While maybe not a good idea, really arrested?

[Vern Humphrey]

If one is calling about a person attempting to break in, that is a terribly long time.

Not necessarily unacceptable--just too long to rely on arriving help.

The acceptability depends on if you're still breathing when the police arrive.

 

[Kleanbore]

The acceptability depends on if you're still breathing when the police arrive.

Put that way, of course.

I was referring to the whether shorter times are achievable in practice.

I think that relying on calling the police to have them stop a home invader is naive.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

About 20 years ago, I lived right outside of Detroit. The local TV news had a Scandal-Of-The-Month. They didn't plan it that way, it just happened -- a scandal in Detroit government at least once a month.

One month, it was a woman who kept calling 911 for hours, and the police never showed -- until after she was murdered.

The Chief of Police (MacKenna, as I recall) was interviewed on TV:

"What is your average response time for 911?"

"I don't know the average response time for 911."

I kept waiting for a REAL policeman to come on stage and arrest him for impersonating a Chief of Police.

You think I didn't carry religiously around Detroit after that?

 

[sgb]

Here in Florida its called "brandishing". This will get you 3 years in jail automatically. If some one knocks at your door tell them to get the **** away. If they come through the door shoot them. It really very simple.

Never seen that statute .... please post the statute number.

 

[420Stainless]

If the report is accurate, what he reported was a dangerous criminal act.

Not at all like some harmless misdemeanor that happened to violate a municipal code.

Why would you think that? Do you think it permissible for someone to to act in a reckless and dangerous manner on one's own property because one does not "want" someone to be there?

Do you remember Ward Bird, the man who approached a trespasser with gun in hand in gun-friendly New Hampshire and ended up in jail as a convicted felon?

https://americaswatchtower.com/2010/11/26/new-hampshire-man-jailed-for-defending-his-property/​

No one is blaming the man for any action that the fireman took. Nor did the fireman "expose himself" to anyone else's "behavior".

He is being blamed--and charged--for a criminal act on his part.

The fireman clearly blamed the man by reporting him for an activity, reckless as it may have been, that he conducted in his own house behind his closed door. Should a person be reported for dry firing in his house should the pistol be pointed in a direction that might not be safe? Should a person be jailed if they have a negligent discharge in their house while clearing their gun if no one else or their property gets hurt? I would argue that both of these activities are potentially far more dangerous than what is report thus far. If you don't want to be offended by the actions of a stranger, do not invite yourself to his house.

 

[Warp]

Should a person be reported for dry firing in his house should the pistol be pointed in a direction that might not be safe?

Well now, that isn't what happened, is it?

To make the analogy/comparison more apt...if that person is dry firing in the direction of the mail carrier as they are delivering a package, while saying "I don't want packages left there", then yes, I think they should be reported.

 

[Kleanbore]

The fireman clearly blamed the man by reporting him for an activity, reckless as it may have been, that he conducted in his own house behind his closed door.

Notwithstanding the fact that he was in his own house or behind a closed door would not begin to make his actions lawful, he also departed from his house with his firearm.

If you don't want to be offended by the actions of a stranger, do not invite yourself to his house.

"Offended"? You do not seem to understand at all.

 

[420Stainless]

Perhaps I don't understand. The story says a man answered his door with a gun in his hand and later used the gun to point at the sign posted on his door. I do not see anything that should be construed as improper from the standpoint of a stranger approaching his domain uninvited and with posted notice not to solicit. If there is more to the story, like he pointed the gun at the fireman, or he verbally threatened him while holding the weapon, then it wasn't reported in that story. As it is, I read that a man answered his door armed and then used the weapon to point at a sign on his front door. Both are actions I think a person should have a right to do in his own home, unless the fireman was call to the house for an emergency. Like I said, if you don't want to see offensive behavior from strangers, do not invite yourself to their home.

 

[Hanzo581]

Pointing to the sign with the gun was clearly meant as intimidation. You can't intimidate someone with a deadly weapon where it isn't a life/death situation.

 

[Kleanbore]

If there is more to the story, like he pointed the gun at the fireman, or ...[/QUOTEConsider this for a moment. If someone approaches you with gun in hand, you need not wait for him to point it directly at you before you shoot him.

... Like I said, if you don't want to see offensive behavior from strangers, do not invite yourself to their home.

"Offensive" is not the word. That action was reckless, dangerous, intimidating, threatening, and unlawful.

 

[alsaqr]

The story says a man answered his door with a gun in his hand and later used the gun to point at the sign posted on his door.

The guy exited the home.

Read this part:

Semencic came to the door holding a black handgun in his left hand and exited the home, police said. He then tapped on the front glass door with the gun, pointing to a sign that read “DO NOT KNOCK, NO PEDDLERS” and told the volunteer to “go away," police said.

That could get one arrested in most states.

 

[Kleanbore]

I am amazed that some posters here to not seem to grasp the seriousness of having a gun in one's hand when interacting with people. It not only can lead to to criminal charges, a trial, conviction, imprisonment, and the loss of gun rights, as occurred in the aforementioned case in New Hampshire; it can lead to one's being shot, perhaps with justification. And, of course, there is the little matter of gun safety.

