Which of my two rifles would be your choice for the upcoming deer season?

[Hokkmike]

CZ and Marlin currently tied at 41.8% each. Don't hunt at 16%. Took the CZ out today to check the sighting. Two inch group at 100 yards.

CZ has a very light crisp trigger. Next week I'll give the Marlin and Mr. Skinner a go....

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

I would think a solid copper 200gr 45 cal bullet out of the 45 Colt cartridge in a 16in barrel would be a great option. Be even better if it was threaded with a suppressor!

 

[dranrab]

The 223 will kill deer but your margin for error is much smaller than with the 45 LC.

I have never understood the use of "margin for error" in this context. If you miss the vitals with any rifle, you have created a goat rope.

 

[dranrab]

The 223 is a decidedly good deer killer. It flat out wrecks lungs and hearts. Use bullets that are designed for medium game or those that have proven to be good deer bullets.

 

[ArtP]

I didn't read through every reply, just a couple dozen. Couple factors:

The CZ 527 has a 1:12 twist which is too slow for heavier 223 loads, may impact accuracy. I'm not sure they offer in 223, but a Nosler Partition round would give the best of both worlds in a marginal caliber - expansion on the front end and penetration on the back end.

If you hand load, the 45 Colt can be hot loaded to get get close to 44 mag performance, and the Marlin should handle it.

I like the scoped option better. But if you have to use factory Colt 45, the CZ has more power and I'd opt for it.

I'd take them both to the range. With drills, see which you shoot better. I don't have a shoot ton of guns, but I happen to own both models in question, the 1894 in 44m. I shoot the CZ better, both mine are scoped.

 

[ArtP]

Maybe off-topic, but I'll share a story about 223 on game.

I went to my ex-wife's property to help her next husband put down a steer and butcher it. I have no experience with this, but I was invited with my adult son for support. I guess the method is to lay down oats and when the steer puts his head down to eat, shoot him right through the skull. He used a 357. He wound up shooting from too far away and missed, the bullet went through the snout and missed the brain. This poor steer bled horribly and ran off. I happened to have an AR in my truck, got it out to finish the job. I did not want to take a heart lung/shot with an animal that big from a 223, running injured for days longer. I made three successful head shots from straight on from about 40 yards, with no hearing protection. I could hear each round "click" and bounce right off the skull. At that point I told the guy - GET TO YOUR HOUSE AND GET YOUR 308!. That did finish the job but it was such a sad and horrible experience. I was given some of the meat after processing and every bite was a reminder. It's something I can't forget

 

[Picher]

I can't say that I like either choice. My go-to rifle is a Remington 700 Stainless-Fluted in 270 Win or 7mm-08, with a 3-9X Leupold in a Weaver-type top mount. It shoots .5 MOA with my hunting handloads and has killed several deer at various ranges from 30 to 200+ yards.

 

[shafter]

The 45 has enough power at the distances you quoted and is a good round for deer but the limiting factor will be how far you can confidently shoot with iron sights. Where I hunt I'd choose the 45 all day long because most of my shots will be inside of 75 yards. I'd figure out what distance you can shoot at and stick with whatever that is. If it's 50 yards it's 50 yards.

To me the 556 is just a little light for deer. It can and does work but everything has to be perfect on your end.

My choice of late is a Ruger Hawkeye in 308.

 

[Random 8]

The CZ 527 has a 1:12 twist which is too slow for heavier 223 loads, may impact accuracy.

When I looked up the model, 1:9 and 5.56 chambered was specified. Maybe older ones were 1:12?

 

[dranrab]

I can tell from reading the responses here who has actually used a 223 with a proper bullet on deer and who has not. If I showed you a heart shot by a 223 caliber 64 grain Nosler Bonded and one shot with a 130 grain 6.5 Creedmoor using a 130 grain Accubond, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. The whole notion of "margin of error" and "perfect shot placement" being critical with a 223 but not with _________ fill in the blank, is bunk.

 

[Mauser lover]

I can tell from reading the responses here who has actually used a 223 with a proper bullet on deer and who has not. If I showed you a heart shot by a 223 caliber 64 grain Nosler Bonded and one shot with a 130 grain 6.5 Creedmoor using a 130 grain Accubond, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. The whole notion of "margin of error" and "perfect shot placement" being critical with a 223 but not with _________ fill in the blank, is bunk.

I know, right! I even pointed out that the .223 has more energy than the .45. The margin of error is BIGGER with the .223! If you think that the .223 is not enough, you've got to figure out why the .45 is enough, because it's not more powerful. Also, it's going to be far easier to put the bullet where you want it to be with a scope. Either will work with the proper limitations, but the .223 as listed by the OP has fewer limitations.

