Why are .38 wadcutters not considered a good carry load?
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MICHAEL T
Member
In days before HP lots of police carried WC or Semi WC they worked better than LRN I carried 158 semi Wad cutters for years . Still carry the 158swchp +p In my J frames
Still have a few of the 148 reversed wad cutters (Big HP) that were loaded hot for close up use .From back in mid 70's .
Still have a few of the 148 reversed wad cutters (Big HP) that were loaded hot for close up use .From back in mid 70's .
Cop Bob
Member
To all the nay sayers I have one question, would you want to get hit with one?
I used to have an assignment where I had cause to read MANY homicide reports, including autopsy photos. I know for a fact that there are more than one that left this life with the assistance of a 148 gr. wadcutter..
They have been carried for many years in snub guns, with adequate results.
Low Power, yep, but they have the weight to get to vitals. They are already opened up to a flat point equal to the bore diameter, and the flat end is cutting vital organs and meat like it does paper. They are close to a .25 or a .32 all opened up, and they have more weight than the smaller caliber. If you don't have speed, you better have weight...
By its design, the wadcutter delivers more shock and a RN ... It is shock that incapacitates... shoot a gallon jug with a RN, then a wad... what you wanna bet which one wins in the splash department?
Shock is putting body fluids in motion, it is energy transferred to matter. RN's push though with less shockwave than a flat wadcutter.. We all know that Ball ammo, while still very lethal, has a tendency to over penetrate..
Notice I said incapacitates, not kill... and that is what we, with a SD handgun are looking for... instant incapacitation. Will a wadcutter stop/shock instantaneously...? Well, in the right place... it can... with placement.. there are NEVER any guarantees when it comes to bullet wounds, they are ALL different..
It will do a better job than a RN in the shock department. It also does a better job in the tissue destruction department a well, cuts like a knife..
2" bbls don't give a lot of room to burn powder, therefore there are not many hollow point rounds out there that are going to reliably open and are not still burning powder at the end of 2" muzzle, therefore the muzzle flash and signature is much lower with wads..A desirable trait in lowlight conditions. Hi-Velocity stuff generally will not reach it potential velocities in a short barreled weapon, therefore most hollow points in a snubbie exit the barrel before reaching their maximum velocities, and usually a LOT of flash.
Slow to reload, not with some of the folks I know.. speed loaders and practice are your friend... Watch any PPC revolver match... or Jerry Miculek...
They are as controllable and comfortable as any round can be in 38.
While they may not be the 1st choice, especially with today's bullets and powders.. they will work...
If you can accurately hit with them, and you can control them, you are comfortable with them, then by all means... dance with what brung ya..
I'm not saying that they are a best choice, but if I KNOW I can put one in the boiler room, and not so sure about hitting with or controlling the latest greatest, loudenboomer... in a 2" gun, gimme the wads...
It would not be my 1st choice, but it is not a bad choice...
When we move up to 4" Barrels... go for a hollowpoint... please
I used to have an assignment where I had cause to read MANY homicide reports, including autopsy photos. I know for a fact that there are more than one that left this life with the assistance of a 148 gr. wadcutter..
They have been carried for many years in snub guns, with adequate results.
Low Power, yep, but they have the weight to get to vitals. They are already opened up to a flat point equal to the bore diameter, and the flat end is cutting vital organs and meat like it does paper. They are close to a .25 or a .32 all opened up, and they have more weight than the smaller caliber. If you don't have speed, you better have weight...
By its design, the wadcutter delivers more shock and a RN ... It is shock that incapacitates... shoot a gallon jug with a RN, then a wad... what you wanna bet which one wins in the splash department?
Shock is putting body fluids in motion, it is energy transferred to matter. RN's push though with less shockwave than a flat wadcutter.. We all know that Ball ammo, while still very lethal, has a tendency to over penetrate..
Notice I said incapacitates, not kill... and that is what we, with a SD handgun are looking for... instant incapacitation. Will a wadcutter stop/shock instantaneously...? Well, in the right place... it can... with placement.. there are NEVER any guarantees when it comes to bullet wounds, they are ALL different..
It will do a better job than a RN in the shock department. It also does a better job in the tissue destruction department a well, cuts like a knife..
