOD Mosin-Nagant stripper clips are VERY HARD to find. I don't even bother using the cruddy ones, and almost all of the ones on the market now are cruddy. Folks who find the good ones hold onto them. There's one big difference between the 7.62x54R and the 8x57JS--the rim. The 54R does better if you load it one at a time. Otherwise rimlock is a danger.

Mauser stripper clips work a lot better and you don't have to worry about rimlock, but Mausers tend to be more sensitive to headspace variation because there's less slop and flex in the cartridge design.

Power wise they're very similar, though it's easier to find new production 54R. Surplus is still available for both, but 54R ball was still being cranked out until very recent times and is probably still being made. There's an OCEAN of the stuff from the communist block laying around. 8x57JS ball production came to a violent end in 1945 for the most part. Some nations continued producing it, but the supply is starting to dry up. Another problem is US SAAMI production 8x57JS is dramatically downloaded to allow it to be fired in old Commission Mausers without detonation (in theory). This is a stupid restriction, since the 8x57J Commission Mausers are antique collectors items and most of the folks actively shooting them use gentle handloads with properly sized .318" bullets. The Turk JS conversion and hyrbidized 88's were heat treated and fed a diet of that suicidal Turkey Ball, so if they haven't blown up yet it's doubtful they ever will.

Design wise they're night and day. The Mosin is a fairly archaic split bridge design that uses a three piece bolt and a single stack magazine. It's an extremely strong design but represents a road not traveled. The Mauser '98 is the precursor to almost all the modern hunting and sniper rifles of the world, and is likely to seem much more familiar. Whether you like one or the other or both comes down to personal preference.

 

[Deer Hunter]

Thanks for the information, Cos. If the Mosin is an archaic design, how does the action work compared to that of a Mauser? I'm assuming that you work the bolt, that cocks the gun, and you just pull the trigger when you have jacked another round into the chamber. This is how all bolt-actions I have seen (except my 1912 youth .22 single shot bolt action) worked.

 

[C-grunt]

I keep a M38 in the trunk of my car. Its a great gun for the 105 dollars I spent for it. Its not the most accurate rifle, but I can hit a torso sized target at 100 yards off hand. It works like any other bolt, racking a round cocks the weapon.

The short barrelled Mossins kick....a lot!

 

[Deer Hunter]

For those of you that have handled and fired both the full-length Mosins and the Carbine mosins, which would you prefer? I'm leaning toward a short-barrel carbine version, but I'd like to get some imput on both.

 

[Euclidean]

I had an 1891/30 and got rid of it after experiencing the M44. Much easier to handle, much easier to fire accurately.

 

[Stiletto Null]

The Turk JS conversion and hyrbidized 88's were heat treated and fed a diet of that suicidal Turkey Ball, so if they haven't blown up yet it's doubtful they ever will.

lol

1951 Turk isn't so bad. It's riding right up at the upper end of JS pressure spec, but in a properly headspaced rifle, you ought to be OK. If you start seeing flattened primers or (gasp) EXTRUDED primers...you should probably put away that batch of ammo.

HOWEVER, Turkish strippers (the sprung kind, not the fixed kind) are generally incredible. So slick...

...

Get your minds out of the gutter.

***

The only Mauser ammo I've fired has been Turk, PMC, and some questionable-quality Ecuadorian. The PMC felt positively weak compared to the Turk, and the Ecuadorian wasn't exactly consistent from shot to shot.

 

[roo_ster]

I think your rqs call for either a 98 mauser of some type or a mosin.

The easiest way to get a decent rifle the first go 'round is to buy one of the M48 Yugo mausers in 8x57 that Mitchell's Mausers brought in...but from somebody other than MM (they are con artists, liars, and C&R scum of the earth...who happen to have brought over some really nice mausers).

If you look, you can find a nice M48 in your budget.

If you want to risk getting a little cosmo on your hands, a Czech mauser will be right fine.

Or you could buy TWO Turk mausers or one Turk Mauser and one mosin.*

Also, you must plan your second and third milsurps. For your second, get whichever one you didn't get first (mauser or mosin). For your third, give yourself a treat and buy a Swiss K31.

I must warn you, getting into milsurps is like Lays Tater chips sprinkled with crack cocaine.

Good luck.

* You do have a C&R03 FFL, don't you? No? You could save the cost of the FFL on your first milsurp purchase. Heck, I saved the cost of my C&R on a purchase from Brownells.com last week...twice over.

