Why did top break revolvers die out?

[Driftwood Johnson]

Some believed I was deliberately holding up the posse.

Them that didn't raised a stink until I showed them I was still faster than the majority.

Good Grief, what kind of posses are you shooting on where somebody thinks shooting a unique revolver in a unique way is 'holding up the posse'

I wouldn't shoot with those guys again.

But I am intrigued about how you managed to dump the empties out of a Schofield and reload without breaking the 170.

When I unload a Top Break at the unloading table, it is real difficult not to sweep somebody as I break the gun open and tilt it to the side to help the empties fall out.

 

[barnbwt]

I think a modern top-break in 9mm (using moonclips) with an easy thumb-operated latch and positive ejection would be interesting. Not enough would likely sell to pay for the R&D and tooling though...

Gotta make it ugly, too, and with rails (this is a shot at the Korth Sky Marshal )

Here's a revolver like you describe.

It's from the Japanese Anime 'Trigun' .

My design is tentatively titled --wait for it-- the Stampede (Typhoon a close second)
Not quite as ridiculously oversized as that hogleg though it is an 8-shot 357, nor containing a Plant reactor, but similar overall layout and controls (thumb break, automatic ejectors, double action, bottom-firing, compact rear frame & lockwork). Believe it or not, the biggest hurdle is making the thing look decent, a problem that plagues all bottom-firing revolvers (and why Vash's gun has a huge blocky 'empty space' above the barrel in order to look 'right'). Ghisoni (of MATEBA) had the best idea as far as putting an exaggerated vent-rib there for the sight-riser.

When the brass sticks in the chamber, the ejector wont let you open the action.

With a swing out cylinder, a metal rod can knock the brass out of the cylinders.

It's still a show-stopper in any case, not much different from a torn-off rim in a semi-auto, though I agree it's easier to fix at the smith. I'd argue that the leverage of the barrel --even if it's hard on the ejector & cam-- is superior to bashing more forcefully against a notoriously delicate ejector pin/crane.

Case in point; first time I took my TRR8 357 to the range, I got a badly stuck 38spl +P case. When my thumb did not budge the ejector rod, I pressed harder...and punched a hole right through the primary skin layers of my thumb pad. The S&W design locks the rod in the frame with a ball bearing that seats into a recess in the tip of the ejector rod, making that rod act very much like a hole-punch if you press too hard on it. Bled like crazy for such a shallow wound, too, and took forever to heal (plus I got gun oil in it)

Side-swing frames also have a serious problem if you get bullets that creep forward under recoil; similar type of tied-up action with no readily-available solution. At least the top break with a stuck case can be deactivated for safe loaded transport to a gunsmith by breaking it partially open (and the loaded rounds removed so long as they aren't themselves stuck or clipped to the others)

TCB

 

[Old judge creek]

Good Grief, what kind of posses are you shooting on where somebody thinks shooting a unique revolver in a unique way is 'holding up the posse'

I wouldn't shoot with those guys again.

But I am intrigued about how you managed to dump the empties out of a Schofield and reload without breaking the 170.

When I unload a Top Break at the unloading table, it is real difficult not to sweep somebody as I break the gun open and tilt it to the side to help the empties fall out.

Driftwood,

My strong side is my right - all of the following occurs in a fraction of a second:
1) gun pointed down range and round #5 fired ... <BANG>
2) as I lower the piece I do a quarter turn to the left and raise my boot heel - thus breaking my right knee
3) as the piece comes down, thumb breaks the latch as my hand turns inwards (pointing the pistol butt downrange)
4 ) as the barrel points to the ground at a slight downrange angle it brushes my thigh...
5) star pops up and empties the revolver

Never once was I called on breaking the plain, although I did have to demonstrate my technique to a couple of concerned "safety officers".

Being a certified range master, back in the mid 90s I wrote range rules and taught RO classes for my club before there were any officially adopted by SASS.

As far as the posse complainers ... recent nightly news following the election proves yet again, they'll always be with us.

Oh, a suggestion for you at the unloading table: point the barrel muzzle down at a very slight angle towards the back of the table and hold that position with your off hand while you manipulate the frame and grip with the strong hand to verify its unloaded.

I've always fancied Remington pattern derringers (yes, I know the correct term would be Deringer). I finally acquired one about 30 years ago, an American Derringer in 357 mag. That firearm is IMO the single most dangerous firearm (to the user) I've ever seen. De-fanging one of those at a SASS unloading table requires using juggling skills and hand washing techniques. All the while keeping time 2/2 against 5/8 with your bass drum and high hat, patting your head and scratching your.... all simultaneously.

 

[kBob]

The original Webley speed loaders where a holder type, not moon types. There were flat metal fingers that held the cartridges on te front half of the device that popped out like flower petals when one wanted to release the ammo into the cylinder.

Can we say Steam Punk?

There was also a brass hilted bayonet for the later military models.

There must be internet photos some where.

 

[Kaeto]

 

[Malamute]

The original Webley speed loaders where a holder type, not moon types. There were flat metal fingers that held the cartridges on te front half of the device that popped out like flower petals when one wanted to release the ammo into the cylinder.

Can we say Steam Punk?

There was also a brass hilted bayonet for the later military models.

There must be internet photos some where.

Pic link for Webley speed loaders in post 49.

 

[Kendal Black]

Here is the Prideaux speedloader, grandpappy of the HKS's I use today:

One video is worth a thousand pictures:



The break-top revolver has a lot going for it! What the Hand Ejector trumped it with was simpler and stronger construction, and approximately equal speed and convenience.

 

[eazyrider]

Here is the Prideaux speedloader, grandpappy of the HKS's I use today:

One video is worth a thousand pictures:



The break-top revolver has a lot going for it! What the Hand Ejector trumped it with was simpler and stronger construction, and approximately equal speed and convenience.

