Why a 9mm AR-15 pistol?

[Phantom Warrior]

My old roommate dropped off a copy of American Handgunner in my room. The cover article is about the new Rock River Arms 9mm AR pistol.

I realize that they make 9mm uppers for ARs and that they make AR pistols, so it was only a matter of time before someone combined the two. But what point is there really? An AR pistol in .223 gives you a lot of fire power in a very compact package. Ok, sweet. But the same thing in 9mm seems kind of pointless to me. As...Ayoob, I think...points out in the article, an AR pistol lends itself well to neither shooting it two handed like a conventional pistol nor shooting it from the shoulder like a conventional rifle.

If you want a high capacity 9mm pistol, why not get a Glock w/ hi-caps? I guarantee it'll be less than the $1000 and change you'll pay for Rock River's entry. Plus you'll get one that is eminently more shootable than the front heavy, awkwardly balanced AR-15 pistol. If you want something to shoot from the shoulder, why not get a Keltec, a Beretta Storm, or some other 9mm carbine?

The floor is yours...

 

[holycrikey]

I have that magazine as well. I didn't fully understand the point of a weapon like that. Didn't ya like how it started FTF'ing when a little bit dirty?

I guess it's for the gunner who has it all and wants to waste some money on something a bit unqiue. I certainly don't see the point of a gun like that, and I doubt it'll sell that well.

 

[Coronach]

I fail to see the point besides "Just 'cuz", which is all that is really required, I suppose.

I lump it into the same category as minivans equipped with nitrous systems and drag racing tires. Hey, if it makes you happy...

Mike

 

[Owen]

why not? sounds like fun...

 

[middy]

It makes a good gift for the gunnie that "has everything".

That's all I can think of.

 

[gazpacho]

Pretty much any AR pistol with a barrel length of under 11 inches is going to launch the bullet at a speed below the fragmentation threshold of the 5.56 NATO round. On the other hand, 9mm will only improve its terminal ballistics from the longer AR pistol barrel.

 

[chakup]

a base for SBR paperwork.

 

[444]

I don't understand the whole attraction of the AR15 pistol to begin with. That being said, I have a 7.5" AR15, a 11.5" AR15 both in 5.56. I also have a 9mm AR15 with an 11.5" upper as well as another upper with a 7" barrel and a suppressor.
The 9mm AR15 is definitely one of the most fun guns I own. But I wouldn't want one without a stock.

 

[Grayrider]

I beg to differ with you gazpacho. If you refer to this site:

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm

Well down on the page is a chart showing fragmentation distances for M193 and M855 out of various barrel lengths. One can see that out of an 11.5" barrel the rounds both fragment at useful CQB ranges. One can infer that dropping an inch or a few inches off the barrel length will have a proportional reduction in fragmentation range, but not a complete reduction to zero once the 11" barrier is crossed. I chose a 10.3" barrel for mine and expect fragmentation at roughly the same (albeit short) distances as the 11.5".

I have to agree that the 9mm pistol would seem to gain where the 5.56 would loose in terms of beneficial velocity. However, given the number of LE and military organizations that have made well documented decisions to abandon 9mm for CQB use in favor of 5.56 (for what I think are good reasons), I chose to do the same for my home defense carbine. Not wanting to go through the SBR routine in my slightly restrictive state, I elected to us a 10.3" 5.56 pistol AR with a full length buffer tube. I can use that in a stock-like manner to steady the weapon, and the 10.3" barrel gives me excellent handling in close quarters. It is also worth noting that the 10.3" barrel plus phantom has only slightly more blast than my M4. I suppose a 9mm pistol AR would have less, but hardly worth justifying given that both would be terribly unpleasant indoors.

Then there is the reliability issue as seen in the article. My CMMG pistol runs anything without hesitation. That is also very important. I think 5.56 has shown itself to be a better choice for CQB use than 9mm out of smg sized AR platforms.

GR

 

[smince]

An AR pistol in .223 gives you a lot of fire power in a very compact package. Ok, sweet. But the same thing in 9mm seems kind of pointless to me.

an AR pistol lends itself well to neither shooting it two handed like a conventional pistol nor shooting it from the shoulder like a conventional rifle.

So a powerful hard to control weapon is more desirable than a weak hard to control weapon?

 

[Still 2 Many Choices!?]

I don't like the 9mm caliber....

Other than that, I have no issue with the AR-pistol in concept or application. It's basically a stockless MP5, wich I doubt anybody would pass on receiving, or feel undergunned with as a home defense weapon. I would prefer it like mine, in 5.56, but could see a spot for an AR pistol in either .40 S&W or 10mm ....

PS- Agreed, the do make a nice start off point for an SBR while finances catch up !

 

[smince]

If you are a member of WarriorTalk, or care to sign on, here is a link to an interesting (though fairly long) thread on the AR pistol:

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=12877

EDIT: Olympic Arms and Bushmaster are putting neoprene/foam coverings around the buffer tube. This COULD be used as a very short stock in an emergency.

 

[duncan]

9mm AR15 carbine you can shoot at any indoor range where pistols are allowed.

A 9mm AR15 pistol - just because they had the tooling!