2" bbls don't give a lot of room to burn powder, therefore there are not many hollow point rounds out there that are going to reliably open and are not still burning powder at the end of 2" muzzle, therefore the muzzle flash and signature is much lower with wads..A desirable trait in lowlight conditions. Hi-Velocity stuff generally will not reach it potential velocities in a short barreled weapon, therefore most hollow points in a snubbie exit the barrel before reaching their maximum velocities, and usually a LOT of flash.
Slow to reload, not with some of the folks I know.. speed loaders and practice are your friend... Watch any PPC revolver match... or Jerry Miculek...
They are as controllable and comfortable as any round can be in 38.
While they may not be the 1st choice, especially with today's bullets and powders.. they will work...
If you can accurately hit with them, and you can control them, you are comfortable with them, then by all means... dance with what brung ya..
I'm not saying that they are a best choice, but if I KNOW I can put one in the boiler room, and not so sure about hitting with or controlling the latest greatest, loudenboomer... in a 2" gun, gimme the wads...
It would not be my 1st choice, but it is not a bad choice...
When we move up to 4" Barrels... go for a hollowpoint... please
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Bottom line is unless your bullet is going to reliably expand it really does not make too much of a difference. Every shot you take will have a compounding effect on the person being shot assuming you can continue to hit your intended target. HP ammo is not going to help you hit anything, and it is probably more likely than not that regardless of the ammo of choice 1 shot from a 38 SPC is not going to STOP him/her. They might be dead 2 minutes later, but 1 shot will likely not make the lights go out. If you are in fear of your life shoot as many times as you have to to stop the attack.
Cop Bob got it right...... HP ammo's job or intended purpose is to deliver more physiological & psychological shock to the body, not to be a better killer.
If expansion does not happen the intended purpose of the ammo has likely been all for naught.
Over penetration is not less lethal but it may deliver less of the immediate "shock" factor.
Either way if you end up in a self defense situation there is no telling what is going to happen or how someone may immediately react to being shot. I have read many who argue that the initial reaction to being shot somewhere other than directly in the central nervous system (brain, spine) has more to do with the psychological impact than it does with physiological impact.
It is extremely unlikely that you are going to 100% physically disable a human being with one shot; however, their brain may tell them that they have been severely harmed and they may lie down or fall over. It is part of the shock factor..... then again you may put 2 shots (4 holes) directly through their upper torso and they could continue to attack you.
I know from hunting that animals react differently than you would expect even from perfect heart shots delivered from high powered rifles. Sometimes it is lights out, and sometimes they will travel 20-30 yards.
Keep in mind rifles deliver much more energy, and do much more tissue damage than a handgun, so my natural assumption is that if I were hunting with 9mm, 38 SPC, and 40 S&W many more animals would run further and take longer to die even with well placed shots. The amount of shock delivered on impact is significantly less.
Cop Bob got it right...... HP ammo's job or intended purpose is to deliver more physiological & psychological shock to the body, not to be a better killer.
If expansion does not happen the intended purpose of the ammo has likely been all for naught.
Over penetration is not less lethal but it may deliver less of the immediate "shock" factor.
Either way if you end up in a self defense situation there is no telling what is going to happen or how someone may immediately react to being shot. I have read many who argue that the initial reaction to being shot somewhere other than directly in the central nervous system (brain, spine) has more to do with the psychological impact than it does with physiological impact.
It is extremely unlikely that you are going to 100% physically disable a human being with one shot; however, their brain may tell them that they have been severely harmed and they may lie down or fall over. It is part of the shock factor..... then again you may put 2 shots (4 holes) directly through their upper torso and they could continue to attack you.
I know from hunting that animals react differently than you would expect even from perfect heart shots delivered from high powered rifles. Sometimes it is lights out, and sometimes they will travel 20-30 yards.
Keep in mind rifles deliver much more energy, and do much more tissue damage than a handgun, so my natural assumption is that if I were hunting with 9mm, 38 SPC, and 40 S&W many more animals would run further and take longer to die even with well placed shots. The amount of shock delivered on impact is significantly less.
In 38 SPC I personally use 158gr LSWC loaded to +P levels for self defense. I need to find a good source for 158gr LSWC-HP. They were used by the FBI for a long time, and performed well even out of snub-nose revolvers when loaded correctly.
When carrying a 5 shot snub nose revolver you have basically done yourself the favor of at least having a gun. It is no slouch, but not exactly the best choice for self defense in every situation.