Perhaps some people have been watching too much television. Gene Autry was often portrayed pointing a gun at the sheriff, and afterward it was all smiles as Gene helped to capture the rustlers. The Lone Ranger outdrew the sheriff in almost every other episode, explained that his mask was "on the side of the law", and remained in good stead after re-holstering.

Real life doesn't work that way. The presentation of a firearm without justification can have serious, long term consequences.

One should only present a firearm when there is very good reason to do so--that means when it is necessary.

Having it in one's hand (but out of sight) when going to the door? Think about it. Just what would one intend to do with it? Should the visitor prove to be really dangerous, one does not want to be standing right in front of him.

As a matter of fact, before drawing one's firearm, or even before picking it up from the table, the first question to ask is "just what is it that I intend to do with this thing?".

Of course, if there is a real need, that should be obvious.

 

[alsaqr]

I am amazed that some posters here to not seem to grasp the seriousness of having a gun in one's hand when interacting with people.

i'm stupefied that folks on a gun board don't understand the ramifications this stuff.

 

[wojownik]

Perhaps I don't understand. The story says a man answered his door with a gun in his hand and later used the gun to point at the sign posted on his door. I do not see anything that should be construed as improper from the standpoint of a stranger approaching his domain uninvited and with posted notice not to solicit.

Surely you are joking. The behavior is improper (and criminal - see below for the charges). Walking around with a pistol in your hand is "at the ready" and not a form of carry, and the handling of the firearm is unquestionably improper (remember the basic rules of firearm handling, like never point at anything you don't intend to shoot?). A pistol is not a pointing stick or laser pointer. What if the person ringing the bell were 8 year old girls scouts with cookies. Still not "improper" to you?

Dense, quiet surburban neighborhood, more than a few kids in the neighborhood. Well traveled street. (Yeah, I know the neighborhood very well.) Open air porch. Fireman (unclear whether he was uniformed, but would that really matter...).

And hence the menacing charge:

§ 120.14 Menacing in the second degree.
A person is guilty of menacing in the second degree when:
1. He or she intentionally places or attempts to place another person
in reasonable fear of physical injury, serious physical injury or death
by displaying a deadly weapon, dangerous instrument or what appears to
be a pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, machine gun or other firearm; or
2. He or she repeatedly follows a person or engages in a course of
conduct or repeatedly commits acts over a period of time intentionally
placing or attempting to place another person in reasonable fear of
physical injury, serious physical injury or death; or
3. He or she commits the crime of menacing in the third degree in
violation of that part of a duly served order of protection, or such
order which the defendant has actual knowledge of because he or she was
present in court when such order was issued, pursuant to article eight
of the family court act, section 530.12 of the criminal procedure law,
or an order of protection issued by a court of competent jurisdiction in
another state, territorial or tribal jurisdiction, which directed the
respondent or defendant to stay away from the person or persons on whose
behalf the order was issued.
Menacing in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor.

And possession of a dangerous weapon because he did the menacing with a firearm. That's another class A misdemeanor (§ 265.01). Each offence can bring a penalty of up to one year.

Plus, he can kiss he pistol permit bye-bye in any event. NY requires permit applicants and holders to be of “good moral character” (an undefined term), but this little adventure could likely call that into question by the NCPD's pistol licensing division.

 

[420Stainless]

I am amazed that some posters here to not seem to grasp the seriousness of having a gun in one's hand when interacting with people.

Only about as amazed as I am that some posters don't seem to have any respect at all for another person's privacy. Had this happened on the street, in a store, anywhere the public generally interacts with each other then I would agree with you. Even if the fireman was on official business I would agree with you.

I can remember from my teenage years two different cantankerous old men in our country town that would walk out on their porch with a shotgun in hand whenever someone entered their property uninvited. No one ever thought to report them. The normal reaction back then was to realize they didn't want people around and to just steer clear of them. Neither ever shot anyone nor was given any trouble with the law.

Yes - we thought it was extreme and unsociable. But we also thought people had the right to be unsociable at their home if that is what they wanted it to be. I doubt anyone would have went out of their way to help them if they actually needed it, but people thought it was their right to be left alone if that's what they wanted.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Only about as amazed as I am that some posters don't seem to have any respect at all for another person's privacy. Had this happened on the street, in a store, anywhere the public generally interacts with each other then I would agree with you. Even if the fireman was on official business I would agree with you....

Then the world just isn't the way you'd like it to be. The reality is that the homeowner got arrested and now has more than his share of legal trouble. You might think that's not right, but no one cares. Things are as they are.

Folks who don't have solid understanding of how things actually are tend to get themselves into trouble, like the homeowner here. He might well have thought as you do, but it didn't work out for him too well.

...we also thought people had the right to be unsociable at their home if that is what they wanted it to be....

Waving a gun around in a manner which a reasonable person is likely to perceive as a threat is not merely being unsociable. It's a crime.

