rantingredneck
Member
List it over in the for sale section and I'm sure you'll get some hits.
why do the "experts" like the 870 over the mossberg 500?
- Thread starter stevereno1
- Start date
- Status
evan price
Member
I prefer the Mossberg over the Remington, but I like my Winchester 1200 Police better than my Mossberg. I prefer the Maverick 88 cross-bolt safety over the 500''s tang safety. It's the same as the Winchester.
MCgunner
Member
Wowsers, with a barrel that long, that baby has to reach out there, uh?
j/k
I had said in response to a poster saying the aluminum reciever was superior because it would not rust:
"Huh? Doesn't rust? As in doesn't produce iron oxide because there is no iron in it? I'll buy that. However it CORRODES like nobody's business. With good surface protection it will be fine, get a corrosive agent, like salt water, inside at uncoated wear areas and see what happens. "
Old thread, but I had to say. Don't know where you've been but I've been fixing aluminum helicopters, some with boat hulls. They corrode. Big time.
What will happen with an alloy shotgun and corrosion is one of two things. The oxide layer will eventually form and wear steel parts or you will get an electrolyte(blood, sweat, salt water, pee, beer, etc) in the internals and it will do its part to establish a galvanic cell between the aluminum reciever and the steel bits inside it. Lubes and oils displace electrolytes and prevent this. A surface treatment such as anodizing can prevent this. Wherever moving parts are in the action the surface treatment will be gone. Not saying an Al shotgun will turn to grayish-white dust in your hands, just that they are not magically impervious to corrosion as was originally suggested.
Far more likely to have the Al reciever just plain wear out from use than corrode to death. There is not an aluminum gun on the market that will last as long as a steel counterpart.
The more I read back in this thread the more I like my Ithaca 37.
"Huh? Doesn't rust? As in doesn't produce iron oxide because there is no iron in it? I'll buy that. However it CORRODES like nobody's business. With good surface protection it will be fine, get a corrosive agent, like salt water, inside at uncoated wear areas and see what happens. "
Old thread, but I had to say. Don't know where you've been but I've been fixing aluminum helicopters, some with boat hulls. They corrode. Big time.
What will happen with an alloy shotgun and corrosion is one of two things. The oxide layer will eventually form and wear steel parts or you will get an electrolyte(blood, sweat, salt water, pee, beer, etc) in the internals and it will do its part to establish a galvanic cell between the aluminum reciever and the steel bits inside it. Lubes and oils displace electrolytes and prevent this. A surface treatment such as anodizing can prevent this. Wherever moving parts are in the action the surface treatment will be gone. Not saying an Al shotgun will turn to grayish-white dust in your hands, just that they are not magically impervious to corrosion as was originally suggested.
Far more likely to have the Al reciever just plain wear out from use than corrode to death. There is not an aluminum gun on the market that will last as long as a steel counterpart.
The more I read back in this thread the more I like my Ithaca 37.
Ash
Member
Aluminum does corrode. However, the Mossberg receiver holds up to water much better than the 870.
My first pump action was an 870 and it killed many ducks and a few geese. I liked it just fine. I then picked up a Western Field branded Mossberg 500 (gasp, a single action bar model!). It was chambered for 3" shells. I shouldered it, worked the safety while raising it up to the shoulder, did all sorts of drills with it and realized I preferred the 500 to the 870. The safety works just the same way as my Savage 333, the stock fits me, and the action is smooth.
I bought the 870 because of the steel receiver. But the receiver developed rust in a few patches, which irritated me because I do keep them oiled. The barrel did not develop any rust. It worked just fine for me, but after trying out the Mossberg, I was hooked. Both of my Mossy's are Western Field versions, one is a single bar, the other a double bar. The single bar is now older than 30 years and it still runs great.
I used to dismiss the safety argument, but for me at least, the Mossy safety is easier to use when rising up on ducks.
Ash
My first pump action was an 870 and it killed many ducks and a few geese. I liked it just fine. I then picked up a Western Field branded Mossberg 500 (gasp, a single action bar model!). It was chambered for 3" shells. I shouldered it, worked the safety while raising it up to the shoulder, did all sorts of drills with it and realized I preferred the 500 to the 870. The safety works just the same way as my Savage 333, the stock fits me, and the action is smooth.
I bought the 870 because of the steel receiver. But the receiver developed rust in a few patches, which irritated me because I do keep them oiled. The barrel did not develop any rust. It worked just fine for me, but after trying out the Mossberg, I was hooked. Both of my Mossy's are Western Field versions, one is a single bar, the other a double bar. The single bar is now older than 30 years and it still runs great.
I used to dismiss the safety argument, but for me at least, the Mossy safety is easier to use when rising up on ducks.
Ash
BruceRDucer
Member
I bought the Mossberg 500
Both pumpguns looked good to me.
I was considering both at purchase time.
The fact that the Marine Corps (Semper Fidelis!) used the Mossberg Pump suggested that at least the Mossberg would be okay. I was willing to consider that the Remington 870 could be a gun of fine quality also.
The Mossberg's "plus" features for me were:
Dual Extractor, the refined Shell Lifter, Aluminum Receiver for lightness, the Tang Safety.
[You'd think that in a gun forum like this, some Senior Member might address the issue of the CROSSBOLT SAFETY versus TANG SAFETY with some clear comments, rather than all this wishy-washy "mellow-speak" but I guess political correctness counts for something!"
]
The Remington 870 and Mossberg 500 look like adequate guns to me. I did learn one new thing that might be relevent. I take the experienced shooters at their word that the Remington is easier to strip and clean. That might have swayed me toward a Remington 870 had I known. I bought the AGI DVD on Disassembly/Assembly etc.
