Why are shotguns so reviled for big game hunting?

[JShirley]

I went "all slug" for any serious shotgun work years ago. Shotguns are a customized bolt-action Mossberg (haven't shot in years- needs to go back to the factory to have it checked. The safety automatically engages after every shot), and a ghost ring Mossberg 500. I've taken two deer, one from each of those guns, in the last 12 years, and another 6 or so with rifles.

I sure miss Georgia.

 

[Hookeye]

I only have a couple dozen slug gun kills, so my data set might be on the small side.

Fster slugs behind the shoulder........20 to 150 yards.........deer usually run an avg of 50 yards. Some go down in a couple of steps, some go 100 or so.
So call it 50 yards avg.

Rifled bore and HI Supremes got me 5 deer. 3 of them folded. One went 40 yards and the other 75. The farthest one was shot at 8 yards, on edge of shoulder, slug to back opp ham.

Switched to go for breakdown of shoulder in shot placement.

Foster on 25 yarder. Blew bone chunks out the exit (shoulder smashed).
Was broadside but from stand so entrance higher and behind onside, aimed to nuke the offside shoulder.

That deer ran up the hill, stopped for a second , then trotted off into the lower field and piled up at about 80 yards out. The initial loop, plus that...........125 yards. Of course the slug might have had something to do with it, old Activ.

But the offside shoulder was blasted.............125 yards.

I've never HP rifled a deer, only used .44 and .35 Rem. But buds with Encore and Savage HP cartridge handguns, and buds who use rifles out west...........to a man they all say HP rifles put stuff down faster. They don't run the heavier bullets for cartridge though.

I still know some Wis and NY guys that think a deer needs a 200gr bullet in an '06. That and a double lung might be why some of their deer went a ways (recovered, but not a boom flop).

Boom flop..............in non high V stuff I'd expect that to come from spine hits. Anything at that location should give such results.

I was impressed with the old slug I mentioned, because reg mid lung hits folded a couple of bucks on the spot. The deer were under 100 yards and under 170# dressed. Never tried that on a 200# er. They seem to be a different critter.

 

[Hookeye]

Shotgun slugs work, work well. They're just different.
If my state goes full on HP rifle I'll probably run the .35 Rem untrimmed.
My shot situations are under 200 yards.
I might even go lesser, try .256 Win from a TC Custom shop rifle.
But that'd be up close, antlerless.

I'm not so much a cartridge guy as platform dude.
I like cool guns.

Have had 3 auto '06, a couple of pumps, 7mm and .300 mag, 7mm O8 and over a half dozen .243's. Plus theres been a few other varmint rifles around.
Three lever guns, am no .30-30 fan. That old crappy .307 really probably soured me on all of them. It was a beautiful gun.

Oh yeah...........accuracy.

My 742 Carbine (minty older model)...........shot my first shot cold bore to 1" high at 100 yds. Every time..........let it cool, shoot...........1" high. No left to right issue. Wonderful.

Well maybe not. If you shot 5 shots the first from cold bore was 1" high, the next 4 were in a 1.5" group............not bad.

But they were 7 or 8" lower than the first. Yup, bbl heat up, gas block welded to underside. Barrel would warp.

Now there might be some validation for old timers running see through rings on these old 742's. Like Mini 14...........when the bbl warps if using iron sights, your sighting system moves with the warp.

But if you run a scope, it won't.

So a first shot w scope, and followup with irons might put shots in same general area. Of course the see through rings and crappy cheekplacement cmight induce enough error to be worse than if you just kept blasting through the scope. Dunno.

The true solution was to use scope and know the change and adjust for it.
7 or 8" at 100 yards is substantial IMHO. Enough I sold the pristine rig (now I knew why it was in such good shape).

Odd, I got two beater 742 regular models and they did not shift with bbl heat up.

I wouldn't mind a Model 6 (pimped 7600) carbine in '06............free float bbl, pump rifle doesn't bother me.

Had a Marlin in .44 mag...........eh, I like a Ruger auto in that cartridge better. Doesn't shoot as good as my Marlin did.........but a fingergroove Ruger like new is just too cool. I got one deer with it. I'd call that gun a 4" at 100 yards. My Marlin did 2".