 

[Phantom Warrior]

So a powerful hard to control weapon is more desirable than a weak hard to control weapon?

No, not so. But at least an AR pistol in .223 is has some benefits. You have a fair amount of firepower in a small package. It may not be the easist thing to shoot, but you are still putting out a steady stream of .223 rounds.

The same thing in 9mm is pointless. If I want to put out a steady stream of 9mm I can do it much more easily w/ either a 9mm pistol or a straight up 9mm carbine.

 

[Plink]

I fail to see the point of an AR-15 pistol in any caliber, actually. At least a pistol in a rifle caliber has no choice but be bulky and awkward. In 9mm it makes even less sense. It's all good though. I don't see the purpose of a handgun in .45-70 either, but I want one.

 

[DunedinDragon]

I tend to classify each one of my guns into a "tool" category, meaning that each has a specific situation in which they would be MOST useful.

I classify my AR-15 pistol as the best tool for intermediate range defense against multiple targets (think riot). The reason I categorize it for that isn't so much the mag capacity (although that's part of it), but more the 5.56 ammo that is HUGELY intimidating both in sound and in muzzle flash. To me it's as much about intimidation as it is about hitting the target. With a good red dot site, I'm easily as accurate, if not more accurate, than I am with any pistol at the 25 - 35 yard range. At that range the velocity is still sufficient to get the best fragmentation out of a M193 round. But I guarantee you firing my AR-15 pistol without the flash suppressor will absolutely get everyone's attention which is what I would REALLY want in that situation.

That being said, I would have to say I'd lose all the specific advantages this gun has were it in 9mm.

 

[30 cal slob]

one could argue that an ar-15 9 mm pistol has more intimidation value (however defined) than say... a Glock.

other than that, sounds like one for the "fun gun" category.

if someone offered me one on a silver platter, i wouldn't turn my nose up at it.

 

[kjeff50cal]

The fascination with mid sized handy weapons actually goes back centuries (Roman Gladeus anyone). When this land was a hotly contested colony between the French, English and Native Peoples the Native Peoples cutdown Trade Muskets in to what were called "Blanket Guns". Short and handy power that was in a compact package.

During the Civil War the Cavalry of both sides had short handy weapons for close and mid-ranges, Lemat Revolvers, Sawed off Shotguns and a variety of carbines. During the taming of the West Winchester made handy Short Barrel Rifles (actually Carbines) with barrels down to 12" long in their Models 73 & 92s (until 1934 ) . Josh Randall (Wanted Dead or Alive) had his "Mare's Leg" (why doesn't he just use a Peacemaker?).

Until the GCA of 1934, we Americans (good bad & ugly) liked weapons that were neither pistol nor rifle but would do a fair job in either application. The Mables Game Getter, Ithica Auto Burgalar (factory short barreled shotgun) are the more popular examples of early 20th Century short barrel guns.

Currently these AR and AK rifle/pistols or pistol/rifles are a way to get around a whole lot of Gov. paperwork registering a SBR or as stated a platform to convert them with proper paperwork into an SBR. Why? because they serve to fill a niche. That niche is, 'just because they are handy'.

 

[Zundfolge]

a base for SBR paperwork.

BINGO.


The purpose of any AR pistol is because the stupid 1934 NFA doesn't allow serfs to own short barreled rifles without jumping through hoops ... and some states don't allow them at all.

But an AR pistol is a pistol, not an SBR ... but its as close to an SBR as many of us can get.


I want a Carbon 15 pistol to convert to an SBR ... and I'll do it someday (anyone wanna send me a few hundred bucks to help out? )

 

[theinvisibleheart]

There is only 2 scenario in which 9MM AR pistol makes sense (compared to say, Glock 17 with 33 round mag):

1. buy it as a pistol and then file Form 1 for registration as SBR. Later on, add a suppressor.

2. as a future full auto sear host.

--John

 

[Zero_DgZ]

Big, clunky, unbalanced, hard to control? Likes to fail to feed when it gets slightly dirty? Evil, magazine forward of the trigger design?

So... We've created a 1000 dollar Tec-9.

 

[robertbank]

Back about two years ago one of the guys brought out an AR 15 with a 9MM upper. We incorporated it into one of our scenarios. Gun had an optical sight on it. Fun to shoot and bullet sure went where the red dot was aimed at. Distance was only 27 meters but like I said it was a blast to shoot.

Not sure it did much more than my 9MM Hi-power at the time but again it was fun.

Take Care

Bob

 

[Still 2 Many Choices!?]

1000 dollar Tec 9 my posterior!!

The Tec 9 had crappy sights and even crappier reliablity. It couldn't be changed to .223, or 7.62X39 simply by pushing a pin and changing a few parts, and was designed to be an open bolt gun until BATF said that this was a no no....
An AR-pistol in 9mm would again be more comparable with a stockless MP5, but a HELLUVA LOT CHEAPER ! And you can build a 9mm AR pistol for well under 1000 dollars, but yep, a factory fresh one will probably run you as much (or more) than the actual rifle:banghead: !! My ARpistol build ran me ~650, and the now domestic made copies of MP5's(with the obnoxiously long barrel but a stock) are running over 1500. I don't think I have seen a domestic MP5 produced in the stockless handgun configuration...