Mandirigma
Member
Knowing that doing so won't protect yourself from civil consequences.
Who would you use deadly force to protect?
- Thread starter Mandirigma
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usp9
Member
Anyone under DEADLY threat. That simple.
geekWithA.45
Moderator Emeritus
The only real variable in that equation is whether I believed I had full situational awareness.
You're walking through a parking lot, and actor A is pointing a gun at actor B.
Who's the bad guy and why?
You're walking through a parking lot, and actor A is pointing a gun at actor B.
Who's the bad guy and why?
Mandirigma
Member
Figure full Situational Awareness, and a justifiable shooting. Not a trick question/poll. Just wondering what the general consensus would be.
not to nitpick, but with total awareness, cameras and crew would be noticeable (Though they could have been rehearsing I know
). I didn't specify, and I probably should have. Sorry.
geekWithA.45 said:
not to nitpick, but with total awareness, cameras and crew would be noticeable (Though they could have been rehearsing I know
). I didn't specify, and I probably should have. Sorry.jrfoxx
Member
Given that you said full situational awareness, I voted for "All", however I do not include pets/animals in that (just my personal feeling there).
geekWithA.45
Moderator Emeritus
Yeah, the legal calculus on defending pets/animals/livestock is probably very dicey, and I don't have a lot of detail in that area.
I suspect some states have cattle rustling/livestock laws, whereas others (like NJ) who value criminals above honest folk would insist that you must allow scumbag A to strangle your cat.
I suspect some states have cattle rustling/livestock laws, whereas others (like NJ) who value criminals above honest folk would insist that you must allow scumbag A to strangle your cat.
Erebus
Member
Choose all but I would never use deadly force to protect an animal from a human being. Animal on animal maybe, basically only if I was 100% sure there was no danger to any people if I did.
stevelyn
Member
Outside of my job, I would only protect my own hide and family. Friends can take care of themselves.
Strangers are on their own as there is no way of telling who the bad guy is.
Strangers are on their own as there is no way of telling who the bad guy is.
Lennyjoe
Member
Myself and my family are #1 priority.
All others depends on the situation. If I'm at the Circle K getting a drink and someone starts blasting then I'll do what I have to. If the guy just points a gun at the attendant and asks for money then I'm finding a safe spot to ride it out.
All others depends on the situation. If I'm at the Circle K getting a drink and someone starts blasting then I'll do what I have to. If the guy just points a gun at the attendant and asks for money then I'm finding a safe spot to ride it out.
progunner1957
member
I would have to reluctantly agree. Not that I want to agree, but our so-called legal system has made it that way.
When you walk up on a situation in progress, you have no idea what's going on. "Actor A" could be an undercover cop and "Actor B" could be a murderer or crack dealer being arrested for all you know.
If that is the case and you jump in, you have just bought yourself a world of hurt - probably felony charges of obstruction of justice, pointing a firearm at a police officer, criminal confinement and whatever else the prosecutor's office can come up with.
If that is the case, you can kiss your gun collection - and probably your home, family and freedom - goodbye.
Take care of you and yours, and let others do the same or suffer the consequences of being unprepared, unarmed sheeple. The sheeple say, "The police will protect me, there's no need to own a gun." Since they believe that, let them live by it.
That may sound harsh, but I have some bad news, folks: Reality is harsh.
Just my thoughts on the subject - YMMV.
TallPine
Member
I like my animals better than most people ... 
hankdatank1362
Member
It's a real shame the law says I can't kill to protect my dog. I'm pretty damn sure my dog would kill or die trying to protect me.
Deanimator
Member
Ohio law allows you to defend others if you, similarly situated would be entitled to defend yourself.
I don't go running around looking for crimes to thwart, but anybody who even having called the police, would stand around and watch somebody beat and rape a woman until the cops come, without intervening if he has the means, shouldn't lie to himself and others by calling himself a man.
I don't go running around looking for crimes to thwart, but anybody who even having called the police, would stand around and watch somebody beat and rape a woman until the cops come, without intervening if he has the means, shouldn't lie to himself and others by calling himself a man.
Precisely. You never have full situational awareness, but, in general, the closer you are to the scenario, the better your data.geekWithA.45 said:
My understanding is that some states differentiate between using deadly force to protect yourself, which is judged by a reasonable man standard, and deadly force to protect someone else, which is judged by the actual circumstances. Thus, if someone threatens you with an airsoft gun at dusk, and you, thinking the gun is real, shoot them, you acted reasonably. You should be absolved. If they threaten someone else with an airsoft gun at dusk, and you, thinking the gun is real, shoot them, you still acted reasonably. However, since under the actual circumstances there was no lethal threat, you may still be found to be at fault.
