Why are there not more modern SAO autos?

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

seat handel bars ,frame, 2 wheels with tires, pedals, and chain to rear wheel Looks pretty close to me
Our younger shooters and police have been dumbed down to believe plastic is good, hicap mags good, and DA auto is good . We can only hope they wise up
______

Wow. That's a pretty ignorant statement.

Tell a cop who's required to carry 17 things on his belt that he should want a heavier gun because you think it's better. Tell a cop who's by himself and may be facing 5+ gangbangers that he should want 8 round mags because you think it's better.

To me, and to most law enforcement, a firearm is a tool. It doesn't have to be pretty, it doesn't have to have an history, and it doesn't have to have any sentimental value. It needs to put firepower downrange at the enemy every time it's called to. I trust the Glock design more than the 1911. In addition, they are lighter on the belt, carry more rounds, can take magazines of varying sizes, mags can be swapped between a full size Glock and a BUG Glock, and the amount of holster and accessory options for the Glock is tremendous.

Most devotion to the 1911 I think is emotional/sentimental. I understand all of that history and the elegance a top of the line 1911 can have. And I also understand that a police officer or someone looking for the most reliable self defense tool they can find isn't going to care about that stuff in the least. I don't carry art, I carry tools.

 

[John Wayne]

None of which really change the basic design. Bikes in 1900 had brake levers, clip-in pedals, pneumatic tires (pneumatic tires were invented by Dunlop specifically for bicycles.) Multi-speed bikes were made well before 1900.

The bush-roller chain and the ball-bearing were also invented specifically for bicycles.

I guess it depends on your definition of the "basic design." By that token, there were scoped rifles in the civil war. Submarines were cigar-shaped, made of metal and propeller-driven, and used explosives to sink enemy ships. Magazine-fed semiautomatic pistols were around at the turn of the century too. You can argue any of these points all day, but there have been numerous improvements to all of the aforementioned designs over the last century.

 

[atomd]

Most devotion to the 1911 I think is emotional/sentimental.

Yeah, it has nothing to do with it being one of the most proven reliable, accurate, customizable, competition dominating, slim pistols with one of the best triggers that you can buy an infinite amount of holsters and accessories for that comes in a dozen or more chamberings...Other than that, they are crap.

Not all of us have to carry around 15lbs of equipment all day. Different tools for different jobs.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I guess it depends on your definition of the "basic design." By that token, there were scoped rifles in the civil war.

Muzzle loading, percussion rifles. Show me a development in bicycles since 1900 that is as fundmanal as the metallic cartridge was to firearms.

Submarines were cigar-shaped, made of metal and propeller-driven, and used explosives to sink enemy ships.

True submarines, vessels which could descend and surface at will, did not exist in the Civil War. The Aligator and Hunley were submersibles, not submarines. The true submarine was developed by John Holland in the 1890s.

Show me a development in bicycles since 1900 that is as fundmanal as the diesel motor, the electric motor, and the self-propelled and gyro-stablised torpedo was to submarines.

 

[benzy2]

I think the "military/leo contract" issue is blown out of proportion. Sure many of the big name polymer pistols have been in the government contract scene but lets look at manufacturers outside of Glock, Springfield, S&W, and SIG. Look at say Walther, Kel tec, Taurus, Bersa, Ruger, Kahr, Magnum Research, Browning, CZ, etc. Maybe a model or two from any one of these brands had hopes of becoming a handgun purchased by the government but for the most part they aren't based on some large scale contract to keep them going. I would like to know the numbers for those models that are being issued how many are sold to the government compared to their civilian numbers.

 

[ckone]

I've been wondering this for a long time too...

Once you've experienced the magic of a crisp SAO trigger all others are wanting.
First company that makes a mid-priced polymer SAO gun that keeps the magical crisp trigger and still provides all the other advantages is going to have a winner IMO... and a lot of shooters like other calibers than just .45 too.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

There are polymer SAO handguns around -- but almost all of them are basically variations on the M1911.

 

[Girodin]

I swear some people on here just live to be argumentative. Does anyone think these two things really look that similar or that nothing has been done to improve the basic design as the poster who originally made the analogy asserted?

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Yeah, it has nothing to do with it being one of the most proven reliable, accurate, customizable, competition dominating, slim pistols with one of the best triggers that you can buy an infinite amount of holsters and accessories for that comes in a dozen or more chamberings...Other than that, they are crap.

And none of the addresses the point I was responding to. The statement was made that "you shooters and police have been dumbed down to thinking that high capacity polymer guns are good". I have shows that to be an ignorant statement. The qualities you listed in the 1911 do nothing to address the need for lightweight, high capacity, rugged semi autos. Cops don't shoot competitions. Cops don't modify their triggers so they can be dead accurate shooting from a benchrest. Cops need a rugged, lightweight, simply operated, simply serviced, high capacity tool to use during their duty. The 1911 generally does not fit this bill. The 1911 may have been the combat pistol to have for decades. It just isn't anymore.

