Why brick and morter are dying

[TruthTellers]

Yeah, one of the nice things about a lgs is that you don't have to pay for the hazmat fees associated with primers, powders, caps. That is one thing I always buy from an LGS. In fact, a person could just go into business selling reloading supplies and it would be easier than going through the extreme difficulty of getting an FFL.

 

[Lord Teapot]

The problem is compounded by the fact (or at least long-held claim) that dealers make most of their money on accessories, ammo, clothes, cases, scopes, and other incidentals, not really on the guns they sell, which only account for a small portion of their income.

So when the only thing you HAVE to go into the store for is the lesser part of their revenue, and they can't possibly, POSSIBLY compete with the enormous inventory of gun accessories, ammo, clothes, cases, scopes, and other incidentals available online at the click of a button, it's a tough business.

One might say that customer service, assistance with choices and options, and the depth of knowledge available at your local gun shop is what REALLY keeps folks coming in the door and dropping their money. But...well, the other great truism about gun shops is in regards to the "legendary" helpfulness and customer service the industry is plagued by.

A good shop is worth a lot.

the customer service aspect is dying as well. they don't pay the wages to attract people with knowledge anymore. for $10 an hour you're not getting someone who knows what he's talking about, you're getting the same thing you're getting at wal-mart or mcdonalds. maybe the owner knows his stuff, but not the employees, not in my experience.

 

[Sam1911]

the customer service aspect is dying as well.

You probably missed my sarcasm. The "customer service" aspect was hardly a brilliant point of light the gun shops of the country could point to, on the whole, at the best of times.

they don't pay the wages to attract people with knowledge anymore. for $10 an hour you're not getting someone who knows what he's talking about, you're getting the same thing you're getting at wal-mart or mcdonalds. maybe the owner knows his stuff, but not the employees, not in my experience.

Retail isn't a high-paying job in almost any area of sales. There was a point, I think, in business history where being a salesman was a rung on the company ladder, a job requiring dedicated prior service to acquire, and high-quality service in that job being a major factor in further advancement. At least, that's the theory.

But, like those doctor house calls and malt shops, those days are long past. Now sales is entry-level stuff and as dead-ended as a job could be.

Gun shops, like other "hobby" type stores, may in fact have on-average BETTER staffing, simply because a large number of gunny types at least believe they'd like to have a part-time job in a dealer's place where they could spend their free afternoons and evenings surrounded by guns and hanging out with like-minded folks. The low wages are less of a hindrance for the second-job types who are working for ammo money and for that employee discount. I don't think clothing or housewares retailers are very likely to have that kind of alternative draw for knowledgeable sales staff.

But still, the quality of advice and assistance provided by gun store staff is an area that generously could be said to "need improvement."

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

Warp: You are technically correct that there is not the ability to register ALL guns, but when you hear how they trace a particular gun used in a crime to the store in which it was last sold you have de-facto registration of SOME guns. But, since you seem to be a purist who enjoys playing a game of gotcha you will probably not be willing to admit that the government can probably track over half of all the guns sold. If you bought a gun that you later sold face to face from a legitimate retailer and the ATF comes knocking at your door at some future date because that gun was used in commission of a crime what are you going to tell them? I did it or you have no proof of ownership so go away? Better keep that tin foil in your back pocket for just such an emergency....

 

[Warp]

There is no registration of firearms and buying a gun at an FFL does not register it to you.

Feel free to start linking cases of the ATF coming to people's door and arresting them or charging or convicting them of a crime because a gun they picked up at an FFL at some point int he past was found at some random crime scene. I'll wait.

...and even that still wouldn't be registration lol

 

[TruthTellers]

the customer service aspect is dying as well. they don't pay the wages to attract people with knowledge anymore. for $10 an hour you're not getting someone who knows what he's talking about, you're getting the same thing you're getting at wal-mart or mcdonalds. maybe the owner knows his stuff, but not the employees, not in my experience.

Of all the lgs and big box places, I've rarely walked away from the person manning the counter believing I knew more than he/she. One lgs was run by a husband and wife, the husband was only there on weekends, leaving his less than knowledgeable wife to man the store. She was very nice, but not someone to ask about much beyond what she had and could get special ordered.