I think you always have to be ready for the possibility that your gun may not do the trick. You may have to defend yourself by other means, and should be prepared to do so..... at least mentally anyways.
Practicing shooting is important and shot placement is the most important factor IMO. At least if you lay down some good shots you can expect the game to start changing drastically. Vital area shots may not have an immediate effect but they will likely become incapacitating in short order.
When carrying a 5 shot snub nose revolver you have basically done yourself the favor of at least having a gun. It is no slouch, but not exactly the best choice for self defense in every situation.
I think you always have to be ready for the possibility that your gun may not do the trick. You may have to defend yourself by other means, and should be prepared to do so..... at least mentally anyways.
Practicing shooting is important and shot placement is the most important factor IMO. At least if you lay down some good shots you can expect the game to start changing drastically. Vital area shots may not have an immediate effect but they will likely become incapacitating in short order.
I can say with a great deal of reliability that I do not want a .36 cal hole going through one side of me and out the other, and that if I acquire said hole it would have a weakening effect on whatever my objective good, bad, or indifferent.
If I were cognizant of the fact that I had acquired a .36 cal hole I would most likely have a new mission: go to the hospital, but I don't really think like a crack head so take that for what it is worth.
Please consult Charlie Sheen for a perspective on what you will likely be confronted with in a real self defense situation. After that interview you will probably understand the value of high capacity magazines, night sights, CT Laser grips, billy clubs, BUGs, and gun-toting companions.
If I were cognizant of the fact that I had acquired a .36 cal hole I would most likely have a new mission: go to the hospital, but I don't really think like a crack head so take that for what it is worth.
Please consult Charlie Sheen for a perspective on what you will likely be confronted with in a real self defense situation. After that interview you will probably understand the value of high capacity magazines, night sights, CT Laser grips, billy clubs, BUGs, and gun-toting companions.
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I carry an XDm 9mm every day. It’s loaded with 9PBLE 115 gr +P+.
I’d like a round that would work like a Star Trek phaser, but I have to use what’s available.
Handgun ammo is seriously underpowered at best. There’s no point making it worse by carrying wimpy target ammo.
Modern premium SD ammo does, in fact, expand reliably. I’ve used my 9mm SD ammo on hogs and recovered bullets had expanded very well. A few months ago, I shot a hog with CorBon .44 Spl ammo out of my 4” M29. I found one of the bullets under the skin on the far side, after it had gone through both shoulders and the lungs. It was expanded to .75”.
Back in the ‘70s and ‘80s, I was sure I could handload better SD ammo than I could buy from the factories and maybe I was right.
Those days are gone.
oneounceload
member
Exactly - too many naysayers need to come out of their parents' basement and stop playing video games to get a does of reality...........you can tell those folks - the 10MM carry guys, who seem to own some 50 BMG as well..........."yawn"
LHRGunslinger
Member
If you're REALLY worried about stopping power I suggest you handload these full wadcutter hollowpoints. http://customprojectile.3dcartstores.com/38357-Manstopper_p_43.html
They do not expand very much
True but remember a hollowpoint has to expand a little to get into the same shape as a wadcutter.
The problem with factory wadcutters is not the bullet design but the velocity is low. Most solid designs will tumble to some extent which enhances the damage it does. Jim Cirillo did a lot of work looking for the "magic bullet". The most effective he found was...the wadcutter. His favorite version was a wadcutter with a cup point that expanded.
I carry wadcutters in small frame 38s. For reloads I carry SWCs. I don't think some rhino roller ++++++P++++++ JHP is going to work that much better in a 2" barrel on real targets.
True but remember a hollowpoint has to expand a little to get into the same shape as a wadcutter.
The problem with factory wadcutters is not the bullet design but the velocity is low. Most solid designs will tumble to some extent which enhances the damage it does. Jim Cirillo did a lot of work looking for the "magic bullet". The most effective he found was...the wadcutter. His favorite version was a wadcutter with a cup point that expanded.
I carry wadcutters in small frame 38s. For reloads I carry SWCs. I don't think some rhino roller ++++++P++++++ JHP is going to work that much better in a 2" barrel on real targets.
Waywatcher
Member
Because they are the weakest .38 load possible, and were designed to put holes in paper.
As evidenced by hundreds of gun sites, and thousands of threads I think you can be certain that this debate could go on for ever.
What no one can tell you is how someone else will react to being shot....