 

[student]

Rimlock on a Mosin shouldn't occur if the gun is properly adjusted. There is a device that holds the top round well above the one below it so rimock can't occur. My M44 did not come properly adjusted, so I fixed it. My beef with the Mosin is the short straight bolt handle that has little leverage to open the bolt. Considering the cost of the gun, there is a pricy fix to buy a longer bent bolt handle. By the way I am on the lookout for a Finnish M39 at a decent price.

 

[Deer Hunter]

The main reason I am looking at a mosin over a mauser is because of ammo concerns. 8x57 seems to be a little rarer than 7.62x54. I love the look of a mauser, but they also cost a bit more than a mosin. Right now, affordability is one of my main concerns. After purchasing a 1000 dollar DSA FAL, I need something cheap to play with while that gun is being built.

Which mosin carbines can have a bayonet attached to them?

 

[Cosmoline]

Thanks for the information, Cos. If the Mosin is an archaic design, how does the action work compared to that of a Mauser? I'm assuming that you work the bolt, that cocks the gun, and you just pull the trigger when you have jacked another round into the chamber. This is how all bolt-actions I have seen (except my 1912 youth .22 single shot bolt action) worked.

You should be able to work it fine, but the bolt handle moves through the receiver at the bridge and then acts as a backup lug. This is radically different from the Mauser design. The Mosin safety is also totally different from the Mauser's. It locks the back third of the bolt and the pin to the receiver and actually changes the format of the bolt itself, making it impossible to fire. The Mauser's bolt does not function this way, nor to my knowledge to any modern rifles. But like the Mauser '98 it is a cock on opening design not a cock on closing and if you know how to work a bolt action you can figure it out. The bolt stop is actuated along with the sear, so you have to hold the trigger down to relase the bolt--when the bolt is back all the way obviously.

 

[grimjaw]

For those of you that have handled and fired both the full-length Mosins and the Carbine mosins, which would you prefer?

At $100/rifle, both!

I'm probably stating the obvious here, but the full length rifle is too cumbersome to lug around, IMO. The carbine length (M38/M44/etc), while heavy, is easier to handle and still has an acceptably long sight radius to be useful. The M38 will be the lighter of the two, of course; no bayonet.

Regarding recoil, onestly I can't tell much difference between the two. After about 20 rounds with either I'm ready to take a break. The carbines tend to be louder with much more muzzle flash. I shudder to think what it would sound like with a muzzle brake. The full length rifle is probably just as loud, it's just that the end of the barrel extends into the next county.

Keep in mind that they aren't usually going to be tack drivers. That's one of the reasons I've had my eye out for a K31. Still love shooting the Mosins, though, and at least one usually always goes with me to the range.

jmm

I must warn you, getting into milsurps is like Lays Tater chips sprinkled with crack cocaine.

Truth.

 

[Cueball]

I've got a short barrel Mosin and I have no problem shooting it with relatively good accuracy. I'd say go for it. I don't regret purchasing mine.

 

[Kymasabe]

Deer Hunter...The M44 carbine is the only Mosin carbine with a bayonet. It's also (semi) permentatly attached. It doesn't twist and remove like most bayo's, instead, a collar slides down and the bayo folds back against the stock. Mosin M38 carbines are basically the M44 without the bayonet lug and 91/59's are older 91/30's that have been cut down to carbine length and also are bayo-less.

The M44 carbine is usually only accurate with the bayonet either extended or removed. (There is one screw holding it on so it can be removed and reinstalled at will). The bayonet folded affects barrel harmonics and most M44's won't shoot as accurately with it folded back.

I have a '52 Polish M44 and it's extremely accurate, much more accurate than my re-arsenaled '43 Russian M38.

Suggestion, if you're looking for a Mosin, it's best to stay away from WW2 years as quality control was lacking in the most popular arsenal cranking out M44's (Ishevsk...arrow in triangle stamped on barrel). Tula arsenaled Mosins are generally better made (arrow in star stamped on barrel). And after WW2, Russia moved their production equipment and M44's were made in Poland, Hungary, Romania, and later China (known as the Chinese Type 53).

Argueably, one of the most accurate Mosins are the Finn M39's. Finn's took Russian 91/30's and rebarreled and restocked them. But you won't find one of them for $150.

Recoil? I don't find the recoil to be too bad on my carbines. The roar is impressive and the muzzle flash will scare the crap out of the guy next to you at the bench...but millions of Russian soldiers shooting thousands and thousands of rounds I doubt ever cried about the recoil of the Mosin.
There are lots of them for sale out there, SOG, Aim, J&G, InterOrdnance, Samco,...and others. Lots of ammo available. I just bought 440 rounds of 80's production Russian ammo for less than $40 and a few months ago bought 440 rounds of Polish surplus for around $35. Both good stuff.