Perfectly content to use the less accurate rig within its limits.

Because I have multiple rifles to choose from.

Use whatever makes it fun

Slug guns fall within that

Esp if you grew up in a shotgun state and had success. Good times. I thoroughly enjoyed going old school back in '06. Might do it again, never know.

 

[entropy]

My .30-06 742 Carbine shot so well on the first shot, I didn't need a second for the two deer I killed with it. I worked up a load of 43 gr. of IMR 3031 topped with 165 Partitions that shot a nice cloverleaf at 100 yds. I took the deer at 50 and 65 yds. with it.

Then I started hunting in southern MN, where it was shotguns only. I got a Hastings Cantilever barrel for my 870, which I still have some 30 years later. It still shoots Minute-of Aorta at 100 yards, and Minute-of Heart at 150, though on a different 870. It's my backup backup gun since WI went rifle statewide two years ago.

 

[bearcreek]

It's my backup backup gun since WI went rifle statewide two years ago.

I think this is where most people are at when it comes to slug guns for deer. The title of the thread was a bit extreme. "Reviled" is a rather strong way to put it. Shotguns work for deer but, given the choice, almost everyone would choose a rifle.

 

[Hookeye]

Yup. Rifle guy here (gave up shotguns some tie back)
But then I also gave up blackpowder (TC Haken Silver Elite- damn that was a pretty rifle) and compound bows (Mathews Switchback XT).

I used a rifle when my state first allowed it for deer season (Ruger .44 fingergroove). Popped a deer too.

Then I handgun hunted, nothing shootable with TC Super14 .35 Rem, so just used Colt Python the next two yrs (rifles legal). Popped one 8 pt.

Went and got a Super 16 TC and built into rifle (.35 Rem). Ran it the last few yrs (again, spot not the best, only shot it at one deer, got it too).

Many folks like variety to keep things fun. I'm kind of that way My TC is paid for, shoots great.........but the break open irks me a little. So I bought a Ruger #1 to rebarrel.

I do wonder, if this was rifle only state previously, and then they "allowed shotguns"............how many would buy a slug gun just to try something new.

Discussed slug guns with my bud, who runs a .300 Blackout pistol, before that a.357 Max break open and a .458 Socom ............what he thought about the old days. He's killed a lot of deer.

Said he had a blast and an "old school" hunt now and then was good for ya.

He still has one slug gun sittin' around as a loaner rig. Loaner. He's had other rifles..............still hangs onto that slug gun because he enjoys it, and it has worked well.

I think he and his deer hunting brother in law and I............would have a grand time on the old farm, if all 3 had slug guns.

Just a little trip back to the days of our youth. Might even go smoothbore.
I have an 870 and 1100 I could run, but I'd rather have a dedicated slug rig.

With rifles and X bows all the rage.........old school stuff is at bargain prices. Economy still sucks, Xmas coming up..............could score a nice rig even cheaper come January.

 

[Hookeye]

Deer season run a scope on the receiver, high comb stock.
After the 2 weeks yank the scope and you have a HD rig (if smoothbore).
Remchoke bbl could even make it a turkey rig.

Only tried fosters in my Wingmaster Remchoke deer rig way back. Slugs really fouled the choketube. I'd clean it every 10 shots. Was OK then.

 

[Aragon]

A person can buy a shotgun with a rifled barrel and scope/red dot for less than $400, and that will include a longer barrel for birds. The shotgun will be good out to 100 yards with the proper sabot slugs.

That said, $400 won't buy a good (good not cheap) rifle scope let alone a nice rifle.

I use a 30-06!

Not true. Both Ruger and Savage offer superb rifles at well under $400.00. Same with Nikon and others for scopes...

 

[witchhunter]

"We are a Nation of Riflemen"

I have nothing against shotguns for deer, where they are most useful. Growing up out west, you rarely see it though.

 

[red rick]

I hunt with dogs 90% of the time during deer season in this kind of cover . This is why I prefer buckshot , deer moving , thick cover , shots typically under 40 yards .

I took these pictures while muzzleloader hunting yesterday . First picture from a ground stand and the next 2 pictures from my treestand .