Sorry, strangers, you may be on your own.
Lupinus
Member
anyone I saw in trouble and under a deadly threat.
Doesn't matter if I know them or not but the hell if I am just going to walk by some dirt bag beating or raping a woman and do nothing but call the cops when I have a gun and can stop it then and there. Hell even if I didn't have a gun I'd still use something whether its a knife a rock or my bare hands.
Being armed doesn't make us all police officers, but we are all still human beings and it is the right thing to do when you see someone being seriously injured or killed to do all you can to help them.
Doesn't matter if I know them or not but the hell if I am just going to walk by some dirt bag beating or raping a woman and do nothing but call the cops when I have a gun and can stop it then and there. Hell even if I didn't have a gun I'd still use something whether its a knife a rock or my bare hands.
Being armed doesn't make us all police officers, but we are all still human beings and it is the right thing to do when you see someone being seriously injured or killed to do all you can to help them.
HankB
Member
I'm not a cop wannabe, so I'm only fully prepared to use deadly force to protect myself and my family - because in a threatening situation, only with myself and my family can I be 100% certain who the good guys are.
Friends . . . generally yes. I learned a long time ago to choose friends carefully, so I'm pretty sure I could tell who the good guy is.
Pets . . . don't have one right now, so it doesn't apply. Generally speaking, I'm not going to protect someone else's pet with deadly force.
Strangers . . . generally no. I'm not going to stand idly by if some machete-crazed lunatic is hacking away at little kids standing by a school bus stop, but except for extreme situations, I'm not going to involve myself in altercations between strangers.
Friends . . . generally yes. I learned a long time ago to choose friends carefully, so I'm pretty sure I could tell who the good guy is.
Pets . . . don't have one right now, so it doesn't apply. Generally speaking, I'm not going to protect someone else's pet with deadly force.
Strangers . . . generally no. I'm not going to stand idly by if some machete-crazed lunatic is hacking away at little kids standing by a school bus stop, but except for extreme situations, I'm not going to involve myself in altercations between strangers.
I am not the Lone Ranger....
...nor do I play him on TV.
However, if I am in a store with a holdup, or a bank with a holdup, I'll do what I can to protect myself and those around me. That does not necessarily equate to challenging the guy with the gun. It does mean that if I can find a good place to hunker down, and there are strangers with me, I will protect them as myself.
So yes, I'd use deadly force to protect strangers in the context in which this is legal in Texas. No, I will not go along pretending I have police powers and am the sheepdog of the neighborhood and yadda yadda yadda.
Common sense is a good thing.
Springmom
...nor do I play him on TV.
However, if I am in a store with a holdup, or a bank with a holdup, I'll do what I can to protect myself and those around me. That does not necessarily equate to challenging the guy with the gun. It does mean that if I can find a good place to hunker down, and there are strangers with me, I will protect them as myself.
So yes, I'd use deadly force to protect strangers in the context in which this is legal in Texas. No, I will not go along pretending I have police powers and am the sheepdog of the neighborhood and yadda yadda yadda.
Common sense is a good thing.
Springmom
I think in 90+% of the real, violent criminal assaults, it will be clear. If you see a man/men attacking a woman, I cannot believe the average person couldn't tell the difference between an undercover cop arresting her and a sociopath trying to beat and rape her. Body language, verbals and the manner of attack will be clear.
If you see two men fighting...well if you are not sure, then get cover and call the police. I'm a lot less likely to jump into situations grown men get into. They usually are all at fault. It's not like you have to decide in advance you will never help a third party no matter what. If you witness something and it is clear (not the wishy washy, internet "what-iffing"), then act. If you witness something and in the situation, you aren't sure (your gut, instincts are undecided) then just call the cops and be a good witness. If something you see later makes it clear one way or the other, then act based on the new info.
The main thing is not to think of yourself as a hero looking to save the day. If you do, it will prep your subconscious to be biased in interpreting a situation in a manner that will allow you to be the hero. A guy not wanting any trouble, or to be a hero, who witnesses something will likely not misinterpret IMHO. Also the undercover what if's much less likely than it just being an assault.