Another time was when I was at a Dick's. The guy was in his 20's and didn't know much about anything at all, nor did he seem to care either. He's the typical $10/hr wage worker who is just there for a job and nothing more.

The lgs in my town is awesome with their new gun prices and being so knowledgeable. Anytime I stop by and see if they have a certain ammo or used gun, they usually don't, but when I'm there for the 5 mins, I always walk away having had a great chat about any current events in the industry as a whole or debating the staying power of certain cartridges.

 

[Bobson]

Why brick and mortar are dying

Face to face interaction is shifting to becoming an archaic way of the past. You can buy anything online, do it from the comfort of your own home, quicker, and almost always for less money. Don't have to get dressed, get the kids in the car, spend an hour dealing with morons and traffic on the roads, go stand in line at the store, argue with stupid salespeople who would be better suited to jobs in mining, etc, etc.

Not saying any of that is an improvement over what people have experienced in the past, but it's reality.

In Asia, even brick and mortar grocery stores are becoming a thing of the past. Gonna come a time when stores of any type at all will be signs of times long gone, and it probably won't be as far in the future as we'd like to think.

 

[boatdoc173]

There are something along the lines of 70,000 FFLs in this country.

Most are home based and their margins are 10% at best - not enough to cover an hour of labor, transfers, depreciation of stock, etc.

Brick and mortar stores aren't much better. They may have higher inventory, but play by the same rules and have higher expenses.

Neither can compete on accessories with the big box stores or Amazon where they sell $1 over wholesale.

agreed

I mix and match for my own purposes. My LGS is very good to me. I have bought most of my collection from them . They usually meet the internet gunstor e prices(or are close enough--I consider taxes paid vs shipping and transfer fees an offset) >I want to support my LGS as they deserve my loayty--they have earned it


for accessories, If I do no t have to try it on(like gloves), I usually go internet shopping

I am known as the ammo man for my prowess of buying cheap internet ammo( cheaply priced not cheap quality). I can usually beat my LGS wholesale prices(what they pay for the ammo ex. they charge 13 dollars for 1 box of 9mm FMJ. I can get blazer aluminum 8.99 a box or blazer brass 10.49 a box). I save enough on ammo to pay for my range dues at 2 ranges i use

 

[basicblur]

Must be a generational 'thang?

Does no one go to their LGS just to kill a little time, catch up on all the local scuttlebutt, feed the shop dog, etc. these days?

I guess we're just blessed with not one, but two nice little shops (as well as a few good gunsmiths) in our area.

 

[Sam1911]

Does no one go to their LGS just to kill a little time, catch up on all the local scuttlebutt, feed the shop dog, etc. these days?

Er, no. Who has time to kill? Retirees, I suppose, but even most retirees I know stay far more active than to have time to stand around a retail shop if they aren't buying anything.

And the kind of "scuttlebutt" bandied about in most gun shops I've visited was not a credit to the speakers, nor a blessing to the listener, to put it mildly. More like the most inane drivel that gets deleted here at THR. Daft conspiracy theory, uneducated ranting about issues the speakers are not informed on, social and political commentary shameful to behold, legal advice so spurious as to be itself a crime, and so forth.

The last time I was subjected to that sort of rambling scuttlebutting, I stood patiently (though obviously waiting...) at an LGS gun counter with a shotgun I wanted to buy for twenty minutes while the owner and his pals chewed the fat until there was naught but gristle left of it.

When that guy lost his FFL (of many decades standing) due to gross and massive records errors, I couldn't conjure up a whit of sympathy for him.

 

[chicharrones]

Must be a generational 'thang?

Does no one go to their LGS just to kill a little time, catch up on all the local scuttlebutt, feed the shop dog, etc. these days?

I guess we're just blessed with not one, but two nice little shops (as well as a few good gunsmiths) in our area.

The local gun shops around me (urban and suburban) have too much customer traffic to set aside time for conversation beyond checking out a firearm.

Although, I have been to rural gun shops and they move at a different pace than urban or suburban gun shops. The rural gun shops are pretty good at having time to tell huntin' stories.

 

[txblackout]

mcbrides is great with a huge selection. When people were waiting months for a ruger ranch american in 300 blackout, I happened to walk in one day and was able to buy one. I could have sold it for more than I bought it.