Having said that if I were convinced to carry wadcutters I would at least make sure the velocity was up around 800-900 ft/sec.
I'm betting most factory wadcutter loads are of a much lower velocity.
What no one can tell you is how someone else will react to being shot....
Having said that if I were convinced to carry wadcutters I would at least make sure the velocity was up around 800-900 ft/sec.
I'm betting most factory wadcutter loads are of a much lower velocity.
Truth in advertising… 
The Old Fuff admits that his use of mid-range/full wadcutter ammunition is limited to lightweight .38 Special snubbies which are usually carried in his pocket. He expects this combination will not be used at distances over 20 yards (most likely 20 feet), and when circumstances suggest otherwise, a standard load with a 158-grain semi-wadcutter is golden. Both shoot to point-of-aim, and the mid-range load offers faster recovery from recoil for a quick-but-accurate follow-up shot(s).
The sharp-shouldered wadcutter bullet cuts a full diameter hole in both paper and people.
Power isn’t everything… Pick a load/cartridge that matches the platform.
Now back to the regularly scheduled discussion…
The Old Fuff admits that his use of mid-range/full wadcutter ammunition is limited to lightweight .38 Special snubbies which are usually carried in his pocket. He expects this combination will not be used at distances over 20 yards (most likely 20 feet), and when circumstances suggest otherwise, a standard load with a 158-grain semi-wadcutter is golden. Both shoot to point-of-aim, and the mid-range load offers faster recovery from recoil for a quick-but-accurate follow-up shot(s).
The sharp-shouldered wadcutter bullet cuts a full diameter hole in both paper and people.
Power isn’t everything… Pick a load/cartridge that matches the platform.
Now back to the regularly scheduled discussion…
doc540
Member
better'n a set of car keys in your fist
but...
there's been a quite a bit of research, engineering, and materials improvement over the years
I carry Barnes Bullets in my snub and hope they discourage men of foul intentions.
but...
there's been a quite a bit of research, engineering, and materials improvement over the years
I carry Barnes Bullets in my snub and hope they discourage men of foul intentions.
Of course also, anyone who Loads their own, may saw a convenient "X" maybe 1/4 inch or so into the flat end of a flat end Wadcutter...or, if using Hollow Base, one may load the Bullet with the Hollow Base facing forward, 'X' sawn or not...and or with a Steel 'BB', Ball Bearing, hard Nylon Ball, or whatever in the hollow end.
A 'Cupped' end, .38 Wadcutter, shaped on the out-facing end about as the old .476 Enfield 'Manstopper' or other had been, easy enough to do with the right Mold and or right Plug for a standard HBWC Mold, or, a Swage, or, with a fitted Round Nose Punch, in a Sizing Die, on an Anvil or other stable firm surface.
Climes or conditions in which everyone would be wearing heavy Winter Clothing, best not to have too readily expanding of a Bullet for possible SD scenarios...Summer, or lighter climes or Seasons, as you please.
Loading your own, one may informedly choose whatever FPS as is wanted within the peramiters of the Arm in question, and, select the Lead Alloy for it to behave as desired.
The smaller 115 Grain flat end Wadcutters, of course can safely be accelerated to quite astounding FPS in most .38 Special Revolvers, if one finds that interesting to do.
Or, one can also stack two of them in the Cartridge, using a dimpler or Cannelure to hold the lower one for the proper density, and, elect an appropriate Charge for the weight...particularly if intended for the .357 Magnum.
Lots of variations are possible on the basid Wadcutter theme.
A 'Cupped' end, .38 Wadcutter, shaped on the out-facing end about as the old .476 Enfield 'Manstopper' or other had been, easy enough to do with the right Mold and or right Plug for a standard HBWC Mold, or, a Swage, or, with a fitted Round Nose Punch, in a Sizing Die, on an Anvil or other stable firm surface.
Climes or conditions in which everyone would be wearing heavy Winter Clothing, best not to have too readily expanding of a Bullet for possible SD scenarios...Summer, or lighter climes or Seasons, as you please.
Loading your own, one may informedly choose whatever FPS as is wanted within the peramiters of the Arm in question, and, select the Lead Alloy for it to behave as desired.
The smaller 115 Grain flat end Wadcutters, of course can safely be accelerated to quite astounding FPS in most .38 Special Revolvers, if one finds that interesting to do.
