Why Did It Take So Long For Semi-autos to Catch On?

[HGM22]

Why did it take so long for semi-auto pistols to catch on (in the U.S.; it seems like small semi-auto Walther PPK-type guns were popular with police in Europe)? It seems like revolvers were still being carried by most law enforcement agencies well into the 1980s despite the fact that the Colt 1911 had been around for some time. What's more, the military adopted the 1911 so many servicemen should have had experience with the 1911. Other quality designs existed as well, like the Browning Hi-Power, P38, and plenty more I'm unaware of I'm sure.

I'm not sure how popular semi-autos were with civilians either, but it seems like they weren't terribly popular, with lots of S&Ws and Colt revolvers being sold.

 

[TruthTellers]

Because capacities for automatics weren't so much more than revolvers it necessitated a change. There's also the fact that automatics weren't as reliable as revolvers with all the moving parts and springs and power of the ammo moving a slide.

Then there's the visual image of militarizing local peace officers with weapons built for war. Could ask the same question about why police are still using sedans and not armored Humvees as patrol vehicles.

But I think the biggest reason is that police officers had more experience with revolvers than they did automatics and if you have a cop who has carried a S&W model 10 for 20 years, why make him change to a 7+1 Colt 1911?

As for civilians, the same with reliability remains. It's also likely that revolvers cost less back then, which would be another reason police and sheriffs were using them so long.

 

[StrawHat]

Because it wasn't until the 90s that Gov't money was available to help local agencies buy firearms to replace revolvers. When that happened, the fellows who controlled the agency's money wanted self loaders and the manufacturers accommodated them.

Kevin

 

[Longhorn 76]

I don't think semi's were reliable with anything other than fmj ammo until the Glock era.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

The real reason that semi-autos didn't see common or widespread law enforcement use in the US until the '80s is because of ignorance and outdated knowledge among the people who set policy for major law enforcement agencies.

Oddly enough, some of those very same flawed opinions are still prevalent today. Such as: "There's also the fact that automatics weren't as reliable as revolvers with all the moving parts and springs and power of the ammo moving a slide."

Bollocks. By the late '70s semi automatic pistols had gone to two world wars, Korea, Vitenam and a host of minor conflicts the world over.

Take a look at the policy statements and training coming out of law enforcement agencies during the transition period and you will find it's rife with ignorance of semi-autos. There's a very good reason why the first generation of semi-autos used by police agencies in the '80s were almost always SA/DA with decockers and/or safeties. That would be institutional ignorance and fear based on inexperience with the technology. Remember, the guys writing the rules rarely have hands on experience with the equipment. So, when it came time to catch up with new technology, the guys writing the rules reverted to what they knew best, old technology. They mandated that the new semis be as revolver like as possible.. oh, and that they have safeties and deckockers. Never mind that the revolvers didn't have safeties. Shut your mouth you dirty semi-auto heathens. It took until the '90s and the retirement of most of those old hats before institutional thinking on semis began to change and guns like Glock started gaining market share over the old DA/SA guns.

Of course, you still have examples of institutional stupidity enforced by revolver thinking, like the NYPD and the "guaranteed to shoot bystanders" NY1 trigger.

So, the short answer to the question of why the transition to semis took so long with American Law Enforcement is... Fudds in uniform.

 

[bannockburn]

Probably for the same reason many departments stuck with revolvers for so long: lack of funds and old school hierarchy that believed 6 shots from a police revolver was all the patrolman needed. Good enough in the early 1900s; good enough today.

I think the Illinois State Police were one of the first large scale agencies to adopt a semi-auto, the S&W Model 39. Many other police departments and government agencies took notice of this and started to go with semi-autos as well.

 

[Jim K]

Hmmm. Maybe not all "stupidity" and "old hat". Even today, I seem to see a lot many more postings on the gun sites about malfunctions and various jams with auto pistols than with revolvers. Of course, some of that is due to folks playing gunsmith or using unsuitable ammo, but a lot of people still prefer a revolver that will fire six shots reliably to an auto pistol with a 15 or 20 round capacity that jams or mis-fires.

Jim

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Even today, I seem to see a lot many more postings on the gun sites about malfunctions and various jams with auto pistols than with revolvers.

I suspect that has a lot to do with there being a lot more semis out there than there are revolvers. For the vast majority of shooters, revolvers are dead tech these days... although I do know an officer with Dallas that still carries one.

...but a lot of people still prefer a revolver that will fire six shots reliably to an auto pistol with a 15 or 20 round capacity that jams or mis-fires.