 

[Choctaw]

45 Colt properly loaded for hunting will absolutely take any deer in the lower 48 within range.

 

[CraigC]

For me it would be the .45 but with 250gr bullets or heavier. I don't consider the .223 a deer cartridge but the .45, with the right load and bullet, will cleanly take dangerous game of any size.

Winchester .223 64 grain Power Point has more energy at the muzzle than any .45 Colt load that I could find. It's pretty close to the hottest .45 data, but it's still more. As the range increases, the discrepancy does as well. I don't know why this question intrigues me, but that's the data I've dug up so far. So, for those who think the .45 is less than ideal, you can do the math.

I know, right! I even pointed out that the .223 has more energy than the .45. The margin of error is BIGGER with the .223! If you think that the .223 is not enough, you've got to figure out why the .45 is enough, because it's not more powerful. Also, it's going to be far easier to put the bullet where you want it to be with a scope. Either will work with the proper limitations, but the .223 as listed by the OP has fewer limitations.

Hogwash. Energy was never a proper measure of a cartridge's effectiveness. I've taken 2000lb water buffalo with .44Mag loads that deliver the energy of a .22-250. Energy exaggerates the importance of velocity while trivializing mass and ignoring diameter completely.

I have never understood the use of "margin for error" in this context. If you miss the vitals with any rifle, you have created a goat rope.

Are you always perfect?

I can tell from reading the responses here who has actually used a 223 with a proper bullet on deer and who has not. If I showed you a heart shot by a 223 caliber 64 grain Nosler Bonded and one shot with a 130 grain 6.5 Creedmoor using a 130 grain Accubond, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. The whole notion of "margin of error" and "perfect shot placement" being critical with a 223 but not with _________ fill in the blank, is bunk.

I can tell from reading responses who has actually used a big bore handgun cartridge on deer and who has not. Show me a .223 punched through a shoulder instead. Perfect broadside heart/lung or CNS hits are easy.

 

[dranrab]

The 45 has enough power at the distances you quoted and is a good round for deer but the limiting factor will be how far you can confidently shoot with iron sights. Where I hunt I'd choose the 45 all day long because most of my shots will be inside of 75 yards. I'd figure out what distance you can shoot at and stick with whatever that is. If it's 50 yards it's 50 yards.

To me the 556 is just a little light for deer. It can and does work but everything has to be perfect on your end.

My choice of late is a Ruger Hawkeye in 308.

For me it would be the .45 but with 250gr bullets or heavier. I don't consider the .223 a deer cartridge but the .45, with the right load and bullet, will cleanly take dangerous game of any size.




Hogwash. Energy was never a proper measure of a cartridge's effectiveness. I've taken 2000lb water buffalo with .44Mag loads that deliver the energy of a .22-250. Energy exaggerates the importance of velocity while trivializing mass and ignoring diameter completely.



Are you always perfect?



I can tell from reading responses who has actually used a big bore handgun cartridge on deer and who has not. Show me a .223 punched through a shoulder instead. Perfect broadside heart/lung or CNS hits are easy.

I am not always perfect, but that's dodging the point. Missing the vitals with a 30-06 and missing the vitals with a 223 both result in a goat rope.

I have taken several deer with a 44 magnum. I have taken more with a 223. The heart of a 223 shot deer is far soupier. Good 223 bullets will break shoulder and destroy a heart.

When someone uses the word "margin for error" in the context in which it was used here, what does that mean to you?

 

[CraigC]

I am not always perfect, but that's dodging the point. Missing the vitals with a 30-06 and missing the vitals with a 223 both result in a goat rope.

I have taken several deer with a 44 magnum. I have taken more with a 223. The heart of a 223 shot deer is far soupier. Good 223 bullets will break shoulder and destroy a heart.

When someone uses the word "margin for error" in the context in which it was used here, what does that mean to you?

No it isn't. "Margin for error" means that you have a lessened chance of losing the animal if the shot placement is less than perfect. You know, what happens in the real world? Has nothing to do with missing the vitals. No cartridge makes up for that, short of a 20mm. It means you're not solely dependent on perfect bullet performance, perfect placement or banking on missing a shoulder bone. Margin for error is exactly that, accommodating the unknown.

My perspective is that of a handgun hunter. I expect a bullet to hold together and I expect to be able to take a quartering shot or hit the shoulder on the way in, without worrying about whether or not I brought enough gun or chose the right bullet. I don't use minimal equipment or bullets that fragment.

 

[dranrab]

No it isn't. "Margin for error" means that you have a lessened chance of losing the animal if the shot placement is less than perfect.

