Why are there no lead free bullets that expand well at 1600-1800 FPS?

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Several manufacturers claim their lead free bullets expand at 1600-1800 FPS, but we know better. With lead free becoming more popular, why haven't we seen any lead free bullets that behave like cup and core bullets (e.g. reliable expansion at lower velocities)? My guess is that it's really hard to find a lead free alloy that's softer than pure copper (which is still pretty hard compared to lead). The alternative is probably a different copper architecture (bullet design) that has less material where the copper needs to yield and bend to expand, but that may increase lead free bullet costs (which are already relatively pricey). I'm sure this is something that Barnes and others have looked at considering that most rifles don't hold 2400 fps at 300 yards.
 
I believe the main reason for the TTSX tipped bullet is that the polymer tip will help initiate expansion at lower velocity. Personally after hunting with barnes bullets for the past 5 years I have no idea why someone would want an all copper bullet except if they live in California. You can buy a really really nice bonded bullet for the cost of the barnes. I am shooting the rest of mine up and that will be the end of that experiment.
 
“I have no idea why someone would want an all copperbullet except if they live in California.”

“Several manufacturers claim their lead free bullets expand at 1600-1800 FPS, but we know better.”

This.

I know from an unfortunate experience (lost deer on a solid broadside hit) that the Barnes TTSX bullet does not expand at lower velocities as advertised.
 
Put a tungsten core in one and you’ll see expansion. The problem is the weight.

Or ther could make the cavity larger. The copper is simply too thick to expand at low velocity.
 
depending on caliber and ranges, the hornady monoflex is designed for low velocity cartridges like 30-30 win. I have no experience with it, however.
 
someguy2800 said:
Personally after hunting with barnes bullets for the past 5 years I have no idea why someone would want an all copper bullet except if they live in California. You can buy a really really nice bonded bullet for the cost of the barnes.
Click to expand...

I hesitate to state my reasons because it often causes the conversation to devolve. Some people see any statement against lead bullets as an attack on firearms ownership, or, as an attack on their choice to use lead bullets. That being said, here's my thinking:

1) I have young kids (three aged five and under) that eat what I shoot. An adult can eat trace amounts of lead without being significantly affected because their brain is developed, but trace lead can depress a kid's IQ.

2) There have been studies showing that family members of hunters have elevated blood-lead levels. If you hit bone or if you hunt small game with lead shot you will not get all the lead out of the meat, no matter how careful you are during processing. There are x-rays out there (originally captured by the Minnesota DNR if memory serves) that show how far and wide lead travels when you hit a bone on big game, and you're not going to get every piece of lead.

For those reasons I hunt exclusively with lead free bullets/shot and handle all of my own processing. The disadvantage is that I have to use something relatively fast (e.g. 243, 270, or 130 grainers in a 308) to get the copper bullets to expand properly, when I'd prefer to hunt with something a little slower (e.g. 7.62x39 or 358 win).
 
z7 said:
depending on caliber and ranges, the hornady monoflex is designed for low velocity cartridges like 30-30 win. I have no experience with it, however.
Click to expand...

I have shot that bullet from my 7.62x39, but so far only at paper. It was not as accurate nor does it carry as much energy to 200 yards as its 160-grain FTX (lead core) counterpart, so I shot the rest up at the range and - as was said before - that was the end of that experiment.
 
Corn-picker, I think you make some very valid points and we should all be striving to reduce the amount of lead we come in contact with.

NOW, having said that, I was hand scraping lead-based paint off of old homes (sometimes off asbestos shingles), barefoot, when I was a kid. My mom and brothers and sisters moved into foreclosed and abandoned homes and fixed them up my entire childhood. We drank water through old pipes and I even played with molten lead as a kid, making fishing weights and jig heads. And somehow I still managed to graduate college with a 3.4 gpa (probably would have been higher if I didn't have to work so much after class). After college, Uncle Sam gave me tens of thousands of rounds of lead-based ammo to train with and I shot it all, indoors and out, and asked for more when the mags ran dry.

My point is this... despite the fact that we know lead is potentially harmful, the FACT that many of us were exposed to much, much higher levels of lead as kids, and turned out just fine (with arguably a lot more common sense than kids today) is always ignored when the subject of lead exposure comes up.

My grandfather was still farming and ranching well into his 90's and probably would have lived longer if his wife hadn't passed before he did. We think he died of a broken heart, not from lead poisoning, DDT exposure, asbestos or anything else - although he was exposed to all of those things. He also ate eggs and a lot of bacon every single morning, and drank coffee all day long. I know many here can share similar stories.