You know, the only time I've done a failure drill is while doing... Failure Drills. I've never had a failure during an IDPA competition or during a defensive pistol course, and that includes the one I took that consisted of two days of standing in powder sand and shoveling sand filled magazines into my gun. The gun was crunchy and gritty and the magazines had to be physically ripped out of the mag well due to all the sand in there.. but not once did it fail for 1,000 rounds.

Can we please stop with the amateur hour "OMG semis jam!" garbage?

The revolvers don't fail/semi-autos jam are jam-o-matics myth needs to dies a messy death. There's simply no excuse for it other that blind pride in their tool of choice.

 

[Sistema1927]

Could it be that this was due to an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude? The venerable six-gun, sometimes backed up with a riot gun, did the job well for many decades.

 

[BobWright]

For many years only pistols such as the Colt Government Model or the Walther P-38 were marketed. Thses were either single action, or conventional double action.

Carrying the Government Model was either cocked and locked, or empty chamber, requiring the gun be racked before firing. The DA pistol could be fired DA for the first shot, but then SA for following shots, neither way as fast or as easily mastered as the DA revolver.

With the coming of the DAO, the auto postil really came into its own.

Bob Wright

 

[PJSprog]

I've never had a failure during an IDPA competition or during a defensive pistol course,

So, because it hasn't happened to you, then it doesn't happen?

I will respectfully submit that ^THIS^ is the myth that "needs to die a messy death."

I have a 1911 with which I have never experienced a failure. By your example, I should assume that all 1911s are this reliable. Of course, most of us understand that this assumption simply isn't true. We've all read countless stories of failures, and many of us have seen or experienced it first-hand.

 

[Teachu2]

When I was a Deputy Sheriff in the mid-80's, the issued weapon was a Model 19 - but pretty much anything was allowed as long as you could qualify with it and it wasn't loaded with magnums. No standardization at all.

Glock's initial assault on the LE market was the push many departments needed to standardize sidearms. Glock was determined to get as many LE holsters filled with their products as possible, and made lots of sweet deals to LEAs to make it happen. Imagine being a typical LEA with a strapped budget, and along comes a company that will supply every officer in the department with a new pistol that holds nearly 3x the ammo + extra magazines AT NO COST TO THE AGENCY - just trade in all those old wheelguns. It was a no-brainer to the agencies, and brilliant marketing by Glock. All those cops with Glocks gave them a huge entry in the civilian market.

 

[BSA1]

ClickClickD’oh negative and ill informed opinion aside the biggest reason for the switch to higher capacity semi-auto’s is the change in America’s culture and drug use.

In the 1960’s we learned expensive lessons about having a back up gun in the Onion Field murder and speed reloading in the infamous 1970 Newall killing of four Officers.

In the mid and late 1970s the most common illegal drugs we dealt with was marijuana and meth. In fact when I was in training as a Narc we were told by our instructors that we would never see cocaine as it was a rich person’s drug and would never be on the street. None of us could ever have foreseen crack cocaine.

With the rise in cocaine and crack came more money and more violent drug dealers and criminals. With more money criminals could afford to arm themselves with better weapons. Higher capacity handguns were seen as a fix for LEO’s instead of more costly training on the range.

Early semi-autos such as the S&W Model 59 and 39 left a lot to be desired. However use in the field has led to the design of better, more reliable guns and with it better ammunition.

 

[Teachu2]

Remember PCP aka Angel Dust? That Model 19 with .38s got me to qualify my 1911 before I went to the streets. BTW, Karl Hettinger was my next-door neighbor through my high school years.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

So, because it hasn't happened to you, then it doesn't happen?

Do you need an assist building that straw man? Probably not, you seem to be doing quite a good job of it.

Failures happen with semis. They aren't nearly as common as the internet claims. Failures happen with revolvers. They aren't nearly as rare as the internet claims.

ClickClickD’oh negative and ill informed opinion aside the biggest reason for the switch to higher capacity semi-auto’s is the change in America’s culture and drug use.

Why thank you for the mention, but please take note that I didn't say anything about what drove the change, only why it took so long to happen.

The thread started did after all ask why the transition took so long, not what finally pushed it to happen.

 

[PJSprog]

Well, ClickClickD'oh, if you go back and read it again, you'll see that I quoted your own post in which you presented that exact argument. You may want to review your definition of "straw man."

