Why are the cavalry length saa clones in 357 so hard to find?

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Why are single action army clone with the 7.5" barrel, the cavalry model, in 357 mag, so hard to find? I mean authentic clones, not like a Ruger Blackhawk, I mean with the minimal rear sight, and the firing pin on the hammer. I've found like 3.

You can find them in 45 colt, but I don't want another caliber to buy for.

Do you guys know any models? What am I missing here?
 
The popularity of the 4 3/4" barreled .357 Magnum Single Action revolver is due to the fact many use these in cowboy action matches where .38 Special cartridges are used. The .38 because of its mild recoil allows faxter recovery for following shorts. Further, the .38 Special ammunition is more of a bargain right now.

Bob Wright
 
And further, I've long though a Colt New Frontier or medium frame Ruger Three Screw Blackhawk in .357 Magnum with 7 1/2" barrel would be the ideal varmint revolver. Or in .32-20 as well.

Bob Wright
 
I believe Taylor firearms had a couple of long barrel "Cattleman" models in 357. I appreciate the preference for 357, for me, however 45 Colt is more flexible- as I can load it to cover a broader range of conditions. From plinking to deer hunting, plus less muzzle blast from the Colt.
 
I would imagine because the SAA clones are not generally made to withstand 357 Mag pressures. 45 Colt and 38 Special are popular at 14,000 kpsi and 17,500 kpsi respectively. 357 Mag is 35,000 kpsi.

Howdy

That is incorrect. The Colt Single Action Army was first chambered for 357 Magnum the same year the cartridge came out, 1935.

I hear questions like this all the time: "Do I have to only fire 38 specials in my 357 Magnum clone?"

Don't be confused about the SAA and it's Italian clones. The cylinder is large, and there is plenty of steel around the chambers to take the pressure generated by standard 357 Magnum ammunition. The cylinder of a Colt is roughly the same size as a N frame revolver cylinder, and they are chambered for 357 Magnum all the time. Don't forget, it is the cylinder, not the barrel or the frame that has to withstand the pressure generated when a cartridge fires. Shooters may not like the recoil of the 357 Mag in a Colt sized single action revolver, but the cylinder can take it.

I cannot tell you why there are not more Italian clones available with 7 1/2" barrels chambered for 357 Mag, but I can tell you that lightly loaded 38 Special ammunition is the most common cartridge used in Cowboy Action Shooting.
 
Howdy

That is incorrect. The Colt Single Action Army was first chambered for 357 Magnum the same year the cartridge came out, 1935.

I hear questions like this all the time: "Do I have to only fire 38 specials in my 357 Magnum clone?"

Don't be confused about the SAA and it's Italian clones. The cylinder is large, and there is plenty of steel around the chambers to take the pressure generated by standard 357 Magnum ammunition. The cylinder of a Colt is roughly the same size as a N frame revolver cylinder, and they are chambered for 357 Magnum all the time. Don't forget, it is the cylinder, not the barrel or the frame that has to withstand the pressure generated when a cartridge fires. Shooters may not like the recoil of the 357 Mag in a Colt sized single action revolver, but the cylinder can take it.

I cannot tell you why there are not more Italian clones available with 7 1/2" barrels chambered for 357 Mag, but I can tell you that lightly loaded 38 Special ammunition is the most common cartridge used in Cowboy Action Shooting.

I’m rather hoping you don’t intend to be so abrupt.

As you will note, I referred specifically to clones of the SAA. And then I found one. With the 7.5” barrel.
 
It seems to me that most buyers of such things are looking either for "A gun like John Wayne used" - which mostly will mean a .45 - or a gun which minimizes recoil for SASS use. The .357 is neither here nor there, so likely is pretty far down the sales lists.

I'm a big fan myself - but I, like most of us here, am probably not representative of the typical SAA buyer.
 
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some practical limits, .357 will push primers out much harder. That means better hardening of the firing pin area, or a bushing. Frame stretch is an issue with the heavy 700ft lb loads. Not insurmountable, but a at a cost. Blast: a tight cylinder gap costs more, and you talking about pistols that sell under $600 most of the time. Weight. That .36" hole does make a difference. My .357 weighs about 6oz more than my .45, both 5.5". Over 7" and your going to have issues with stability for everyone who isn't a professional internet shooter. Style: Most people going 7" are doing it for looks, and .357 doesn't make much sense there.

None of these are a dealbreaker, but they do push the .357 deeper into the niche market, and either raise costs, or reduce durability. Not enough people would buy one I would think to justify wide production. I know I love 7" SSA's, and .357, but I wouldn't buy one. I would buy one in 10mm/.40.
 
It could also be that many .357 Mag SA revolver buyers are looking for a handier packing pistol in that caliber. Since the longer 7.5” guns just aren’t as easily packed about, they didn’t sell many.

Nothing scientific, just a guess. :).

Stay safe.
 
Looks like Mjsdwash beat me to it regarding the packability issue of the .357 :thumbup:.

Stay safe
 
I’m rather hoping you don’t intend to be so abrupt.

As you will note, I referred specifically to clones of the SAA. And then I found one. With the 7.5” barrel.

Didn't think I was being abrupt, if I was I apologize.

Simply stating the facts. By 1935 Colt was confident the steel they were using was strong enough for the pressures of the 357 Magnum cartridge.

