Why are CZ-75 clones so popular?

[DMK]

There seems to be a number of CZ-75 clones on the market, the latest being the Armalite AR24. Why would '75 clones be so popular? Real CZ-75s are reasonably priced, readily available, reliable. Why would someone want a clone over the original?

I suppose one could say there are a lot of Colt 1911 clones also, but for the most part, they are well below the price of the Colts or are heavily customized if they aren't. Also some don't want to buy a Colt for political reasons or due to dissatisfaction with them. As far as I know, this doesn't generally seem to be the case with CZ.

 

[hkusp]

Ergonomics. I have yet to meet someone who didn't feel like my CZ's didn't fit them like a glove. Decent SA triggers. C&L carry. Solid as a tank. Cheap. What's not to like?

 

[ugaarguy]

There seems to be a number of CZ-75 clones on the market, the latest being the Armalite AR24. Why would '75 clones be so popular? Real CZ-75s are reasonably priced, readily available, reliable. Why would someone want a clone over the original?

EAA imports Tanfoglio's pistols as their Witness line. Those actually do compete on price. In particular the price difference between the feature laden competition style guns such EAA Witness Match and the CZ-75 Tactical Sport and Champion is huge.

The other two prominent clones are business driven. Magnum Research was already importing the Desert Eagle pistols from Israel Military Industries (IMI). Capitalizing on the DE name magnum Research was able to enter the mainstream handgun market with IMI's CZ clones, sold as the Baby Eagle line. The Baby Eagle makes sense because it's a quality handgun sourced from a company with which you already have a business partnership.

Armalite's AR-24 is built by Sarsilmaz in Turkey. In this deal Armalite got exclusive disribution rights of Sarsilmaz pistols in the US - if not all of North America - and Sarsilmaz became Armalite's exclusive rifle distributor in the Mediterranean region. This partnership gets Armalite into the huge US pistol market with a quality proven platform at a reasonable cost. It also gets them into the rifle market in the Med. Region thru Sarsilmaz, who's a respected military & civillian arms company there. I believe there are also provisions of the deal for Armalite to supply rifles & parts to the Turkish military, via Sarsilmaz, since they (Sarsilmaz) already supply the standard issue sidearm. Both companies get to expand their own line with the other's product, and their own product gets a new market. Pretty smart on their part I think.

 

[briang2ad]

Agree

It SEEMS that the clones are uneeded, being that the CZ fulfills a niche - and much smaller than the Glock/SIG/etc. crowd and the plastic gun market in general. BUt as said, EAA has a gun at considerably cheaper prices. IMI BE is a bit different, although similar price. We'll have to see how the AR 24 stacks up. I have yet to read the AR article, but scanning it, it looks to be at least as well executed as the CZ and at the same price line (MSRP around $500). They may generally beat the price, and MAY have better fit/finish/trigger - we'll see. The pics say it may be a well-executed piece.

 

[atblis]

CZ doesn't sell

CZ does not sell a
10mm Automatic
or a
38 Super Automatic
There's two reasons right there

Witnesses can be had for ~$300, CZ75s have crept up to ~$400

Also, the Elite Witness guns give CZ a good run for the money.

Large frame Witnesses actually fit me a tad bit better than a 75B.

However. I love 10mm and 38Super but I currently have 0 Witnesses and maybe 7 or 8 CZs.
Why?
I had several quality issues with Witnesses, and EAA were utter turds about it (and that's putting it nicely).
I have had very little quality issues with CZ.

EAA/Tanfoglio could give CZ a very good run for the money, but they have nagging quality issues which are only compounded by their now infamous customer service. And yes, it can be every bit as bad as everybody says it is.

 

[ktd]

Historically, CZs were hard to get and when they did become available changed distributors on an almost yearly basis it seemed. Then the Witness/P9 has some popularity during IPSC a while back ago. There have also been some interesting niche CZ clones, like the very high quality Sphinx and Spitfire(was that what it was called?) and others like Witness, offer variations that CZ does not. CZ75 types (especially Tanfoglio) are popular in the rest of the world. The real CZ is very popular as a military arm in muc of the world as well.

I think when some companies think about what foreign line they should import, companies that make the CZ design are attractive because of price point, established design, etc, so the importer goes ahead and enters another me-too bid for the market. The foreign maker goes along, they might make some money here, and they are already making money in their own market.

 

[obxned]

Tanfoglio/EAA Witness

My son recently bought one. Workmanship and finish are as good as any. It cost about $75 less than the same basic thing with the CZ label on it. Oh, and the grips were nicer too.

 

[strat81]

Why does Ford make the Fusion and the Milan? Why does GM make the Tahoe and the Yukon? Slightly different markets want slightly different features, styles, and prices. It's the same thing with cars, guns, and countless other products.