If you see two men fighting...well if you are not sure, then get cover and call the police. I'm a lot less likely to jump into situations grown men get into. They usually are all at fault. It's not like you have to decide in advance you will never help a third party no matter what. If you witness something and it is clear (not the wishy washy, internet "what-iffing"), then act. If you witness something and in the situation, you aren't sure (your gut, instincts are undecided) then just call the cops and be a good witness. If something you see later makes it clear one way or the other, then act based on the new info.
The main thing is not to think of yourself as a hero looking to save the day. If you do, it will prep your subconscious to be biased in interpreting a situation in a manner that will allow you to be the hero. A guy not wanting any trouble, or to be a hero, who witnesses something will likely not misinterpret IMHO. Also the undercover what if's much less likely than it just being an assault.
High Planes Drifter
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I would have voted all including stranger, but I interpreted "all" as meaning I would use deadly force to protect animals/pets also. Therefore I voted myself, family and friends; tho I would use deadly force to protect a stranger if need be. I would not use deadly force on another human to protect an animal. I really dont think one could expect to get away with that here in my neck of the woods.
Lupinus
Member
In SC as I understand the defense of others law is that if you put yourself in their place and deadly force would be authorized you in turn can use deadly force to protect them. So if you saw someone being mugged/rapped/whatever and s/he would legaly be able to use deadly force but lacks the means you in turn can use deadly force to protect them.
I don't know if I'd say I'd use deadly force everytime I saw someone who would legally be in their rights to use it, but I can say that if circumstances were right then absoloutly.
I don't know if I'd say I'd use deadly force everytime I saw someone who would legally be in their rights to use it, but I can say that if circumstances were right then absoloutly.
M2 Carbine
member
The BIG IF is if (somehow) I am fully aware of exactly what is taking place.
IF I knew that I was actually seeing a aggravated kidnapping, rape, deadly assault, etc, taking place I would shoot in a second.
I can't stand a coward and if I didn't do what I could to stop such as a rape, child abduction or someone shooting people in a Wal Mart parking, I couldn't look at myself in the mirror in the morning.
As far as civil lawsuits, etc?
I refuse to allow the possibility of that stuff to interfere with the way I live or my doing what is right.
Animals?
My pets are my family, my only close family. I will not allow them to be, purposely, harmed.
Other pets?
True example.
In the DFW area there is sub human filth that has poured gas on dogs and set them on fire, gouged their eyes out and did other inhuman things.
Given the oppurnity I would use DEADLY force against these people.
IF I knew that I was actually seeing a aggravated kidnapping, rape, deadly assault, etc, taking place I would shoot in a second.
I can't stand a coward and if I didn't do what I could to stop such as a rape, child abduction or someone shooting people in a Wal Mart parking, I couldn't look at myself in the mirror in the morning.
As far as civil lawsuits, etc?
I refuse to allow the possibility of that stuff to interfere with the way I live or my doing what is right.
Animals?
My pets are my family, my only close family. I will not allow them to be, purposely, harmed.
Other pets?
True example.
In the DFW area there is sub human filth that has poured gas on dogs and set them on fire, gouged their eyes out and did other inhuman things.
Given the oppurnity I would use DEADLY force against these people.
Technosavant
Member
Assuming best case scenario, I voted "all."
There was that incident a few month back where a murderous ex-husband was trying to stab his wife to death behind the deli counter at a Wal-Mart. A CCW holder intervened and saved the woman's life by shooting the assailant.
That sort of thing is pretty cut-and-dried. I don't pretend to be a policeman and I have no desire to jump into a situation where the actors are not clearly defined. I would also have a difficult time living with myself if I allowed an innocent person to be killed if I knew I could take action, had the knowledge I needed to take action, but withheld from taking action.
As the saying goes, all that is needed for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.
I think there is going to be a wide variety of answers because of the wide variety of situations. For every obvious "evil person attacking an innocent with intent to murder" there will be a "two guys scuffling in the parking lot."
There was that incident a few month back where a murderous ex-husband was trying to stab his wife to death behind the deli counter at a Wal-Mart. A CCW holder intervened and saved the woman's life by shooting the assailant.
That sort of thing is pretty cut-and-dried. I don't pretend to be a policeman and I have no desire to jump into a situation where the actors are not clearly defined. I would also have a difficult time living with myself if I allowed an innocent person to be killed if I knew I could take action, had the knowledge I needed to take action, but withheld from taking action.
As the saying goes, all that is needed for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.
I think there is going to be a wide variety of answers because of the wide variety of situations. For every obvious "evil person attacking an innocent with intent to murder" there will be a "two guys scuffling in the parking lot."
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