They also sell reloading equipment and the guy at the counter will talk to you about tips, pros and cons of various powders etc.

We also have GT dist which does huge online business. They have a great selection of more tactical guns as they are geared towards police sales. They have bullet proof vests and other non firearm tactical gear.

Finally there is silencershop which also does huge internet business. They have great prices on suppressors and you can handle them and get a feel for how they fit on a gun.

The way for a brick and mortar store to survive is

1) specialize so that they can have much more inventory but specialized in an area with corresponding knowledge.
2) do internet business as well

It is easy to compete against walmart as walmart has a little bit of everything but has no depth.

 

[chicharrones]

Dial the way back machine about 30 years - before many of the posters in this thread were of legal age to buy firearms - and you discover mail order catalogs.

They were the hostile "internet" of their day. Those darn catalog warehouses were sniping sales from brick and mortar all the time. One warehouse, no retail storefront, just busy workers processing orders.

Yep. I ordered gun parts an motorcycle parts through catalogs in the '80s and '90s.

However, I still went to the local gun shop and motorcycle shop much more than before internet stores became common place.

With internet shopping, you don't have to talk to a human that might get your part numbers, credit card number, or address wrong.

If I had to put a figure on it, I probably visited local shops 90% of the time to make a purchase back when paper catalogs were used. Now with the internet, I probably visit local shops 30% of the time to make a purchase. This goes for all products, not just gun stuff.

 

[basicblur]

And the kind of "scuttlebutt" bandied about in most gun shops I've visited was not a credit to the speakers, nor a blessing to the listener, to put it mildly.

Wow...we must be blessed in our area!

Lots of the scuttlebutt I pick up at the local shop consist of the real story behind local crimes - not the useless drivel in the local paper (you usually have more questions after reading the article than you did before you started).

They often get the straight scoop from relatives, many times they know the person involved, especially with SD / home invasion shootings (they often sold the victim his gun), etc.

We also discuss a bit of politics, especially as it pertains to the 2nd Amendment / Constitution.

I can't recall ever hearing (wild) conspiracy theories etc. at our local shop.

I guess that's one thing that differentiates the smaller shops from the big box stores.

 

[chicharrones]

The way for a brick and mortar store to survive is

1) specialize so that they can have much more inventory but specialized in an area with corresponding knowledge.
2) do internet business as well

I'd agree with that.

 

[Sam1911]

I guess that's one thing that differentiates the smaller shops from the big box stores.

Yes, probably. The big box stores just don't have that sort of environment where the scuttlebutt gets planted and grows. It's a business and they're there to get customers in and out efficiently. The little shops are like mushroom farms. Dark, moist, and full of fertilizer!

 

[Swing]

Many retail industries are getting hit hard by the combination of big box stores and Internet sales, so this is hardly surprising. Pretty much anything gun-wise, except "firearms" as defined by federal law, can be shipped direct. If firearms ever could be shipped direct (which isn't going to happen, of course), I'm convinced most, though not all, LGS would simply disappear. There is no value added and most of them are outright obnoxious places to visit.

 

[tarosean]

When I see these posts. I am thankful I have some great FFL's near me.. Dont need to buy a firearm online, unless its some hard to find older gun on gunbroker, etc. Even then I dont pay for transfers.

Although the last LGS I purchased from ticked me off. The only reason I went there was because they were the only store within 60 miles to have the particular gun in stock. I ask them if they still have it? Its sitting in the display case. I tell them to box it up without even looking it over.
Filling out the form takes what 2 mins and I am a TX CHL holder so no background check.

I ended up waiting for almost 45mins to check out when I was the ONLY customer in the entire HUGE store. The 12yr old sales associate, (Least he looked that old) kept coming up with excuse after excuse, our online dept, etc.

One thing is for certain Ill never give them another dime of my money.

 

[alsaqr]

Lawton is Oklahoma's third largest city: Not one LGS. There are numerous pawn shops with FFLs whose primary purpose is ripping off GIs.

Duncan has a LGS but the guys prices are astronomical and i won't buy anything from him. My guns come from a pawn broker in another town. He charges me cost plus $40.

 

[oneounceload]

If firearms ever could be shipped direct (which isn't going to happen, of course), I'm convinced most, though not all, LGS would simply disappear. There is no value added and most of them are outright obnoxious places to visit.