 

[d2wing]

Like some other posters here I live in Southern Minnesota but grew up in the North. I have shot dozens of deer with all sorts of guns. Mostly rifles but several with shotguns. In shotgun I prefer sabot loads in my rifle barreled red dot sighted 11-87, but I have Owed several others. I have had one bang flop with the shotgun, and several that required more shots and some that required long tracking after multiple hits either by me or others in my party, as party hunting is popular in the shotgun zone. A shot gun slug punches a nasty hole through the deer, but does not create a wide wound channel like a high speed, over 2500 fps rifle bullet regardless of caliber. A good hit at reasonable range with a shotgun will kill a deer in the right spot quickly. But shot placement is much harder and deer can run along ways before they bleed out from a clean wound from a shotgun or other slow bullet.
However high speed expanding rifle bullets create a much wider wound cavity resulting in much quicker and sure kills. This is from actual experience in 50 years or so of hunting shooting dozens of deer and being in hunting parties with many hunters and a variety of arms. Also ballistic charts only go to 125 yards for slugs for a reason. Slugs drop like a rock at that range. I was at a range a couple weeks ago and two guys with scoped bolt action rifled slug guns had trouble hitting hitting 8x8 targets from a bench at 100 yards and they are very good shots. In other words anyone that claims hits at much over 75 yards is lucky or as is more common, a very poor judge of distance. A lot of deer are shot with shotguns. They work at least as well as muskets or better. But a rifle is more effective at any range and way more beyond 75 yards. Just my two cents.

 

[RMc]

I hunt with dogs 90% of the time during deer season in this kind of cover . This is why I prefer buckshot , deer moving , thick cover , shots typically under 40 yards .

I took these pictures while muzzleloader hunting yesterday . First picture from a ground stand and the next 2 pictures from my treestand .

Buckshot catches the most intense ire on forums - mostly from folks that have no idea how effective such a load can be within its range!

 

[Hookeye]

My two 870 rifled bore shotguns, with scopes on receivers (D&T'd) and high comb stocks....with minor trigger polish.....
shot sub 2" groups at 100 yards.

If somebody has a rifled bore shotgun and can't keep shots on a 8x8 sheet............they have a gun/scope/ammo problem or incompatibility..........or they just can't shoot.

Hell my smoothbore 500's were solid rigs to 150.

But one must be consistent in form/grip and probably helps to have ammo tested...........I buy all from one lot #, and also test for cleaning interval and fouling requirement.

Did have a gun that couldn't keep shots on target at 50 yards. 3.5" chambered Mossberg 835. Tried a few 2 3/4 and 3" sabot loads.
It sucked. Finally after bore polish (rough as a cob) I got it to shoot better with reg 3" fosters.

Blasted my doe at 90, my buck at 165.

Both offhand. The buck moving. All shots on the money.

 

[Hookeye]

My hunting bud took his 870 (used to be mine) to rifle zone in Wis.
Inlaws laughed at him.
Then they went to the range.
Their jaws were on the ground......they had no idea a slug gun could shoot like that. Longtime deer hunters, decent rifles, some M37 deer sluggers too.

None ever saw that kind of perf from a slug gun.............until then.

I have no idea if they knew about limiting variables or testing.
My brother in law mixed slugs in his rifled 500. He only shot a half dozen deer............didn't like the cost of the HI Supremes, so went with cheaper BRI from any that were on sale.

To limit some variability he kept shots around 50 yards and less. They sucked for bloodtrail and deer would go a ways before expiring.

So what does Mr Cheapskate do? He stops punching heart/lungs and just shoots 'em in the head. It worked very well too.

Nasty. Also limited his shot selection. He was content with the carnage and letting deer past that max D go (or if they were moving). Simply a meat hunter.

 

[Hookeye]

I have been happy with Leupold VX1 and Redfield Revolution 2-7X.
Around $200.
My old 870 slug gun, my hunting bud has.........wears a Leupold compact 4X I got from Ballentines 20 yrs ago used (for $150, like new w box and papers).
I shoot both eyes open, so the 4x was OK for me, even on close movers.
But a 2X makes things even easier.
Shot my deer at 3 or 4X last Sat (was not at 7X).Used a rifle, but at 65 yards, if I had a slug gun he'd be just as dead.