 

[ckone]

The qualities you listed in the 1911 do nothing to address the need for lightweight, high capacity, rugged semi autos. Cops don't shoot competitions. Cops don't modify their triggers so they can be dead accurate shooting from a benchrest. Cops need a rugged, lightweight, simply operated, simply serviced, high capacity tool to use during their duty. The 1911 generally does not fit this bill. The 1911 may have been the combat pistol to have for decades. It just isn't anymore.

You'll never guess what it is hands down the preferred choice of most LE SWAT team members? 1911.
Why? TRIGGER. That's why.

Good LEO's seem to have no problem maintaining their weapon and keeping it in a reliable state. I think if the choice of sidearm was left up to the individual officer you'd be pretty surprised how many "heavy, unreliable, competition guns" would show up for duty.

 

[Floppy_D]

You'll never guess what it is hands down the preferred choice of most LE SWAT team members? 1911.

Cite?

 

[FatGeek]

I have met officers off duty that were carrying 1911's, they switched to the 1911 as soon as they were off the clock, but that only speaks to the few I have met, which can be counted on one hand. A friend who served in Iraq prefers Glock.

About SWAT teams favoring the 1911:

LAPD SWAT: (Kimber as of 2002)
http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/st_0212_lapd/
- Beginning and continuing as a volunteer entity within the LAPD, the SWAT team was initially made up of officers who furnished much of their own equipment, including their own firearms. Not satisfied with the performance or capacity of the .38 Special revolvers that were standard issue, SWAT requested and was ultimately allowed to carry Model 1911 .45 ACP semiautomatic pistols. Renowned for its great handling and excellent reliability, the Model 1911 is equally well known for the .45 ACP cartridge it fires.

FBI SWAT: (Springfield)
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_144_24/ai_57886947/
The FBI went after the best pistol for its SWAT-trained agents. The result was a highly customized 1911A1 from spring field Armory's Custom Shop.

Riverside, California: (Smith & Wesson)
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/other/RiversideSEB.pdf
...Smith & Wesson Corp...has secured an order to supply Smith & Wesson Model SW1911 pistols with tactical rails to all members of the Special Enforcement Bureau (SWAT Team) of the Riverside County, California Sheriff’s Department.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Yes. And SWAT teams don't generally carry their tactical gear on 14 hour shifts multiple times a week, they also have a primary weapon that is a rifle or SMG which negates the poor mag capacity of the 1911, and they don't have to rely on their pistol as their primary weapon when things go from "ticket writing" to "shots fired" in a second. For cops who have to wear duty belts day after day, which weigh plenty without a metal frame pistol, and usually don't have their patrol rifle on hand, a lightweight hi capacity tool is simply a better choice. Who knows, I might pick a 1991 too if 90% of my weapon usage in the field was coming from an M4 or MP5. But it's not. My patrol rifle doesn't come with me on traffic stops. My patrol rifle doesn't come with me into domestic disputes. My patrol rifle isn't slung on my back when searching crack heads. And my patrol rifle doesn't come with me when jumping fences and running through backyards. I have my Glock, and I'll take the 46 rounds that come with it. And you can keep the extra weight of that metal frame too. I've got enough to carry around all night as it is.

 

[tipoc]

Why are there not more modern SAO autos?

Well I think that there are. The following companies offer sa semi autos in other than 1911 or BHP format in defensive calibers:

Smith and Wesson
CZ
EAA Witness/Tanfoglio
Norinco
Sig
H&K (either did or still does)
Beretta has but I think no longer.

This is off the top of my head If I spent about 10 minutes I could find some more.

Since the introduction of the Walther P38 it was all over but the shouting for sa autos as military or police sidearms. The U.S. military wanted to switch from the 1911 to a P38/BHP mash-up 9mm sidearm in 1948. They wanted a sa/da action, lighter weight, higher capacity, 9mm, decocker equipped sidearm. They lacked the funds to do so in '48. They finally did it post Viet Nam with the M9.

In the U.S. when law enforcement finally left wheelguns behind they bypassed the sa format for guns with da/sa capability, decockers, etc. S&W first, second and third gen guns, the Beretta, etc. On price point Glocks took the lead for a bit but have been losing it to others of late.

Military and law enforcement contracts still drive gun features largely.

Another thing to observe is the extent that the features and the ergonomics of the 1911 and BHP have influenced handgun development. To compete with the 1911 the triggers on da/sa guns have improved greatly over the last 30 years. The grip angle of the 1911 is greatly copied, etc.

tipoc

 

[Cosmoline]

To answer the OP, it's because the 1911 is a niche relic with a O/C cult following. The SAO concept has been out of date since the 1930's, and more importantly any effort to update the design will meet with revolt from the 1911 fans.

 

[1SOW]

In addition to the military and law enforcement, the odd thing to me is that much of the competition world (USPSA/IPSC) won't let you shoot SINGLE ACTION IN A "Production Class" 9mm.

The 9mm/40 cal CZ 75B SA is a best-kept-secret. It's a good gun oob. It can be really good with a little work, but you can't compete with it in Production class.