 

[TonyT]

Ergonomics ! The CZ pistols appear to fit my hand so perfectly.

 

[ktd]

ugaarguy, one thing to note is that IMI gets their frames and I think their slides from Tanfoglio, much like some companies here supply parts to other companies in addition to their own guns.

Like some people have mentioned, while the CZs are still reasonably priced, there is always someone who will buy a clone if it is a couple bucks cheaper. We all know people who pick solely based on price.

 

[tnieto2004]

Where could I get my hands on one of these things?

 

[DMK]

Ergonomics. I have yet to meet someone who didn't feel like my CZ's didn't fit them like a glove. Decent SA triggers. C&L carry. Solid as a tank. Cheap. What's not to like?

Ergonomics ! The CZ pistols appear to fit my hand so perfectly.

So why not just get a real CZ then? Why take a chance on a second rate clone.

 

[DMK]

CZ does not sell a
10mm Automatic
or a
38 Super Automatic
There's two reasons right there

That is a good point. I have to admit I've casually considered a Witness fullsize in 10mm or their compact in 45ACP. If they had a better rep, I might have done it. I'd never choose one over a CZ of the same caliber though. I'll gladly pay the extra $75 or so.

 

[Heavy Metal Hero]

I honestly think the Baby Eagles look better than CZs. I have always been attracted to them.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Just went with a CZ myself. I prefer to own the original rather than a copy when possible, especially when the original is only slightly more money and appears to be better.

Armalite convinced me to buy it. I figured if they were going through the hassle to copy the CZ it had to be pretty good

 

[wally]

Other than the 1911, isn't the CZ75 the only other handgun Jeff Cooper (RIP) liked?

Like the 1911 & AK its a great design and deserves to be cloned.

If I could only have two handguns and they both couldn't be 1911s, I'd pick the CZ75 as the second.

--wally.

 

[GaryArkansas]

Do the clones also have hammer forged barrels?

Kinda curious about that. The CZ action is about as smooth and hassle free as anything I've used.

I'll admit, I also saw the article and I'd like a chance to shoot this gun. The AR has a round trigger guard, something not present on modern CZ 75s.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Tanfolgio and most of the other clones got their start when CZ-75s were still on the other side of the Cold War and were scarce in some markets (like the US) due to import restrictions, etc.

Tanfolgio has taken their CZ clones into some formats and calibers that CZ doesn't do, like the 10mm and 38 Super and .45 compacts that others have mentioned. The Jerichos/Baby Eagles don't bring a lot to the table (in my opinion, and no offense to their fans -- they seem well made) except that in 45 cal they seem a bit smaller in the hand than the CZ-97. Tanfolgio and IMI both do polymer frames these days, if I'm not mistaken, which may be a selling point for some people.

I'm less clear on what the AR-24 brings to the table. It's a CZ clone with some modest modifications and it can't take stock CZ magazines, meaning you're limited to Armalite mags (which hold one less round than CZ-75 or Compact mags in either size). I think I was kind of turned off by the American Rifleman article on them that pretty much gave you the sense that the only CZ-75s available today are cheap Czech models and Italian clones, which kind of struck me like writing an article about the Charles Daly High Powers and knocking BHPs made by FN in the process.

 

[DMK]

Armalite convinced me to buy it. I figured if they were going through the hassle to copy the CZ it had to be pretty good

I was thinking that too. Imitation is the highest form of flattery.

Other than the 1911, isn't the CZ75 the only other handgun Jeff Cooper (RIP) liked?

Jeff Cooper has recommended lots of guns. They're just all big bores. The CZ75 is probably the only 9mm he likes.

(Of course now they have a CZ75B in .40, but I think he was bragging on the original CZ-75, not the 75B)

I'm less clear on what the AR-24 brings to the table.

Yea, it was after reading two articles about the Armalite, when my brow wrinkled and I kept thinking "what's the point?"

 

[ozarkhillbilly]

What HorseSoldier said is 100% correct.

Tanfolgio and most of the other clones got their start when CZ-75s were still on the other side of the Cold War and were scarce in some markets (like the US) due to import restrictions, etc

CZs had the reputation for being great guns but almost impossible to get, so Tanfolgio stated making them and EAA is the current importer. It is one of the better designd 9mm pistols and that accounts for so many copies.

I understand why Tanfolgio makes them and IMI makes the Jericho’s, both where made before the cold war ended, but I have know idea why any new companies would want to jump in the market now because the they are one of the lowest priced handguns on the market. Where is the profit margin in a well made $350 dollar handgun with a ton of competition that is identical to your product. I get the 1911s, find a good 1911 that compares to a CZ and your going to pay a whole lot more then $350 to $400.