Sorry for the long rant but I'll be happy to use bullets without lead in them as soon as they perform better and cost the same or less. Otherwise, I'm not interested.
 
[QUOTE="Corn-Picker, post: 10651883, member: 213338] That being said, here's my thinking:

1) I have young kids (three aged five and under) that eat what I shoot. An adult can eat trace amounts of lead without being significantly affected because their brain is developed, but trace lead can depress a kid's IQ.
.[/QUOTE]

excellent reasoning. I have very specific rules about my reloading area for my kids and I use water/ss pins to wash all brass just for this. after I have things cleaned properly, I will sometimes let my kids help me sort clean brass or pull the handle on the press, but scrubbing hands with soap and water is mandatory. I don't get to hunt enough, and my kids refuse to eat real food anyway, for lead shot/bullets to be a food concern.
 
I have relatives that smoked till they were 90. I also have ones that were dead from it at 40. All the barnes bullets I launched into deer killed them as dead as anything else, it just on average took a whole lot longer. I'm not going to question your not wanting lead around, its a perfectly valid concern.
 
Well the Minnesota state info mentioned earlier is worth a look for any hunter. If you use a lead bullet and eat your game you are consuming lead.

As to whether that has any deleterious effects to the persons health is another matter and has many variables.

If other real concern, and admitted fodder for the anti movement, are the lead fragments left behind in the carcass. Again, lead is present to what effect it has is the debate.

So I can't fault or even question a guy who wants to use lead free bullets. It will eventually become law in many areas anyway.
 
There are several reasons.

For one thing the larger calibers do expand quite well at slower speeds. It is the 30 caliber and smaller that really need 2000-2200 fps for adequate expansion. When they claim 1800 fps they are accurate with calibers above 30. The information isn't exactly incorrect, just misleading.

Another thing to remember, even most lead bullets don't expand well below 1800 fps, it is only the round nose thin jacketed bullets designed for 30-30 speeds that expand down to 1600 fps. So in reality the difference isn't that great, only about 200 fps.

Needing more speed isn't the handicap that a lot of folks think. I can shoot 180 gr lead bullets in my 308 @ 2600 fps. Or I can shoot 130 gr copper bullets in my 308 @ 3150 fps. The lighter bullet needs more speed to expand, but by dropping down to a lighter bullet I've gained 550 fps.

And you don't need the weight with copper. A 130 gr copper bullet is about the same overall length as a 180 gr lead bullet. And since copper retains 100% of its weight at impact it penetrates about the same as a 180gr lead bullet that loses 20%-50% of its weight at impact. The 130 gr bullet will at least match the heavier bullet in penetration. As long as impact speeds are above 2000 fps It'll give good expansion. The 180 lead bullet will drop below 1800 fps at about 500 yards. The 130 gr copper bullet will drop below 2000 fps at about 400 yards. The lead bullet has an advantage at longer ranges. But few people are shooting beyond 400 yards anyway.

Many people are finding copper works better than lead and they are quite popular even where not required. You just have to understand how they work and use them appropriately.

But I'd not buy them over health concerns. Ingesting lead just isn't on my radar. If I were hunting game with a rifle traditionally considered borderline for the game I'd choose copper over lead every time. A copper bullet out of a 243 at close to moderate ranges will work very well on elk or bear size game. If you insist on 500+ yard shots then copper isn't a good choice.
 
Corn-Picker said:
Several manufacturers claim their lead free bullets expand at 1600-1800 FPS, but we know better. With lead free becoming more popular, why haven't we seen any lead free bullets that behave like cup and core bullets (e.g. reliable expansion at lower velocities)? .
Click to expand...


My take is that producing and developing lead free bullets requires three things, at least:

1.The old lead/copper bullet producing technology and tooling is paid for, easy to achieve, and reaps good profits.
2. Hunters and shooters have given lead free bullets a lukewarm reception. Specialty market products are expensive to produce. Remember, a lot of current bullet advances came from competition.
3. The technology of lead free bullets is young, nobody has thrown a lot of research and development money behind it. The market is cautious and nobody is, as yet putting all their eggs in the lead free basket.
 
I really like the idea of an all copper bullet and I shot about 10 deer with them in my 25-06, they just were not as effective as a the various cup and core bullets I've used. The price is really high on them but I would not see that as a problem if they actually performed like they claim. Anybody have luck with the hornady GMX bullets?
 
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