I tend to agree with the posters suggesting it was the cultural change that started in the '60s and '70s. Before that era, domestic LEOs didn't really need that kind of firepower in their community roles. The evolution of the common street criminal changed that. Most cops I know these days dress like SWAT team members for their daily patrols. Outside of private security, I can't remember the last time I saw a police officer with a revolver.

 

[JohnBiltz]

A lot of reasons it finally happened.

First was a perception that the police were being outgunned by the drug gangs. Up until the rising crime statistics that were the 70s a revolver was considered to be plenty of gun. Probably not completely true. And that automatics jammed a lot, which was certainly true up to the 80s.

I have not heard this mentioned but the .357 Magnum is one great round. It had a reputation on the street that persists to this day as an absolute man stopper.

Up until the 80s most pistols only had 7 to 9 rounds. The exception to that was the BHP. The increase of a couple of rounds was not considered to be enough to give up a revolvers reliability.

Something that has not been mentioned was the lack of good safeties. Until you started to see positive firing pin blocks people did not really trust pistol safeties, which is why we still have the legacy of Israeli carry.

I remember a friend of mine buying a 1911 in '82 and what he went through to get it to finally fire JHP. After first buying an expensive pistol, he then had it throated and polished, then he had to send it back again. On the subject of JHP, revolver JHP just worked a lot better. It was a lot more reliable to fire and when it came to ballistics they worked better.

Then in the early 80s out jumps Sig and Beretta. With fairly expensive but very reliable automatics that held 15 rounds. They offered a huge increase in capacity and were reliable even with JHP. Really reliable, near revolver reliable. The Wonder 9s had arrived.

And then came Glock. Uber reliability while shooting anything and everything. 17 round capacity. Looking back from 30 years later you have no idea how important those 2 additional rounds were considered back then. But here is the killer, Glocks were very inexpensive. I think they were nearly $200 cheaper than Sig and Beretta. Glock had a great marketing program. They managed to get just about every cop in the country to carry one. The gun grabbers were making claims that Glock wished they could get away with in their advertising. And Glocks sold and sold.

 

[Drail]

The true reason that law enforcement switched to semi auto pistols is because of a guy named Jim Zubiena. Google it.

 

[Tallball]

LEO's often have conservative personality types, traditional and somewhat resistant to change. As people get older, those sorts of personality traits become more prevalent.

You had a generation of LEO's eventually in charge of things, making the big decisions, who had become LEO's since they came home from WW11 and had risen through the ranks. And the "Great Generation" as a whole tended to be a traditional and conservative generation.

And a well-made revolver will last for decades if it isn't shot much and is properly maintained.

The results seem easily predictable.

 

[DeepSouth]

don't think semi's were reliable with anything other than fmj ammo until the Glock era.

I've heard this a lot and frankly, I don't buy it.
I haven't had the opportunity to shoot very many older semis but the ones I have ran fine. The older 1911's and BHP being the most common but I've also shot some smaller ones like the the 1908 and Baby Browning, though in my limited experience they were more troublesome. The CZ52 I had ran without issue.
Like I said, I just don't buy it, but I admit that's based on my very limited experience.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Well, ClickClickD'oh, if you go back and read it again, you'll see that I quoted your own post in which you presented that exact argument.

No, in fact I did not make the claim that semi auto firearms do not jam.

If you must insist on creating a falsehood, please at least kindly own up to it.

So, if your entire purpose in posting in this thread is to defeat an argument that I have never made, yet none the less you are willing to create out of thin air for the purposes of defeating it... Good day sir.

 

[tomrkba]

There's also the fact that 1911 pattern semi-automatics weren't as reliable as revolvers with all the moving parts and springs and power of the ammo moving a slide.

As Michael Bane puts it (paraphrasing): The standard operating procedure for Colt 1911 pistols in the 70's and 80's was to buy it and immediately send it to a gunsmith to make it work.


Umm...I think the real issues were training, familiarity, organizational politics/budgets and ammunition effectiveness. Other designs were fine in the reliability department.

There may have been issues with the features of existing designs (a review of existing designs in 1975-1985 would be interesting. Going through Gun Digest 1975-1985 would be useful). SIG didn't even get into the American market until 1985-1990 or so. I'm sure other companies were just expanding into the police market with the features they were looking for.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Because revolvers are cool and the good guys used them in the movies.

 

[tomrkba]

Because revolvers are cool and the good guys used them in the movies.

LOL

 

[.455_Hunter]

My brother's mid-80's Glock 17 was a jam-o-matic piece of junk, even with FMJ ammo.

I belive that the simplicty and basic manual of arms for a wheelgun kept it in frontline service longer than what "gun guys" would have expected.