That is awesome! Thanks for posting this.

 

[chicharrones]

My design is tentatively titled --wait for it-- the Stampede

Like the Beretta SAA clone?

 

[Kaeto]

Like the Beretta SAA clone?

In the anime that the design comes from the main character was known as 'Vash the Stampede The humanoid Typhoon'.

 

[chicharrones]

In the anime that the design comes from the main character was known as 'Vash the Stampede The humanoid Typhoon'.

Gotcha... I've seen very little anime.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Here is the Prideaux speedloader, grandpappy of the HKS's I use today:

One video is worth a thousand pictures:



The break-top revolver has a lot going for it! What the Hand Ejector trumped it with was simpler and stronger construction, and approximately equal speed and convenience.

VERY cool! If I were a doughboy in the trenches, I'd want a Webley as a backup and a pocket full of Prideauxs!

 

[barnbwt]

"Like the Beretta SAA clone?"
"In the anime that the design comes from the main character was known as 'Vash the Stampede The humanoid Typhoon'."
Yup, only a double action top-break that bears little relation (and is a not so subtle reference to that goofy old show. Despite often being silly, the creators did have a penchant for eye-catching gun designs, and this was one of them)

I like those Webley clips; I always thought push-based speedloaders made the most sense. The Webley's also solve the twin issues of loose rounds when the rim/clip fit isn't super tight & the cartridges long, and being able to be handloaded easily without clip damage (looks like they just slide in from the rear when the outer ring is removed). Someone on here a while back posted a nifty gizmo they cooked up, which was a simple loop of Kydex that wrapped around a loaded moonclip under tension, flared on the forward end to fit over the end of the cylinder. It held all the bullets in alignment (an issue on larger, loose clips like my 8-shot TRR8's) while protecting the moonclip in a sort of speed loader format, and would align itself concentric to the cylinder with the flared end as your thumb pushed inward on the moonclip until it seated in the cylinder and popped free of the kydex ring that could now fall freely as the cylinder was closed.

TCB

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

When the brass sticks in the chamber, the ejector wont let you open the action.

With a swing out cylinder, a metal rod can knock the brass out of the cylinders.

Maybe I've been lucky, but I have never had a case jam in the chamber of a Top Break revolver.

 

[Malamute]

I like those Webley clips; I always thought push-based speedloaders made the most sense. The Webley's also solve the twin issues of loose rounds when the rim/clip fit isn't super tight & the cartridges long, and being able to be handloaded easily without clip damage (looks like they just slide in from the rear when the outer ring is removed).

The Safariland loaders are pushed to activate. That's probably another operational advantage of use with a top break, as you wouldn't have to hold the cylinder to keep it from turning as you would to get an HKS loader to release.

The Safariland loaders also hold the shells in much better alignment than the HKS, not so loose and floppy. That varies with the different models, but even the Comp 1 is better than the HKS in that regard. Some HKS attempted to remedy that to a degree with plastic flanges that seem to reduce the sloppiness, but it wasn't as successful as the Safariland design in that regard.

The last part, "looks like they just slide in from the rear when the outer ring is removed", see the video below. It shows the full function instead of just a fast flash of the use of it.

 

[barnbwt]

Maybe I've been lucky, but I have never had a case jam in the chamber of a Top Break revolver.

To be fair, the selection of cartridges for available top breaks has a lot to do with it (low pressure, typtically a short case)

 

[Tallball]

What a great thread! Mr. Driftwood is a treasure. And now y'all have done it to me again. I am about to get on GB and look for affordable top-break revolvers.

 

[Panzerschwein]

What a great thread! Mr. Driftwood is a treasure. And now y'all have done it to me again. I am about to get on GB and look for affordable top-break revolvers.

Don't hesitate to hunt for a Webley .38. From my research they are quite tough for a top-break gun. They aren't terribly inexpensive, around $500 for a shooter, but they are great and will last. I sure love mine!

 

[25-5]

Webley yes, and the Enfield (No.2 Mk1) too. Both top breaks are built like tanks when compared to the US versions.
If you can find them for $500, buy them both, at that price.

 

[Merle1]

This explains a lot about your perception, or mis-perception of reloading the cylinder of a side swinging revolver.

It isn't that it is small potatoes, it is just that you are going about it incorrectly. If you use the correct technique, when ejecting the empty cases from the cylinder, they don't become wedged between the grip and the cylinder. It sounds like you are holding the revolver horizontally when pushing the ejection rod...and you're not pushing very briskly.

The correct technique is the hold the barrel/ejection rod pointing up and having the cases fall straight down out of the cylinder. The barrel is then pointed downward to allow the fresh cartridges to be inserted...straight down into the chambers. There should be nothing blocking the pathway of the fresh cartridges

Not 100% true - some grip designs will not allow ejection of all six cases at once.

 

[Kaeto]

I had to cut away some of the right side grip on my Charter Undercover Southpaw in order to use a speed loader on it.

 

[Malamute]

Not 100% true - some grip designs will not allow ejection of all six cases at once.

Ive modified several sets (8-10-12?) of Smith & Wesson grips to clear speedloaders. Ive seen pics of Pachmayrs that were whittled out with a pocket knife or similar to clear them also. Making the gun function well is my top priority.

 

[Kaeto]

The same speedloaders that fit my Southpaw also fit my Top Break H&R Safety Hammerless.

 

[barnbwt]

Have we mentioned that top-breaks are generally ambidextrous, yet? Lefties are usually just told to suck it up when it comes to reloading procedures of swing-out revolvers.

TCB

 

[Kaeto]

The Charter Arms Undercover Southpaw is the only revolver specifically made for left-handers.

https://charterfirearms.com/collections/southpaw