Why are .38 wadcutters not considered a good carry load?

[CTI1USNRET]

The velocity of most 38 Spl 148 gr wadcutters is less than 700 fps.

 

[Old Fuff]

The velocity of most 38 Spl 148 gr wadcutters is less than 700 fps.

At close range that isn't necessarily bad. Again, a mid-range/.38 Special wadcutter is obviously not a "best for all circumstance" pick, but they do well in airweight or lighter snubbies because they usually shoot close to the point-of-aim, offer controlable recoil for fast but accurate shots, and don't over-penetrate when that's something you don't want. Because of its full-caliber flat nose it makes the best primary channel you can expect, and is especially distructive on tissue.

Obviously those that dote on high-velocity numbers the above isn't going to look impressive. I have no problem with that, but it's difficult to get impressive numbers out of a 2" barrel unless one goes to a very light bullet, or is willing to get a gun/cartridge combination in a lightweight snubbie that insures that fast repeat shots are probably not going to be accurate because of the recoil. On the other hand, if one is willing to move up to an all-steel (high carbon or stainless) mid-frame revolver with at least a 3" barrel (4" is better yet) going to a heavier load makes sense. In fact that's exactly what the Old Fuff does, but it's darn hard to carry the larger gun in my pants pocket!

Another option (which doesn't belong here so I won't dwell on it) is my much-prized Taurus model 445 - a slightly larger then a S&W K-frame snubbie that has a 5-shot cylinder chambered in .44 Special. But again, it's a bit big for pocket carry, and that's what I do much of the time under normal circumstances.

 

[ThomasT]

The velocity of most 38 Spl 148 gr wadcutters is less than 700 fps.

700 fps doesn't sound fast at all. But if you convert it to MPH its pretty impressive. That 700 fps works out to 477 MPH and everyone knows that that is haulin' a$$.

Also 700fps means your bullet will (in therory) cover two and one third football fields in the time it takes to say "one mississippi". Thats really not too slow is it.

 

[Prosser]

As Fluff has pointed out, the original post mentioned snub nosed revolver, NOT
lightweight snub nosed revolver, and he said for carry.

If you holster carry, I strongly suggest a full on stainless steel, at least 25 oz
revolver for carry.

Cuts recoil velocity to HALF of what it is when using little snubs like my 360PD.

Given a decent weight gun, it's possible to move those wadcutters at 125 grains, at over 1100 fps, and, THAT velocity considerably increases wound channel diameter, and, the gun weight soaks up the recoil.

HS-6 will move a 158 grain wadcutter at around 1000 fps, and that would be a GREAT carry load.

The real answer to this question is the reason .38 Wadcutters are not a good carry load is that the ammo industry has spent a few billion dollars telling everyone that will listen, their largest customers being LEO, that hollow points are the answer to their magic bullet dreams, and, that those old cheap, effective, lead bullets you used to buy for .02 cents each
are worthless, and bounce off bad guys. Now, if you pay 2-3 dollars a round, we take that lead, put a copper jacket on it, put a fancy nose cut on it, and call it a magic bullet, and you buy this?:banghead:

Course you can't afford, unless your department is buying your ammo, or you are Obama, to buy enough of these bullets to get used to them, or, hit a target.

I used to carry to guns in shoulder rigs:
A Detonics Mark VI, essentially this gun, in .451 Detonics, .45 Super now days,and, this .45 Colt Seville.



Not your average gun, but, I used to get hard cast Nevada Bullet Works 230 grain hardball, load it over a full case of H110, or a couple grains less, and shoot all day. The bullets, cast around 22 brinnel, didn't lead, didn't need a gas check, and were dirt cheap, and darn accurate. Figured in those days of 10k chronographs the powder companies data, showing around 1800 fps for that load, were pretty accurate. If you think the above 45 caliber hole in a deer heart is impressive, how about near the same bullet, going at rifle velocity? That's 700 fps FASTER then the 1100 fps the colt bullet was doing above, and, that added velocity increases wound channel diameter, not to mention any bones it hits become very fast, secondary projectiles.