Or, one can also stack two of them in the Cartridge, using a dimpler or Cannelure to hold the lower one for the proper density, and, elect an appropriate Charge for the weight...particularly if intended for the .357 Magnum.
Lots of variations are possible on the basid Wadcutter theme.
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VA27
Member
I like 'em and it's what I carry in my snubbies. I wouldn't be afraid to carry 'em in my 6" M28 either.
As far as fast reloads go, it's just a matter of practice. Generations of cops learned to load wadcutters quickly from loops or dump pouches. 12 rounds in 10 seconds is a good time to shoot for. From 7 yards you should be able to put those 12 rounds into a teacup.
While that may sound slow compared to today's semiautos, back then the 'statistical average' confrontation was figured at 3 shots in 3 seconds from 3 yards, in the dark.
I suspect that with the proliferation of the semiauto the round count may be higher now, but the 3 seconds, 3 yards and in the dark probably still stand.
As far as fast reloads go, it's just a matter of practice. Generations of cops learned to load wadcutters quickly from loops or dump pouches. 12 rounds in 10 seconds is a good time to shoot for. From 7 yards you should be able to put those 12 rounds into a teacup.
While that may sound slow compared to today's semiautos, back then the 'statistical average' confrontation was figured at 3 shots in 3 seconds from 3 yards, in the dark.
I suspect that with the proliferation of the semiauto the round count may be higher now, but the 3 seconds, 3 yards and in the dark probably still stand.
They don't need much energy because they're efficient with what they do, so who cares? The energy itself is useless without the effect of the bullet, and this type of bullet spends its energy cutting through flesh rather than pushing it aside temporarily--I like that.
It has enough power to penetrate 20", which should be enough. Why put more power into a less efficient bullet that does the same or less actual damage?
People can't tell the difference with hollow-points, either. If this means anything (and I'm not absolutely sure), then the load that gets the deepest penetration with the lightest recoil, namely the wadcutter, wins.
Needless to say, this totally misses the point. Obviously shooting the same load in target practice as one would defensively should have a positive effect on one's proficiency in an actual shooting.
Does not matter.
Then you want a bazooka, not a pistol.
Waywatcher said:
This has no bearing on their terminal ballistics performance, which looks pretty good to me regardless of their intended purpose.
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CajunBass
Member
.
Did that yesterday. I wasn't using a snubbie, and the milk jug was empty, but the 38 wadcutters I was shooting it with were blowing that milk jug around like a stiff wind. They left a very impressive cavity in the dirt on the other side of the creek. Handy to know if I'm ever attacked by a creek bed or a milk jug, I suppose.
But I bet they'd hurt like fire if one was to hit you.
I have yet to find any wadcutters locally to try out in my lightweight Smith M. 37.
I have seen some online but generally they are not that cheap and many times they are even out of them.
In fact I have noticed most .38 Special ammo creeping up in price.
So I just bought a box of Buffaloe Bore 158 gr LSWC Hollow Point that was supposedly made just for the two inch barrel revolvers.
I have seen some online but generally they are not that cheap and many times they are even out of them.
In fact I have noticed most .38 Special ammo creeping up in price.
So I just bought a box of Buffaloe Bore 158 gr LSWC Hollow Point that was supposedly made just for the two inch barrel revolvers.
CoastieShep
Member
So if low velocity equals low power, then a 45-70 isn't really a hard hitting round?
It shoots heavy bullets, at low (compared to modern rifles) velocities.
I've heard many times that hunting with handguns, you want a heavy wide flat nose. Disrupts more tissue than a pointed bullet (in same caliber). Wouldn't that be pretty much the same thing as SD?
While wadcutters might not be ideal, I'm sure they're highly effective.
It shoots heavy bullets, at low (compared to modern rifles) velocities.
I've heard many times that hunting with handguns, you want a heavy wide flat nose. Disrupts more tissue than a pointed bullet (in same caliber). Wouldn't that be pretty much the same thing as SD?
While wadcutters might not be ideal, I'm sure they're highly effective.
Madcap_Magician
Member
Japle said:
Smokes, you must carry a 105mm howitzer in your holster!
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
The .38 Special 148 gr FMJ wadcutter by Atlanta Arms is an interesting cartridge. Shoots well and that copper edge shouldn't deform.
http://www.atlantaarmsandammo.com/products.html
http://www.atlantaarmsandammo.com/products.html
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