 

[wojownik]

Interesting assertions about how a knock on the door ("violating someones privacy") somehow mitigates the brandishing of weapons and implicit (or explicit) threats of force. "Unsociable" is telling someone to bugger off. Criminal is brandishing weapons.

BTW, we don't even know if the "no tresspassing sign" was in even plain sight. Regardless, a knock on the door hardly excuses brandishing deadly weapons.

A bit more context, however, to compound things. This particular incident happened in an pretty built up suburban area - a population of 18,862 in 2.7 square miles, a short 3 1/4 mile drive down Hempstead Tpke into Queens (NYC). And, I remember, even way back when, brandishing any weapon (Nassau or Suffolk Counties) would result in a swift call to 9-1-1. It would have been menacing and brandishing then, just as today. And, the entire area does not exactly have the most constructive attitude towards 2A ...

 

[420Stainless]

All I can tell you is that I'm 53 years old and no one in that town of 10,000 has been murdered in my lifetime. If it works better your way then so be it. Just glad I don't live there I guess.

 

[Frank Ettin]

.... If it works better your way then so be it....

It seems that you can't grasp the concept that it's not my way, or Kleabbore's way, or wojownik's way, etc. It's the way things are in the real world.

And it is that law in every State that threatening someone with a gun is a crime of one sort or another.

 

[420Stainless]

I can grasp it. Guess I just come from an era where the law enforcement folks used some discretion. Maybe this old guy has a long rap sheet and it's good that he is in jail, but if that action and possession of the gun is all he's done wrong I don't find any satisfaction or feel any safer that he's locked up.

I now live in a small town 40 miles away from where I grew up. Maybe I'm just sensitive because 3 thugs invaded an old deaf couple's (68 and 78 years old) house here last week and beat the 78 year old man half to death. I wish he would have had a gun in his hand when he answered the door.

 

[Frank Ettin]

... Guess I just come from an era where the law enforcement folks used some discretion....

Whatever era you, or any of us, might have come from, we all live in this one now. And tomorrow we will all be living in the era tomorrow.

In any case, law enforcement and prosecutors continue to have some discretion, but it's a lousy idea to count on it.

...Maybe I'm just sensitive because 3 thugs invaded an old deaf couple's (68 and 78 years old) house here last week and beat the 78 year old man half to death. I wish he would have had a gun in his hand when he answered the door. ...

Which has nothing to do with this thread. There are times to have a gun and to use it -- when one has no other choice. And there are times when a threatening display of a gun will land one in jail.

Folks need to understand the difference.

 

[Warp]

All I can tell you is that I'm 53 years old and no one in that town of 10,000 has been murdered in my lifetime. If it works better your way then so be it. Just glad I don't live there I guess.

It sounds like, after all of this, you still think it is okay to answer the door (when it is just a guy knocking at the door for donations with no reason to suspect any criminal activity or attack of any kind) by threatening somebody with a gun.

Please, don't do that

 

[Hanzo581]

Here's a crazy idea, how about just don't answer the door?

 

[old lady new shooter]

Having it in one's hand (but out of sight) when going to the door? Think about it. Just what would one intend to do with it? Should the visitor prove to be really dangerous, one does not want to be standing right in front of him.

Since I posted that I did recently go to the door armed but with the gun not visible from outside the door, I'll answer.

As previously noted, I have security doors, so I can open the wood door without the person outside being able to come in through the door. Two scenarios that could possibly have played out after someone trying the security door (NOT knocking or ringing the bell):
1. person at door is trying to hide from police helicopters because he just committed a crime nearby, waves gun at me and threatens to shoot me if I don't let him in. In which case I believe I would be justified to shoot immediately, which I would do through the security door.
2. person at door is either trying to hide from police as in scenario #1 or is mentally ill; either way on being denied admission through the door would dive through the window which he could reach in two steps, much quicker than I could get anywhere safer. In which case I would shoot if he broke the window and started entering, possibly first trying warning him I was armed, depending on how scary he looked and how he was behaving -- if he just looked confused that would be a lot different than if for example he had a knife in hand.

Thankfully neither of the above occurred, the "visitor" was apparently looking for a house he could just walk into, but I don't regret having been prepared.

To put this in context, one morning around 9 am within one or two days of this experience, the following occurred at the 7-Eleven around the corner: BG takes beer and sandwich without paying, female clerk follows him outside to try to get paid, BG stabs her, male clerk rushes outside to try to rescue female clerk, BG stabs him also, then runs away. Male clerk died, female clerk was in critical condition last I heard, BG was caught a few blocks away a couple of hours later. G-d forbid, but it could easily have been my house he tried to hide in.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Here's a crazy idea, how about just don't answer the door?

I think I posted this before, but old people are given slack for repeating themselves, so here goes:

Around here, ringing the doorbell or knocking is a method BGs use to see if anyone's home. If no one answers, they proceed to go around the back to break in and burglarize the home. If someone answers they either make up a story designed to get the homeowner to let them in, or if they only want to take stuff from unoccupied houses they make up something else like asking where a certain address is.