 

[snooperman]

I killed a wild female hog (220lbs) several years ago..

with a 158gr semi-wadcutter bullet going about 700 ft/sec. I was riding my favorite mule "Pedro" around my farm and saw her having a wonderful time uprooting my potato patch in my large vegetable garden. I had my colt Detective stuffed in my waste band holster. I dismounted and rested my arm across the sadle and shot her through the left side. The bullet went through her left lung,heart , and right lung and rested against her rib. She went down quickly. Penetration was about 10 inches. The distance that I shot her was about 12 yards. Up-close these rounds are lethal if shot placement is effective.

 

[Japle]

I had my colt Detective stuffed in my waste band holster. I dismounted and rested my arm across the sadle and shot her through the left side. The bullet went through her left lung,heart , and right lung and rested against her rib. She went down quickly. Penetration was about 10 inches. The distance that I shot her was about 12 yards. Up-close these rounds are lethal if shot placement is effective.

A .22 is lethal. That's not the point.
The OP was asking about SD, which means the shooter is under attack. Killing the attacker doesn't enter into it until the cops arrive. Stopping the attack is what counts and, considering the ammo available for a shorty .38, wadcutter target ammo is close to the last thing I'd choose.

 

[snooperman]

Your response does not make any sense either...

You missed my point,,, If a wild hog can be stopped with a slow moving wadcutter, please tell me why a human can not be stopped with it in self defense. It is irrelevant whether I used my saddle to rest the gun ... the fact remains ..THE ANIMAL DIED QUICKLY. And so can a human if the shot is placed properly. One can place a bullet quickly between the two chest pockets and the results would be the same..DEATH.

 

[pete950]

Snooperman well put, that is correct.

 

[Japle]

So you’re comparing the shooting of an unsuspecting hog with shooting someone who’s trying to kill you?
Wow. And you think I’m missing the point ……

We’re talking about self defense, not hunting.
We’re talking about stopping a deadly threat, not killing a feeding animal.

I once saw a poacher shoot a doe deer through the lungs with a .22. The doe fell on her face, kicked a few times and died. That doesn’t make a .22 a desirable self defense caliber.

Animals have been killed with .22s, .25s, .32s, and .38 target ammo. That’s irrelevant to self defense against a determined/high/drunk/crazy/suicidal attacker.

Hey, you want to trust your life to wimpy ammo? Go to it. It’s your life.

 

[CoastieShep]

Japle, I think what he was saying is that if it's able to kill a hog (which everybody knows is armor plated ) which is tougher than the average bad guy, it should also be able to stop said bad guy, which will probably be at an even shorter distance than the pig was.

 

[snooperman]

CoastieShep, that is what I meant...

It is irrelevant whether we are using the bullet for killing an animal that is not attacking us, or using the same bullet on a bad guy who is attacking.The result would be the same if the shot is placed properly . Death would occur.

 

[Photoman]

I think this thread has included just about every single cliche in the book except...

A hit with a .38 wadcutter is better than a miss with a .38 SuperDuperHighTechMegaVelocityHollowPointDeathRay.

 

[pete950]

I have to say it again but this time Photoman also hit right on the head.

 

[StrawHat]

I wonder if the OP recieved his answer?

 

[Japle]

I wonder if the OP recieved his answer?

If not, here it is:

Shooting a someone who's trying to kill you with a .38 target wadcutter might kill him, but not fast enough to keep him from killing you. There are better choices available.

 

[Old Fuff]

Shooting a someone who's trying to kill you with a .38 target wadcutter might kill him, but not fast enough to keep him from killing you. There are better choices available.

That of course is a matter of (your) opinion...

But the same can be said of any other opinion that's been offered on this thread. The real bottom line is that the effectiveness of any bullet in stopping a confrontation depends on where it hits, and the path it takes. Thus the principal issue becomes one of placement.

Having offered his own views on specific situations where the .38 Wadcutter can be advantageous, the Old Fuff will leave and save the forum some bandwith.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

If all I could afford or nay shoot was a .38 wadcutter, I'd get good and accurate with it when it came to shot placement...wait I do that with all my calibers, also I go to a buddies farm property and shoot coke and red bull cans at seven and twenty yards. I practice drawing under pressure and speed and hitting what I'm aiming at. So a .38 wadcutter to a bad guy's face(below the eyes above the lips, it's a honey comb hit), heart, solar plexus(to take out the spine) ought to do a heck of a lot of damage and be rather effective. And if all one can manage is a snub nose .38, well your ahead of the game relative to a pointy stick.

