jimmyraythomason
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Savage/Springfield/Stevens made a lot of them. The Models 40,45, 325, 340, and 840 were all bolt actions that could be had in 30/30 win. along with Sears, Wards and Western Auto versions.
Why are 7.62x39 not common in bolt action rifles?
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fotheringill
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Before you order a CZ in 7.62x39, call CZ and ask if the rifle will chamber the cheap white box ammo. It won't. It is a fine rifle, very accurate at shorter distances but falls off at 200+. You need to shoot at least Wolf or Tulamo with the coating on the shell.
This did not happen to me but to my shooting pal. I witnessed the fail to cycle the round in.
This did not happen to me but to my shooting pal. I witnessed the fail to cycle the round in.
Fireman 9731, I hope I can shoot mine that well. Just bought my CZ527 and haven't had it out yet. Put a 2X7 scope on it and can't wait. I've read nothing but rave reviews for this gun, and your shooting seems to support that!
There's no right or wrong here, just personal preference. I bought the CZ cause i have tons of 7.62, and I already have a Sig 716 in .308. I very much expect my CZ to get more action because the Sig is a heavy gun. Difference between sub 6 lb and 9.3 lbs is huge!
As to the effectiveness of the 7.62 cartridge, a definite win for the .308 but not so much for the .223. The 7.62 is more powerful, not less, than the .223 fired out of similar length barrels, both in muzzle energy and impact energy (even out to 300 yards). As for those that dispute it's distance, plenty of people shoot tight groups with it at 400 yards (with a decent rifle, not a cheap AK).
So, I don't have a reason to defend one or the other, as I have both. But go ahead and read some reviews on the CZ527. This gun is very well thought of by those that have used it.
There's no right or wrong here, just personal preference. I bought the CZ cause i have tons of 7.62, and I already have a Sig 716 in .308. I very much expect my CZ to get more action because the Sig is a heavy gun. Difference between sub 6 lb and 9.3 lbs is huge!
As to the effectiveness of the 7.62 cartridge, a definite win for the .308 but not so much for the .223. The 7.62 is more powerful, not less, than the .223 fired out of similar length barrels, both in muzzle energy and impact energy (even out to 300 yards). As for those that dispute it's distance, plenty of people shoot tight groups with it at 400 yards (with a decent rifle, not a cheap AK).
So, I don't have a reason to defend one or the other, as I have both. But go ahead and read some reviews on the CZ527. This gun is very well thought of by those that have used it.
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d2wing
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I don't know about your state but here FMJ is not legal for hunting. You have to buy commercial soft point. But I think some cheap soft points can be found.
7.62x39 quality ammo can be accurate in a good bolt action. Varmint rounds like the .223 are more popular. It is true that the 7.62x39 has a little more energy than the .223. But the higher cavitation rate cause it to be more effective in deer size game, with the advantage of more accuracy and range. But both work fine at close range. I have used both on deer and give a slight edge to the .223 because it makes mush of the lungs and heart while the 7.62 makes a cleaner hole with little cavitation. In many ways it is a wash.
7.62x39 quality ammo can be accurate in a good bolt action. Varmint rounds like the .223 are more popular. It is true that the 7.62x39 has a little more energy than the .223. But the higher cavitation rate cause it to be more effective in deer size game, with the advantage of more accuracy and range. But both work fine at close range. I have used both on deer and give a slight edge to the .223 because it makes mush of the lungs and heart while the 7.62 makes a cleaner hole with little cavitation. In many ways it is a wash.
armoredman
Member
M1key, thank you for ruining my breakfast - that is one ugly rifle-like thing! The NRA Museum would have loved that one for display.
Umm, not so much. Mine hasn't failed with anything I've found yet. The only issues I had was with ultra hard primers, and that sometimes led to misfires. I have had no difficulty chambering or firing any ammo I've tried, and I've used a few different factory loads here and there. As for accuracy, I think we posted some refutations of that here and there, but let me show another.
200 yards with NOE 129 grain bullet. Front rested.
300 yard target, with red dot added to show where the other strike was. Front rested, scoped. I no longer use a scope on this carbine.
200 yards, front rested, scoped.
There's another person here who shoots 7.62x39mm out of another rifle who gets groups that make me look like a piker.
Now, before we make this thread solely about the wonderful CZ 527M, I believe it was simply about the availability of bolt rifles in this caliber. I'd have to agree with a few premises;
1) The round is widely seen as an AK/SKS round, and some of the surplus stuff out there doesn't inspire much confidence as a hunting round.