Before 1968, you could order guns direct from the back of a magazine and have them shipped to your door - and there were many more gun shops than there are now so somewhere everyone felt there was a value being added.

Mine aren't obnoxious to visit, but their prices are super high - both small and large stores alike; not enough competition I suppose.

 

[Sam1911]

Before 1968, you could order guns direct from the back of a magazine and have them shipped to your door - and there were many more gun shops than there are now so somewhere everyone felt there was a value being added.

Do you have supporting data to validate the statement that there were many more gun shops prior to the late 1960s? I ask because, for one, there was simply less of everything then, than now. The US population has risen by nearly 60% between then and now. Do you mean that there were more, per capita? Or more total?

Secondly, what constitutes a "gun shop" prior to the GCA? Does the local gas station that had a couple of Model 94s for sale hanging on the wall of the office count?

And how would this be known, given that stores that sold guns weren't licensed as "gun stores?"

 

[jrdolall]

Let's say I want a new magazine for my 10-22. I go to my LGS and in all likelihood he has a couple. They ar probably 10% higher than I can buy them online but, what the heck, I want it this afternoon and Amazon will take two whole DAYS.
Let's say I want a new magazine for my Russian Makarov so I go to my local buy. I am betting 99% of them will not have one in stock. The good ones can order it for you and probably have it in within the week. I can probably go to my computer and have one at my door within a couple of days.

LGS will NEVER be able to stock everything we could possibly want. If I go to Midway and they are out then I go to Brownells and they are out then I go to xyz company and I find my item I probably don't get mad at Midway. The internet has a vast advantage in that their basic costs to do business are lower and that isn't going to change. LGS either have to adapt or they WILL disappear.

 

[TruthTellers]

Let's say I want a new magazine for my 10-22. I go to my LGS and in all likelihood he has a couple. They ar probably 10% higher than I can buy them online but, what the heck, I want it this afternoon and Amazon will take two whole DAYS.
Let's say I want a new magazine for my Russian Makarov so I go to my local buy. I am betting 99% of them will not have one in stock. The good ones can order it for you and probably have it in within the week. I can probably go to my computer and have one at my door within a couple of days.

LGS will NEVER be able to stock everything we could possibly want. If I go to Midway and they are out then I go to Brownells and they are out then I go to xyz company and I find my item I probably don't get mad at Midway. The internet has a vast advantage in that their basic costs to do business are lower and that isn't going to change. LGS either have to adapt or they WILL disappear.

When we compare a lgs to an online warehouse store like Midway or CTD, there's no way the lgs can compete. The lgs has to pay the rent every month, the electric bill, internet bill, security systems, insurance, wages, etc. and their customer base is WAY smaller than the internet stores.

Midway, CTD, and others do have to pay the same bills, which are higher, but their amount of customers dwarf the lgs. 20 years from now, the lgs in small towns will be gone, the only ones that will be around will be the ones in the cities and the local city gov't will regulate them into oblivion passing laws that tack on a 10% firearms sales tax on top of the normal sales tax.

 

[oneounceload]

Well, Sam, back then every department store sold guns, none do now; every farm supply, hardware store, drug stores and even a grocery store sold guns, not so may today. There was much more rural land and places to hunt and shoot, not as much today - but mostly, guns were the evil of all evils as portrayed today, there was no stigma attached to the as there is today.

I no longer the have Browning O/U I bought at JC Penney; nor can my friend go to A&F and get some ammo for Africa........

So while the internet has opened more avenues, a lot of B&Ms either couldn't (or won't) compete and go away. Good or bad depends on your own point of view.

 

[Sam1911]

Ok, that was really a main part of my question. You're counting "gun shops" as any place that had guns for sale, which was indeed lots.

(To that end, I actually do know of one place near here that's literally an old style lunch counter type storefront diner with about 10 stools, and which last time I was there still had one shotgun, two rifles, and a muzzle loader for sale on a pegboard at the end of the short-order cook station. And had their FFL framed on the wall over the cash register... Always makes me laugh and wonder about how it must have been back in the day.)

I still don't know if it was more than now, considering just how many retail establishments there are now, total, compared to then, and only some stores sold guns before 1968, not anywhere close to all but at least I understand where you're coming from.