My mother has a Taurus 85 I bought for her because the Kel-Tec P32 I bought for her wasn't enough in her opinion(quite funny coming from the New York Jewess). She can only handle the Black Hills 148 grain wad cutters I get for her. In her situation, her severe arthritis and fragile body(she bruises easy yet she manages to 70+ hours a week as an accountant) leaves her only able to effectively use a .38 special snub nose with 148 grain wad cutters. Can she hit the center of the head on a silhouette at fifteen feet, yup, can she do it at seven yards(sometimes), can she get off three rounds rapidly into the head of the silhouette at ten feet, you betcha. Now she did grow up shooting rifles so wasn't like I taught her anything(her father was a farm boy, Korean War veteran, and member of the NRA) she didn't already know more or less. She only goes with me once every couple of months(also the time I typically clean and inspect the pistol for her) and has stayed sharp when it comes to her skill, seems like once you have the fundamentals down it's all pretty easy to maintain with the wad cutter. So if you have arthritis, are physically impaired or restricted, don't have the best hand strength, and heavier calibers and ammunition makes shooting difficult, I don't think one would be poorly served by a 148 grain wadcutter.

I don't remember where I read it but there was a Texas Ranger who had a .32-20 and had taken down a fair number of bad guys in his career with the simple caliber. And to be cliche "Would you want to stand in front of it?"

 

[Japle]

The real bottom line is that the effectiveness of any bullet in stopping a confrontation depends on where it hits, and the path it takes. Thus the principal issue becomes one of placement.

That is, in my opinion, one of the most invalid assumptions when it comes to the choice of self defense ammo for the handgun.

Here’s why I say that:

It assumes that the SD shooter will be able to place his shots with anything approaching accuracy in a situation where all the participants are likely to be moving and turning in unpredictable ways.

It assumes that the path a bullet takes through the human body is even remotely under the control of the SD shooter.

If those assumptions were valid, I’d be carrying a 30 round KelTec .22 Mag pistol loaded with solid bullets instead of my XDm 9mm loaded with +P+ JHP ammo.

Actually, if a SD shooter could be sure of placing his shots accurately, he’d only need a .22 Mag derringer. Two perfectly placed shots with lots of penetration and he’d be safe.

Wonderful concept. Someone should tell the cops.

 

[snooperman]

No. someone should tellyou, because most cops I know..

do not share your opinion, including my brother . Why? Because there is overwhelming evidence that contradicts what you are saying. It has been well documented that police , on many occassions have emptied their guns with all shots fired into an assailant and he lived to go to trial. And, they were using police issue hollowpoint bullets. Shot placement is far more important than bullet type.

 

[snooperman]

Even if everyone is moving about as you suggest...

Does that negate the use of wadcutter for self defense.. or is your hollowpoint going to magically stop him without shot placement??

 

[Manco]

That is, in my opinion, one of the most invalid assumptions when it comes to the choice of self defense ammo for the handgun.

Shot placement is invalid?

Here’s why I say that:

It assumes that the SD shooter will be able to place his shots with anything approaching accuracy in a situation where all the participants are likely to be moving and turning in unpredictable ways.

Whether the SD shooter can accurately place his shots or not doesn't change the fact that where a bullet strikes is the primary determinant of how effective it will be. Bullets that penetrate all the way through have more potential than those that do not, and .38 Special wadcutters should penetrate plenty. Larger-diameter bullets add a margin to shot placement precision, but this margin is very small in comparison to the target (particularly if it is moving), thus placement remains the chief factor of any shot.

It assumes that the path a bullet takes through the human body is even remotely under the control of the SD shooter.

On the contrary, I think that so many random factors are involved that shot placement--at the level where lead meets flesh--is determined more by luck than by skill. The latter certainly helps one place shots somewhere on the target, but exactly what the bullets damage and how effective they are depends almost entirely on luck (unless the target is just standing there letting you execute him with a precisely aimed shot). But regardless of whether it is skill or luck that determines shot placement, it is still primarily what determines the effectiveness of the shot.