 

[RMc]

You know, if you live and hunt in part of the country where MOST shots on deer take place at less than 40 yards, say much of the South East, even parts of Indiana or Ohio, and other heathen places, there is not one darned thing wrong with buck shot.

In fact a lot of folks have been restricted to buckshot in many places.

Would a rifle be more accurate? Mechanically Absolutely. In Joe Slob Hunter's hands it ain't necessarily so.

Will Buck shot fired in the thick woods still do serious property damage and cause sever injury to humans or live stock a mile away when Joe Slob Hunter misses and paid no attention to safety fans? Not likely.

Honestly as far as wounded animals go, I do not know that shotguns wound a higher percentage of deer than Arrows or rifle bullets.

-kBob

Funny how people think hunting with archery gear is a "wonderful challenge" yet using buckshot under the same circumstances is less than ethical.

Gee buckshot is a "lawful means of take" in Utah!

http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting-in...-regulations/942-r657-5--taking-big-game.html

 

[WestKentucky]

It's never good to fire anything without hearing protection, but my experience has been that the boom from a shotgun makes my ears ring less than a centerfire rifle report. That's just me and my perception of things.

With comparable accuracy, a good shooter with a handgun can match a regular shooters shotgun. The report is a whole separate issue. Crank up a .357 mag to power levels deemed sufficient for hunting, fire that out of a 6" revolver. Ouch. Big bore handguns are similar, much sharper than the dull thud of a scatter gun. Any handgun on the market though is going to fall short of the power levels shotguns provide. The shotgun gets a nod from me.

 

[JShirley]

Buckshot catches the most intense ire on forums - mostly from folks that have no idea how effective such a load can be within its range!

Or people who know exactly how effective buck can be. I stopped using buckshot after seeing how little effect it sometimes had at very close range. Similarly, I was on a hunt with mod Al Thompson when he decided to no longer use buckshot while hunting because of lackluster performance on a nice but not overly large hog.

 

[X-Rap]

I've patterned various buckshot loads at 50 yds and was far less than impressed, coyotes yes, deer or hogs, no way.
Of all the tools in the BG hunters tool box the shotgun is both the most and the least specialized.
It is very effective in the close quarters with a slug after dangerous game and in the proper configuration probably very popular.
At extended range it pales in comparison to centerfire rifles of 6mm or larger.
At 50yds the shotgun firing buckshot doesn't compare with a seasoned archer using a modern bow, with a slug that isn't true but where I've lived the archery season runs months rather than days or weeks like the shotgun season.
In regards to a handgun comparison, I'll take the advise of Elmer Keith and consider the conventional handgun a weapon of opportunity so if I lived in a place that allowed multiple kills on deer I'd walk the woods with one on my belt all the time and leave the shotgun at home or full of birdshot for wing shooting.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, I have multiple rifles capable of taking deer, a favorite .308, and live in Texas. Why should I use a shotgun on anything, but birds? It's not the law here, so....

 

[RMc]

Or people who know exactly how effective buck can be. I stopped using buckshot after seeing how little effect it sometimes had at very close range. Similarly, I was on a hunt with mod Al Thompson when he decided to no longer use buckshot while hunting because of lackluster performance on a nice but not overly large hog.

Reality, "buckshot" is no longer a generic commodity - if it ever was! Buckshot sizes are inclusive of pellets both above and below the conventional sizes. Choosing buckshot is a far more specialized endeavor than ever before, (the same is true of "slug" ammunition and delivery systems as well).

Indeed, how hunter tactics depend largely on pellet size and delivery system. For example, I know of hunters in the coastal South that use turkey tactics - head shots only with #4B, (.24" / 20 grains), in thick cover. Obviously these are not trophy hunters as the popular load is 54 pellet 3.5" magnum, #4B!

Conventional buckshot sizes such as 00B, admittedly are not the best for large hogs - head shots work best. I think you know answer in the buckshot world is with larger pellets - Dixie Tri-Ball comes to mind - hit a hog in the shoulder with that load and the running gear is gone. Type Dixie Tri-Ball into your search engine.

Slug options have changed and Buckshot options have changed.

Other options have changed also - just ask Glock 20 fans with their hunting sidearms that match power and ammo capacity with the 38WCF from that 1870's favorite - the Winchester 73.