2) Where the bolt rifle in this caliber came out, the round is widely available, has been for decades, and is seen as something that works, with few of the restrictions on hunting ammo that we have in the US. Note, I am not disagreeing with our restrictions, as FMJ doesn't strike me, (no pun intended), as a effective hunting round, while other bullet designs exist.
3), Americans are used to having wide varieties of rifles and ammunition available - other countries, not so much. Might be all the explanation you need, right there, a bolt action rifle, (palatable to more restrictive governments), that takes a common round in a place that has few other commonly produced civilian ammo. Just a thought.
Regardless, it's fun, accurate, light, handy, etc., same arguments that can be raised for carrying an AR-15 into the bush, (without ten tons of Tommy Tactical add-ons, that is), for a camp rifle, etc. Can't argue with that, wouldn't try, but I can say my impractical, practical carbine does the trick for me.
Umm, not so much. Mine hasn't failed with anything I've found yet. The only issues I had was with ultra hard primers, and that sometimes led to misfires. I have had no difficulty chambering or firing any ammo I've tried, and I've used a few different factory loads here and there. As for accuracy, I think we posted some refutations of that here and there, but let me show another.
200 yards with NOE 129 grain bullet. Front rested.
300 yard target, with red dot added to show where the other strike was. Front rested, scoped. I no longer use a scope on this carbine.
200 yards, front rested, scoped.
There's another person here who shoots 7.62x39mm out of another rifle who gets groups that make me look like a piker.
Now, before we make this thread solely about the wonderful CZ 527M, I believe it was simply about the availability of bolt rifles in this caliber. I'd have to agree with a few premises;
1) The round is widely seen as an AK/SKS round, and some of the surplus stuff out there doesn't inspire much confidence as a hunting round.
2) Where the bolt rifle in this caliber came out, the round is widely available, has been for decades, and is seen as something that works, with few of the restrictions on hunting ammo that we have in the US. Note, I am not disagreeing with our restrictions, as FMJ doesn't strike me, (no pun intended), as a effective hunting round, while other bullet designs exist.
3), Americans are used to having wide varieties of rifles and ammunition available - other countries, not so much. Might be all the explanation you need, right there, a bolt action rifle, (palatable to more restrictive governments), that takes a common round in a place that has few other commonly produced civilian ammo. Just a thought.
Regardless, it's fun, accurate, light, handy, etc., same arguments that can be raised for carrying an AR-15 into the bush, (without ten tons of Tommy Tactical add-ons, that is), for a camp rifle, etc. Can't argue with that, wouldn't try, but I can say my impractical, practical carbine does the trick for me.
Swampman
Old Fart
Could you please give more information?
Was it hard or impossible to chamber?
What exactly was the problem?
I've shot a lot of "WWB" type ammo through SKS's and AK's.
If it cycled without problems in a semi auto, I just can't see it causing problems in a manually operated bolt action.
Please explain the problems in greater detail.
It took a long time for the 308 to become popular because it was compared to the 30-06.
If we had a .308 in the rack it usually sat there if there were 30-06 or 270s for sale.
Now with recoil reduction loads on the market...the increased kick of the 308 over the 7.62X39 becomes almost comparable yet the .308 Win guy still has a 30-06 class weapon if he needs it.
The 300 Savage lost out to the .308 and the 16 gauge lost out to the 3" magnum 20 ga.
So, based on one incident, which could have potentially several different causes, you feel as though you can definitively state that this cheap ammo won't feed? Others haven't reported this issue,and a single incidence is hardly evidence of anything at all. "Seeing" something happen is a far different thing than actually understanding what is you observed. Complicating the issue further is that the malfunction didn't even occur when you were handling the gun, but when someone else was....could have been anything from one possible out of spec round to the gun being dirty, or the bolt not being worked properly. You can't identify the problem and make a declarative statement as to the rifles's capability of shooting a certain ammo based on what you saw happen to your friend once on the range
Just cause I saw a pig fly once doesn't mean it had wings...it could have been shot from a catapult! One needs ALL pertinent info before actually really "understanding" what one has "seen"
Talked with a guy at the range recently who experienced the same thing. His rifle wouldn't fire WWB. He called CZ and was told to shoot European ammo (Fiocchi, PPU, S&B) or Russian steel-cased ammo only. A friend of mine sold his when he found this out.The CZ website states the following:So, based on one incident, which could have potentially several different causes, you feel as though you can definitively state that this cheap ammo won't feed? Others haven't reported this issue,and a single incidence is hardly evidence of anything at all. "Seeing" something happen is a far different thing than actually understanding what is you observed. Complicating the issue further is that the malfunction didn't even occur when you were handling the gun, but when someone else was....could have been anything from one possible out of spec round to the gun being dirty, or the bolt not being worked properly. You can't identify the problem and make a declarative statement as to the rifles's capability of shooting a certain ammo based on what you saw happen to your friend once on the range
"Built to CIP specifications, our 7.62×39 chambers are ideal for shooting steel-cased surplus ammo. Designed to shoot .311 bullets, some American brass ammo may not perform as well as the imported steel-cased variety because of SAAMI brass dimensions and varying bullet diameters."