 

[Mike OTDP]

If nothing else, try a Pardini GT45.

 

[FatGeek]

Yes. And SWAT teams don't generally carry their tactical gear on 14 hour shifts multiple times a week...I have my Glock, and I'll take the 46 rounds that come with it. And you can keep the extra weight of that metal frame too. I've got enough to carry around all night as it is.

I wasn't aware of that angle. Thank you for clarifying. 15+1 & 30 round spare mag is difficult to argue with.

 

[tipoc]

From Cosmoline:

To answer the OP, it's because the 1911 is a niche relic with a O/C cult following.

What's O/C? What does it mean?

tipoc

 

[milosz]

I don't see it mentioned that Glocks, M&Ps and XDs essentially are SAOs. Striker-fired Double-Action/Safe-Action blah blah blah - you're talking ~5.5-6# trigger pull box stock. It's long (somewhat), but much closer to SAO than it is to revolver-style DAO, and it's nothing like DA/SA.

If you want hi-capacity safetied SAO, buy a Hi-Power or CZ.
If you're fine with 10 rounds, buy a 1911.
If you want hi-cap and don't care about a frame safety, get an XD, M&P or Glock.
If you want hi-cap and a frame safety and feel a bit generous about the definition of SAO, get an M&P.

 

[HisSoldier]

1911's are popular with some civilian shooters in the US and few other places but are not favored by most military or police units or policy makers.

Nope, just the elite who know how to use a gun and want the best.

 

[John Wayne]

Ok, all the 1911 fans seem to be missing the point in my original post...

The 1911 platform has its advantages. It is also a hundred year old design, and even supporters don't consider the original GI configuration ideal. It's stupid to think the design can't be improved upon; people said the same of the Colt SAA, yet modern revolvers have come a long way.

There is no reason that the good features of the 1911 can't be carried over to a simpler platform. Many have even tried, but are still hindered because they are still trying to make it look like a 1911 or accept standard 1911 parts.

Other versions, like the CZs and SIGs mentioned, are SAO versions of DA/SA pistols, and probably limited to some extend because of that.

Look at the HKP7--single action trigger, unique design, developed a cult following of sorts, but didn't succeed for other reasons (low capacity compared to wide grip, etc.).

 

[legion3]

Ok, all the 1911 fans seem to be missing the point in my original post...

Yep they sure are.


“Hokey religions and ancient 1911's are no substitute for a good Glock at your side kid”

"Don't be too proud of this 1911 you've had to upgrade every part. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Glock.”

and not to be one sided

"Your father's 1911. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as a Glock; an elegant weapon for a more civilized age. For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times... before the Polymer Empire."

 

[JohnBT]

"Other versions, like the CZs and SIGs mentioned, are SAO versions of DA/SA pistols, and probably limited to some extend because of that."

I've only had my SIG X-5 Tactical for a couple of weeks, but I don't see any limitations. Okay, the factory mags are only 15 rounds and not 19 like the X-5 target guns, but the SIG 20-rounders are available. And the trigger isn't adjustable from 2 to 4# like the L1 variant, but it's a glass-rod perfect 4.5#.


"I don't see it mentioned that Glocks, M&Ps and XDs essentially are SAOs."

If you insist, but they have really, really bad SA triggers. Really bad when compared to the good stuff. Heck, my 1972 Single Six came with a clean 2.0 pound trigger.

I think I'm going to have to buy an X-5 L1 or an X-6 9mm just to get the adjustable trigger so I can play with the pull weight, length of pull and overtravel. No, I want an X-6 .45. I can hear my checking account screaming. I got the Visa bill for the Tactical yesterday (I didn't have a checkbook with me; I wasn't planning on buying a gun that day.)

These newfangled guns are cutting into my quality SA plinking time with the Pythons.

As far as reinventing the slim, SA, .45 or 9mm, single-stack handgun, why bother. The 1911 is already available is a wide variety of configurations. I even like shooting my Colt WWI Repro. I put Spegel stocks on it, it's a shooter, not a safe queen. Good trigger and great accuracy.

John

 

[tipoc]

The 1911 platform has its advantages. It is also a hundred year old design, and even supporters don't consider the original GI configuration ideal. It's stupid to think the design can't be improved upon

There have been many "improvements" made to the 1911 over the decades. Some useful some less than that. No gun has been as versatile a design when it comes to adapability and change. Few guns come in as many variants. This latter has allowed it to be as widely distributed as it has been. The argument that the 1911 is little changed is a weak one.

There are several companies that continue to make clones of G.I. 1911s and 1911A1s. This is because these sell.

Price point on 1911s range from the 400-500 range to several thousand for custom guns.

1911's are produced in several lengths and frame sizes from the Colt Defender to 6" longslide guns for range and hunting purposes.

1911s are made for target work (2" groups at 50 yards) and basic self defense work.

They come in a wide variety of calibers. Para-Ord, Wilson and others make wide body hi-cap variants. Alloy and polymer frame versions are available.

The idea that the 1911 has not changed is wrong. It is hard to make a simpler more versatile gun.

tipoc