Oh yes, those shotgun slug options work also...

 

[MCgunner]

Conventional buckshot sizes such as 00B, admittedly are not the best for large hogs. I think you know answer in the buckshot world is with larger pellets - Dixie Tri-Ball comes to mind - hit a hog in the shoulder with that load and the running gear is gone.

There's a public hunting WMA with hog hunting near where I used to live. It's buckshot only, but I inquired about that "tri ball" stuff and Texas Parks and Wildlife does not consider it buckshot. 000 is the biggest you can use there, so I never bothered with tri ball. I tried some crap marketed by some fly by night outfit they called "0000". It's .375" diameter. Only 8 pellets to a load and it doesn't load evenly in 12 gauge. I shot it from 40 yards on a pattern board and only 2 ball at most hit anywhere on a 30" pattern board from 40 yards with any choke I tried.

So, far as I'm concerned, 000 is the biggest buckshot available and it works best in 10 gauge.

not sure how you can have buckshot smaller than 4 bucks which is .22 caliber. T shot is the next step down at .20 caliber. That's what I shoot at geese from a 10 gauge in steel of course.

 

[RMc]

Definitions?

BUCKSHOT
Lead pellets ranging in size from .20” to .36” diameter normally loaded in shotshells.

http://saami.org/glossary/display.cfm?letter=B
Note: SAMMI is a voluntary organization and not all ammunition manufacturers are members.

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"Buckshot is simply lead shot formed to larger diameters. Sizes range in ascending order from size B to Tri-Ball."

That is according to shot manufacturer Nuclead Co. Inc. and Sharp Manufacturing
http://www.nuclead.com/leadshotapps.html

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Buckshot chart from BPI

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Buckshot-Loading-Manual-4th-ed/productinfo/00MBUCK/

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[RMc]

Limitations?

Reasonably clear?

(b) a shotgun, 20 gauge or larger, firing only 00 or larger buckshot or slug ammunition.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting-in...-regulations/942-r657-5--taking-big-game.html

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Clearly conflicting?

Delaware

Prohibited Method of Take
Use a shot larger than No. 2, except when hunting deer. Waterfowl hunters may use non-toxic shot up to size T.

Deer hunting: Shotguns
Shotgun no smaller than 20 gauge for deer hunting using rifle slug, pumpkin ball or buckshot and must be plugged to hold only 3 shells (in chamber and magazine combined). It is unlawful to carry buckshot, rifle slug or pumpkin ball except while hunting for deer, and conversely, it is also unlawful to carry shot smaller than buckshot while deer hunting.

http://www.eregulations.com/delaware/hunting/general-hunting-information/

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Buckshot Prohibited?
Buckshot Defined?

U.S. Army Corp of Engineers
Ft. Worth District


c. Buckshot (any shot size large than #2 shot) is prohibited anywhere on government property. Buckshot is prohibited due to increased public safety concerns.

Shotguns with rifled slugs are allowed when hunting deer and feral hogs except at those lakes which restrict deer and feral hog hunting to archery only.

http://www.swf.usace.army.mil/Portals/47/docs/About/Lakes and Recreations/HuntingGuide_2015-2016.pdf
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Interesting how the Corp of Engineers and Delaware define buckshot as "any shot size larger than #2 shot."

Perhaps if one called about using sabot slugs the answer could very well be "only rifled slugs are allowed."

Clearly the only thing clear in many hunting regulations is that few things are clear regarding buckshot and yes even slug ammunition.

So if the regulation is not clearly stated, an inquiry to the agency requesting clarification may be merited - preferably a written inquiry to the agency.

Like most hunters, if the regulation indicates "shotgun slug only," I take that to mean any commercial slug, (or handloaded equivalent), from a rifled or smoothbore shotgun is legit. My approach to buckshot is the same. It is the responsibility of the regulating agency to provide clear written limitations on the method of take.

 

[RMc]

"So if the regulation is not clearly stated, an inquiry to the agency requesting clarification may be merited - preferably a written inquiry to the agency."
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A good example would be requesting clarification regarding slug ammunition.

"Since the regulation says 'rifled slugs only' are sabot slugs and rifled barrels legal to hunt with?

The answer...?