M
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minutemen1776
Member
I picked up my CZ 527 Carbine late yesterday. I sold my Polish AK and several mags to fund this purchase. And, I'm glad I did so.
My new CZ 527 is a gorgeous gun. The fit and finish are much better than most of what I see in gun shops lately. A CZ bolt action is certainly not cheap, but I don't mind the extra cost if the product is superior, and that appears to be the case here.
I thought long and hard before dropping money on a CZ Carbine in 7.62x39. Ballistically, it is certainly no .308, but I think that's quite obvious to anyone with a basic knowledge of rifle cartridges. It is similar, but not identical, to a .30-30, which is a proven round for short- and medium range deep hunting. Personally, EVERY deer I've ever killed has been taken at a range of less than 100 yards, and I've seldom hunted in spots where longer distances were even in play. So, for me and the way I hunt, the 7.62x39 round makes sense.
For those who are skeptical of these little rifles, compare one alongside a full-size rifle. What you give up in range and power is made up in compactness, portability, and shootability. I LOVE the size of the CZ 527, and the fact that it can be shot A LOT with it beating you up or draining your wallet. That means something to me.
As for shooting Winchester white box ammo, I don't understand the big deal. There's certainly no shortage of good, cheap ammo in this caliber. If Winchester's offering doesn't measure up, many (better) options are available.
Finally, I see no reason to denigrate 7.63x39 bolt guns because they are a niche performer rather than an all-around hunting rifle. Surely we all know that it's possible to own multiple rifles. For longer ranges, I DO have a .308, but I don't have to use it for everything. Sometimes, smaller is better.
My new CZ 527 is a gorgeous gun. The fit and finish are much better than most of what I see in gun shops lately. A CZ bolt action is certainly not cheap, but I don't mind the extra cost if the product is superior, and that appears to be the case here.
I thought long and hard before dropping money on a CZ Carbine in 7.62x39. Ballistically, it is certainly no .308, but I think that's quite obvious to anyone with a basic knowledge of rifle cartridges. It is similar, but not identical, to a .30-30, which is a proven round for short- and medium range deep hunting. Personally, EVERY deer I've ever killed has been taken at a range of less than 100 yards, and I've seldom hunted in spots where longer distances were even in play. So, for me and the way I hunt, the 7.62x39 round makes sense.
For those who are skeptical of these little rifles, compare one alongside a full-size rifle. What you give up in range and power is made up in compactness, portability, and shootability. I LOVE the size of the CZ 527, and the fact that it can be shot A LOT with it beating you up or draining your wallet. That means something to me.
As for shooting Winchester white box ammo, I don't understand the big deal. There's certainly no shortage of good, cheap ammo in this caliber. If Winchester's offering doesn't measure up, many (better) options are available.
Finally, I see no reason to denigrate 7.63x39 bolt guns because they are a niche performer rather than an all-around hunting rifle. Surely we all know that it's possible to own multiple rifles. For longer ranges, I DO have a .308, but I don't have to use it for everything. Sometimes, smaller is better.
jimmyraythomason
Member
Yep! My 3 grand daughters (ages 9, 7 and 7) are just now getting into shooting center fire rifles. A carbine length bolt action in 7.62x39mm seems the PERFECT fit.
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200Apples
Mojave Lever Crew
If you're raising them to be men, then, yes. LOL.
Kidding. ...but the X 39 variant of the 527 Carbine does indeed have some recoil. Consider, too, for your young ladies the .223 chambering. My son acquired one recently (and these have CZ's blessing for use with 5.56) and I gotta say I have a new-found respect for the speedy little poodle-shooter cartridge. Man! What fun that is.
jimmyraythomason
Member
Had one, a Stevens Model 200. The oldest granddaughter has been shooting rim fires since she was 4. She loves shooting a High Point 9mm carbine, M1 carbine and an AK-47. The 7.62x39 fills my needs perfectly. I guess I will just get one of those re-cut Remington barrels with a .308 bore and build a 16'' barreled Savage/Stevens
carbine for them to learn on. BTW, I'm not discounting the .223, I'm going to get another but in addition to the 7.62x39, not in place of it.