 

[ugaarguy]

ugaarguy, one thing to note is that IMI gets their frames and I think their slides from Tanfoglio, much like some companies here supply parts to other companies in addition to their own guns.

Like some people have mentioned, while the CZs are still reasonably priced, there is always someone who will buy a clone if it is a couple bucks cheaper. We all know people who pick solely based on price.

Regardless of where IMI gets their parts MRI and IMI have a business partnership. The Desert Eagle has undeniable cult status and name recognition. If you can play off that name recognition with another product from the company you already do business with it's a sound move.

I understand why Tanfolgio makes them and IMI makes the Jericho’s, both where made before the cold war ended, but I have know idea why any new companies would want to jump in the market now because the they are one of the lowest priced handguns on the market. Where is the profit margin in a well made $350 dollar handgun with a ton of competition that is identical to your product.

The profit margin for Armalite is in a gun that's made in Turkey on tooling that's already paid for. Look at the Stoeger Cougar. In 1996 when Beretta introduced the Cougar it sold for around $600. In 2006 the Cougar returned as a Stoeger for $350. Send your paid off tooling from Italy to Turkey and production costs drop significantly, so that's where the profit margin is. Back up Armalite's customer service vs. EAA's customer service and you add value to the Armalite branded product. Add Armalite's name recognition and established dealer network and that helps them even more. If they get Sarsilmaz to build these in .38 Super & 10MM they can take away EAA's caliber niche too. There's no guarantee any of this will happen, but it'll be interesting to watch over the next few years and see how it plays out.

 

[sandy4570]

There seems to be a number of CZ-75 clones on the market, the latest being the Armalite AR24. Why would '75 clones be so popular? Real CZ-75s are reasonably priced, readily available, reliable. Why would someone want a clone over the original?

The only reason I can think of is the price .I just pick up (well used ) Tanfoglio TA90 for $245 last month ,the real CZ 75/85 goes for $425 in my area but occasionally there are used CZ75 for $350 .I would like to have real CZ 75/85 some day (and the real Browning Highpower and Colt M1911 ,too ) .

 

[mstirton]

Some day I'll have a real SIG210 and until then I can shoot CZs and those like it to make believe.

 

[ozarkhillbilly]

ugaarguy
Good point. I did not realize Turkey already had the tooling, and EAAs customer service is the only reason I do not have one of their guns in 10mm, actually I have considered several of their guns at different times but bad customer service record has always stopped me.

 

[dfariswheel]

The reason the Tanfoglio clones are popular has more to do with innovation and meeting customer demands better than CZ.

Tanfoglio started out making virtually exact copies of the CZ-75 when CZ was still not importable from what was still a communist country.
The situation changed after CZ became importable and Tanfoglio started improving the design.
CZ has traditionally been very slow, even reluctant to upgrade or offer options, while Tanfoglio has been driving the design.
Today, it's Tanfoglio that's the innovator, and CZ that's the follower and copier.

This started before the CZ was importable, when CZ announced they were going to offer a new Commander-type rounded hammer. This new hammer was going to become available in 5 to 8 YEARS.
Tanfoglio introduced their new Commander hammer THAT year.

Tanfoglio was the first to offer:
Calibers other than the 9mm.
A larger frame for the 10mm and .45 ACP.
Conversion kits.
Better sights.
Ambidextrous safeties.
Wood grips as standard.
Full-length guide rods.
The now industry standard spring-loaded plunger that lifts the trigger bar.
Finishes like stainless steel and hard chrome.
"Race gun" versions.
Longer slide versions.
Polymer versions.
Compact versions.
A firing pin lock.
Frame grip grooves.
And many others.

One area where Tanfoglio has been more innovative is in their triggers.
CZ has been very reluctant to change the original design which puts the trigger very far forward in the trigger guard, and which has a rather poor trigger shape.
This makes the reach very far for most shooters.
Tanfoglio changed the trigger to one that lays farther back in the guard, reducing the reach, then quickly altered the shape to give the trigger an even better curve which made the reach even better.

CZ has only recently begun to offer the Tanfoglio type trigger on some models, but still uses the old design even on large guns like the CZ-97B, which is virtually unusable for people with smaller hands because of the trigger.

Another example of CZ's unwillingness or inability to meet customer demands is that many CZ guns do not have an ambidextrous safety, and no ambi safety is offered as an option or after-market accessory.
If you want an ambi safety on a CZ, you have to have a gunsmith fit....a Tanfoglio accessory ambidextrous safety.

So, while Tanfoglio started out as a straight "Clone" maker, they quickly began to adapt to the market and offer options and upgrades, while CZ remains a much more conservative company that now follows Tanfoglio's lead.
Due to their innovation and cheaper price, Tanfoglio has established themselves in the market by offering what CZ is unable or unwilling to offer, and at a better price.