If those assumptions were valid, I’d be carrying a 30 round KelTec .22 Mag pistol loaded with solid bullets instead of my XDm 9mm loaded with +P+ JHP ammo.

In general terms, that would be logical because more shots on target is more effective than fewer shots even if the latter were in a larger caliber (assuming adequate penetration potential). That said, because in a dynamic scenario you may not be able to land more than a few shots in a given amount of time, it is not necessarily advantageous to use a smaller caliber just because of greater shot capacity, when a larger caliber may be slightly more effective per shot. The main advantage of smaller calibers (or lighter loads such as the .38 Special wadcutter) is that some folks can shoot them better and faster, which can easily overwhelm the slight advantage in effectiveness of larger, more powerful calibers. Why? Because shot placement--regardless of how it is achieved--matters more than bullet size and velocity (assuming adequate penetration).

Actually, if a SD shooter could be sure of placing his shots accurately, he’d only need a .22 Mag derringer. Two perfectly placed shots with lots of penetration and he’d be safe.

The problem is that the same principles apply to larger, more powerful calibers and loads, as well. Given adequate penetration in all cases, their increased size and velocity only give them a minute advantage--not negligible but still insignificant next to shot placement. You're very slightly less likely to completely miss with something larger, but if you do, then it's still a miss and the shot is stopping nobody anytime soon, just as with smaller calibers.

Wonderful concept.

Reality is what it is, and it doesn't care about being wonderful.

Someone should tell the cops.

Meaning no offense to those who protect and serve, but the way I've seen some cops shoot their duty ammo, maybe someone should! The problem is that they expect to have a reasonable capability to defeat various barriers while still inflicting lethal wounds, and admittedly .38 Special wadcutters as well as smaller calibers are probably insufficient for such purposes. Then again, I don't think that anybody has claimed otherwise, as most people aren't concerned with shooting bad guys through things, or even prefer to use ammo that will not penetrate barriers well.

 

[Prosser]

Answer to OP:

generally, .38 Wadcutters are not considered a good carry load because they are loaded very slowly for target work. There is a huge difference between
a .38 wadcutter at 600-700 fps and 1000-1200 fps, in wound channel diameter, and effect on target.

So, in short, they are not a good carry load because they are generally loaded too slow.

 

[NoirFan]

generally, .38 Wadcutters are not considered a good carry load because they are loaded very slowly for target work. There is a huge difference between a .38 wadcutter at 600-700 fps and 1000-1200 fps, in wound channel diameter, and effect on target.

But again, I have to ask, if the slow wadcutter penetrates more than the FBI standard, does the velocity and energy matter? It may not seem to hit very hard but it punches a deep-enough hole while retaining its shape and mass, with the major benefit of very little recoil. Even if a 1000-1200 fps bullet makes a significantly larger wound channel (and it might) you are not gonna get there with any controllable load out of a .38 snub.

That is, in my opinion, one of the most invalid assumptions when it comes to the choice of self defense ammo for the handgun.

It assumes that the path a bullet takes through the human body is even remotely under the control of the SD shooter.

Some have told stories of wadcutters glancing off skull and bone while hunting, so that is a concern. Other hunters though, have reported good results with flat faced bullets, so it's not conclusive.

 

[Stainz]

Nothing I've read here will dissuade from suggesting the 148gr wadcutter, certainly a target round, for the recoil shy. RN & SWC's at higher velocities have been known to leave smaller wound channels, albeit deeper. No, a slower wadcutter won't shatter a pelvis - but that would be a poor shot, anyway. The benefit of the 148gr wadcutter is it's lower recoil - and that makes it adaptable to the recoil shy, being they a small women - or a large, elderly, and arthritic guy. It cuts a clean .357" hole for more rapid exsanguination.

Me - I still load my 642 and 2 5/8" PC627 UDR alike - with +P 158gr LSWCHP's... but, when the day comes that I cannot handle them, I'll reach for the wadcutters. Interesting thread!

Stainz

 

[snooperman]

NoirFan , you are correct...

A slow moving wadcutter, 650-700 ft/sec, has plenty of energy to stop an attacker at close encounters for CCW. And , since recoil is less more shots can be put on the attacker faster and with greater effect. That is not to say that those who use hollowpoints are wrong in their choice. Evidence shows that shot placement is critical regardless of the bullet used.