Explain where a bullet that is placed less than perfectly hits an animal. Then tell me what internal tissue damage looks like when a 223 hits that less than perfect spot and what it looks like when a 30-06 hits that less than perfect spot.

 

[CraigC]

I'll give you a perfect example. The buck I shot about two years ago with a 7mmTCU Contender. It was downhill and I hit him too high. Got the top of the lungs but missed the heart. He ran about a half a mile and piled up in a creek. Had I been using a cartridge that did significantly more tissue damage, he might not have ran so far.

I wouldn't plan on a .223 breaking a shoulder and making it to the vitals but you believe what you want.

If we were to follow your logic to its conclusion, it doesn't matter what we use, as long as the bullet goes in the same place.

 

[crestoncowboy]

Assuming whitetail deer..
I've killed many many deer with 223 and have a buddy who has taken countless with 222. Ive Killed a few with 45 colt handguns. Id take the Cz 223 and never give it a thought. Out to the stated 150 223 is plenty on our big appalachain whitetail. I never lost a single deer or had to shoot one twice with 223.....and I wasn't using that expensive bullet you are looking at.

 

[dranrab]

What additional tissue damage would you expect from a 7mm Magnum on that same shot and why?

I don't believe a 223 will break shoulder and wreck vitals on the far side. I know it will through my experience, the experience of my grandchildren whom I load for, and the experience of others. This thread is chock full of pictures of actual damage from 223 shots on deer and other animals on up to the size of Elk. https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/223-for-bear-deer-elk-and-moose.130488/

 

[entropy]

A man's got to know his limitations. I would choose the .223, in fact that's what I most recently did deer hunt with. I pass up some shots I could take with one of my Mosins or my Mauser, but you're going to have to make up your own mind.

 

[Mauser lover]

For me it would be the .45 but with 250gr bullets or heavier. I don't consider the .223 a deer cartridge but the .45, with the right load and bullet, will cleanly take dangerous game of any size.




Hogwash. Energy was never a proper measure of a cartridge's effectiveness. I've taken 2000lb water buffalo with .44Mag loads that deliver the energy of a .22-250. Energy exaggerates the importance of velocity while trivializing mass and ignoring diameter completely.

We’re dealing with the bullets, optics, and guns in the OP. That said…

How do you want to measure, repeatably, the effectiveness of a cartridge? I just did energy because that’s what came to mind. It was hard enough to get that data comparably, but I’ll see if I can find other information if you tell me what to look for. I wouldn’t have a problem with either gun working given various circumstances, but if those guns were mine, the .45 would have an optic on it before hunting with it.

I think people think of the .45 Colt as more powerful than it is, and the .223 as less than it is.

 

[luv2safari]

I feel somewhat under gunned with both - but I would choose one of these two rifles with the proviso that shots would be limited to approximately 100 - 125 yards. I am hunting on light forest adjacent to pastureland on a friend's farm. No deep woods and no long across the field shots. I have harvested 15 or so deer in the past with other calibers that I DO NOT have access to this year.

The lever packs a heavier wallop while the bolt has superior sighting capability.

I know there are many better alternatives out there but it "ain't" what I got so please try to limit your response to #1 or #2. If you feel VERY strongly that neither is sufficient please voice your opinion.

The CZ is .223/5.56

The Marlin is .45(LC)

I am not warm on either round for deer, especially bigger deer. I'm 243ish on up.

But, that said, I shot coyotes with a 416 Rigby for years. I loved the rifle is why.

 

[shafter]

I am not always perfect, but that's dodging the point. Missing the vitals with a 30-06 and missing the vitals with a 223 both result in a goat rope.

I have taken several deer with a 44 magnum. I have taken more with a 223. The heart of a 223 shot deer is far soupier. Good 223 bullets will break shoulder and destroy a heart.

When someone uses the word "margin for error" in the context in which it was used here, what does that mean to you?

I agree with what CraigC is saying and I'll reiterate that I do believe 223 can take deer and I won't even argue that people shouldn't use it only that if you are you need to understand it'd limitation and know what you are doing.

 

[CraigC]

I think people think of the .45 Colt as more powerful than it is, and the .223 as less than it is.

Only people quoting energy figures think that.

 

[dranrab]

I agree with what CraigC is saying and I'll reiterate that I do believe 223 can take deer and I won't even argue that people shouldn't use it only that if you are you need to understand it'd limitation and know what you are doing.

And it doesn't really have any limitations in the OPs scenario. I guess if you are willing to try a Texas heart shot or rear quartering shot through the gut, it wouldn't do as well as a mono or bonded bullet launched out of a 30-06. I don't take those shots with anything.