For another interesting option dont forget the Sig 556 r. 7.62x39.
In America when it comes to rifles allegiances to a cartiridge or rifle type are prevalent and measurable in terms of economic activity. In short, those who like 7.62x39 probly cut their teeth on the SKS. So when time comes to buy their first 7.62x39 they are probly not thinking bolt. If there had never been the sks or ak here, but tons of milsurp ammo maybe there would be some more bolts or even box fed levers for it.
In America when it comes to rifles allegiances to a cartiridge or rifle type are prevalent and measurable in terms of economic activity. In short, those who like 7.62x39 probly cut their teeth on the SKS. So when time comes to buy their first 7.62x39 they are probly not thinking bolt. If there had never been the sks or ak here, but tons of milsurp ammo maybe there would be some more bolts or even box fed levers for it.
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jimmyraythomason
Member
Not for me and my purposes. As already said I have Aks and SKSs and Mini 30s. Another semi auto just puts me right back where I started but thanks for the suggestion.
Dr T
Member
Frankly, I put the 7.62x39 in the same class with the 30-30 for perfomance.
I don't see a real need for a boltgun in this class, but I have always liked the CZ. It would probably be just as useful as the CZ in .221 Fireball (but used for different things.)
I don't see a real need for a boltgun in this class, but I have always liked the CZ. It would probably be just as useful as the CZ in .221 Fireball (but used for different things.)
d2wing
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When my girls started hunting about 12 years old, I bought them and SKS, which was too front heavy for them to aim well. A 30-30 lever was better but had more recoil. The 30-30 does have more power. The trajectory is about the same as the 7.62x39 but the 30-30 has a lot more energy and SD due to much heavier bullets. A Remington 788 in .243 and a couple other guns that I don't remember. At that time the .223 wasn't legal. If I had know about the CZ in 7.62 I would have bought one. It would have been ideal.
Shooter973
Member
7.62x39 Bolt action rifles.
I have one of only 2 or 3 Ruger bolts i've ever seen. Mine is the stainless in a boat paddle stock. Has a moderate cost 3x9 scope on it. I also own a couple of SKS's. The Ruger shoots rings around any sks. With the cheap surplus ammo it stays right around 1 inch. I love shooting it, especially when I don't want to spend more time at the reloading bench.It's a relief not to have to chase cases and spend the day at the reloader. I can rock the 300 yrd. gong time after time, with ease. It's just a lot of fun to shoot.I stockpiled sevral thousand rounds of the "cheap" ammo. I even stocked piled 3000 rounds of 123gr. soft points.for $99 a thousand. It has taken a couple of mule deer with out a problem. I also own 2 Rem.788's in 30-30, that are great also. I cast and reload of them and they do have a good bit more power than the 7.62x39. I load 170gr.cast right up to factory level loads. The 7.62 is still cheaper to shoot than the 30-30's with the cost of primers and gas checks. I like letting my grandsons shoot it.It doesn't beat on them at all. I'll never let it go, it's so much fun.
I have one of only 2 or 3 Ruger bolts i've ever seen. Mine is the stainless in a boat paddle stock. Has a moderate cost 3x9 scope on it. I also own a couple of SKS's. The Ruger shoots rings around any sks. With the cheap surplus ammo it stays right around 1 inch. I love shooting it, especially when I don't want to spend more time at the reloading bench.It's a relief not to have to chase cases and spend the day at the reloader. I can rock the 300 yrd. gong time after time, with ease. It's just a lot of fun to shoot.I stockpiled sevral thousand rounds of the "cheap" ammo. I even stocked piled 3000 rounds of 123gr. soft points.for $99 a thousand. It has taken a couple of mule deer with out a problem. I also own 2 Rem.788's in 30-30, that are great also. I cast and reload of them and they do have a good bit more power than the 7.62x39. I load 170gr.cast right up to factory level loads. The 7.62 is still cheaper to shoot than the 30-30's with the cost of primers and gas checks. I like letting my grandsons shoot it.It doesn't beat on them at all. I'll never let it go, it's so much fun.
fireman 9731
Member
I dont know what the fuss about the Winchester ammo is. I haven't tried any in mine because its junk. Its not the rifles fault that winchester makes out of spec metric ammo. Compare the shoulder angles side by side with some steal cased ammo and you will see that instead of a normal shoulder, the winchester has a rounded shoulder.
No need to buy Winchester when there are much better options out there for a fraction of the cost.
No need to buy Winchester when there are much better options out there for a fraction of the cost.
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