To quote Jerry Kuhnhausen in his Colt Single Action Revolvers, A Shop Manual, Volumes 1 & 2, "1st Generation 357 Magnum cylinders were made from fine grain, higher tensile strength ordnance gun quality steel. These cylinder blanks, identified by a 5 pointed star imprinted on the front, turn up on other caliber S.A.A.s made during, and, after 1935."

Most of the clones we are talking about here are made in Italy, and all firearms manufactured in Italy are proofed in government run proof houses to standards that are slightly stricter than American proof standards. So any Italian made SAA clone can be fired with SAAMI spec 357 Magnum ammunition.

some practical limits, .357 will push primers out much harder. That means better hardening of the firing pin area, or a bushing.

Colt has been pressing a hardened steel insert into the frame of their revolvers around the firing pin hole for as long as I am aware of.

This is the bushing pressed into the frame of a 2nd Gen Colt that was made in 1968. I will have to check my 1st Gens later to see if they also have such a bushing.

pnIMvYBrj.jpg




The last time I bought a clone was about 20 years ago. I bought it used, an Uberti Cattleman. It was probably only a few years old at the time. It did not have a hardened bushing pressed into the frame the way a Colt does. Yes, this did cause a problem, but not from primers being slammed back hard, the problem was the repeated slamming of the firing pin through the hole in the frame raised a burr which interfered with the cylinder being able to turn freely when loaded. No idea if current Ubertis have a bushing pressed into the frame or not.




It seems to me that most buyers of such things are either looking either for "A gun like John Wayne used"

I can tell you lots of newbie SASS shooters just have to have a 45. Lots. Until their first match when they find out how much a 45 recoils with standard ammunition. Many of them wind up selling off their 45s and replacing them with 357 Mag revolvers and shooting mouse fart 38 Special reloads for light recoil and fast follow up shots.



Personally I like 45s. I like 7 1/2" barrels and 4 3/4" barrels. To me a 5 1/2" barrel on a SAA or clone just looks boring, even though it was always the best selling barrel length with Colts. Of course I'm not trying to conceal those revolvers with 7 1/2" barrels. And I only shoot them with cartridges loaded with Black Powder, no mouse fart loads at my house.

pn6KOclMj.jpg

plDFhbrKj.jpg
 
I’m currently in the market for a saa clone in 357 but with the 4 3/4” barrel and holding it side by side with the 45 there was a notable difference in weight. I think the. 7.5” may be kinda front heavy but have yet to handle one
 
It seems to me that most buyers of such things are looking either for "A gun like John Wayne used"

P.S. Sorry I did not mention this earlier, but the Colt that John Wayne used in most of his movies was his own chambered for 38-40, not 45 colt.

But yes, 45 Colt is the most common traditional chambering for the Single Action Army. I don't have my references handy, but there were more SAAs chambered for 45 Colt than any other cartridge. If memory serves, 44-40 was the next most common, followed by 38-40.
 
Yep, it has the '60 Army grip for "big mitted" fellers! I set up a pair of El Malo's (standard grip) for a local young lady for cowboy shooting. Nice revolvers !!

As to your explanation of reason, I had an "El Patron Comp" in .45C ( 14000 psi max) and added a .45acp (21,000 psi) which made it an excellent "convertible" !!! Foundations are one thing, pressure vessels are another!! Thanks for your "level headed" explanations . . .

Mike
 
Uberti makes the el patron in .357 magnum. Finding one may be difficult right now. The 2020 manufactured gun I owned did not have the firing pin bushing like the Colt does. The frame heat treat on my gun was poor.

You are correct, Uberti doesn't put a firing pin bushing in any of their SAA copies. I was merely pointing out that you can add a 45acp cyl to make it a convertible. My El Patron was a very fine revolver and in fact is the new owners favorite!!

As far as your "heat treat" being poor, what happened . . . did the frame bend? Do you mean the finish (it's chemical)?

Mike
 
To me a 5 1/2" barrel on a SAA or clone just looks boring, even though it was always the best selling barrel length with Colts.

And, it was GI, the "Artillery Model" .45 conversions were done by Colt starting 1895 to supplement the low powered .38 double actions in the Philippines and Cuba.

Singer Mel Torme was a gun collector. He had a prototype "Single Action Navy" .38 LC with 6 1/2" barrel.

When I was active in CAS, I knew two guys who shot .357 Colts. One had 7 1/2" which I thought awful heavy. The other used 4 3/4". He learned of some feature of the SA that he considered so unsafe, even with SASS rules on loading, that he quit the game.
 
And, it was GI, the "Artillery Model" .45 conversions were done by Colt starting 1895 to supplement the low powered .38 double actions in the Philippines and Cuba.

Singer Mel Torme was a gun collector. He had a prototype "Single Action Navy" .38 LC with 6 1/2" barrel.

When I was active in CAS, I knew two guys who shot .357 Colts. One had 7 1/2" which I thought awful heavy. The other used 4 3/4". He learned of some feature of the SA that he considered so unsafe, even with SASS rules on loading, that he quit the game.

Didn’t Torme also own the famous “Sears” Colt SAA with the Uber-Elaborate engraving? Good taste.
 
Maybe shooters who want a very long barrel, like 7.5" are probably hunters?

Or maybe they shoot long-range targets they need to knock down?

Either way, they probably want a 44 or 45.
 
Mel Torme also bought the .45 Colt built by Colt for Sears, Roebuck Co. One of a kind and later sold it. Read this in Handloader Journal June 2021 by Brian Pearce.
Opps! Just noticed it was already posted.
 
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