But I'm happy with the Mossberg, and should be into reloading soon. This forum is really the best on educating us about good gear.
**********************************************
[Don't nobody ever call me stoopud. I am ...."otherly-gifted" ]
Both pumpguns looked good to me.
I was considering both at purchase time.
The fact that the Marine Corps (Semper Fidelis!) used the Mossberg Pump suggested that at least the Mossberg would be okay. I was willing to consider that the Remington 870 could be a gun of fine quality also.
The Mossberg's "plus" features for me were:
Dual Extractor, the refined Shell Lifter, Aluminum Receiver for lightness, the Tang Safety.
[You'd think that in a gun forum like this, some Senior Member might address the issue of the CROSSBOLT SAFETY versus TANG SAFETY with some clear comments, rather than all this wishy-washy "mellow-speak" but I guess political correctness counts for something!"
] The Remington 870 and Mossberg 500 look like adequate guns to me. I did learn one new thing that might be relevent. I take the experienced shooters at their word that the Remington is easier to strip and clean. That might have swayed me toward a Remington 870 had I known. I bought the AGI DVD on Disassembly/Assembly etc.
But I'm happy with the Mossberg, and should be into reloading soon. This forum is really the best on educating us about good gear.
**********************************************
[Don't nobody ever call me stoopud. I am ...."otherly-gifted" ]
plexreticle
Member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2006
- Messages
- 1,240
Many of the so called experts get paid for their opinions.
TCB in TN
Member
I have owned both, hunted and shot with both and I don't have a real problem with either of them. Now that said I have a Mossy 500 loaded with 00 buck for home protection, but were I to have an 870 I wouldn't feel to upset about it either.
BTW I ain't likely to be shootin 65K rounds through my shotty, much less 250K or the like. I just want my shotty to be reliable under my type of normal usage, IOW sit loaded and waiting until I have time to run a box of shells through it for prac, or sit loaded waiting until TSHTF and I need it! Both do that well enough for me.
BTW I ain't likely to be shootin 65K rounds through my shotty, much less 250K or the like. I just want my shotty to be reliable under my type of normal usage, IOW sit loaded and waiting until I have time to run a box of shells through it for prac, or sit loaded waiting until TSHTF and I need it! Both do that well enough for me.
BruceRDucer
Member
low bidder
"Just remember that the Marines have the 590 because Mossberg was the low bidder..."--asknight
Oh yeah? Just remember THIS:
Marines get the job done. SEMPER FIDELIS Gear aint all that big a deal. It's the will to overcome the limitations of the gear, anyday.
"Just remember that the Marines have the 590 because Mossberg was the low bidder..."--asknight
Oh yeah? Just remember THIS:
Marines get the job done. SEMPER FIDELIS Gear aint all that big a deal. It's the will to overcome the limitations of the gear, anyday.
I prefer the Mossberg safety. I have a Ghost-Ring Cyl bore, Parked. The only mod I've made was swapping out the incredibly long factory synthetic stock for an Outers Cadet. I put some Moly lube on the action bars, and pumped a couple of hundred times.
Fits me perfectly, now. I've seen Mossbergs used in my infantry company, and I've seen them used in ODA (SF) camp, along with other SGs.
At the same time, I agree that the 870 usually seems to have less rattle. Also, the used 870 I bought for Byron's birthday a few years ago was probably the smoothest slide-action I've ever felt.
John
Fits me perfectly, now. I've seen Mossbergs used in my infantry company, and I've seen them used in ODA (SF) camp, along with other SGs.
At the same time, I agree that the 870 usually seems to have less rattle. Also, the used 870 I bought for Byron's birthday a few years ago was probably the smoothest slide-action I've ever felt.
John
I'm not a "senior" member, but having spent plenty of time with both guns I'll address it. The tang safety on the 500 is slightly easier to use than the crossbolt safety on the 870. But the safety is of only marginal importance on a shotgun; personally, I never use them. The most important control on the gun is the slide release. I have always found the slide release on the 500 to be in an extremely awkward location. The 870's slide release is much faster and easier to manipulate.
The other thing to remember about the safeties is that the one on the 870 tends to stay attached to the gun, while the one on the 500 has a distressing habit of flying off. Replacing the safety button or some of its parts (like the little tiny detent ball) is probably the most common repair on a 500. It's only held in place by a screw, and when that screw works loose you can kiss the safety button goodbye. It takes five parts to replace that safety if everything comes off the gun (actually, the detent spring will most likely stay put, so you probably won't have to buy more than four).
If you've got a 500, be sure to tighten that screw periodically.
As for dual extractors, it's a good thing it's got two of them. That way, when one breaks (as they are wont to do), you've still got one good one. The problem is, the design doesn't work that well with only one extractor. In my experience the 870, with only one extractor (like the 1911, Mauser 98, etc., etc.) suffers far fewer extraction problems than the 500 does. The one extractor on the 870 is just designed better than the two on the 500.
If you've got a 500, keep the chamber nice and clean. They can be prone to pitting, and if that happens keep a cleaning rod handy to punch out the empty shells that won't extract. You'll also want to stay away from the Winchester bulk packs from Wal-Mart, because they tend to stick in the chamber and the 500 will really struggle with them (they're sticky in 870s, too, but I've never had to punch one out of an 870). The Remington and Federal bulk packs are OK.
Ash
Member
Hmm,
Not to start a flame war, but I think the tendencies you mention are not. The seem more like pretty big exaggerations. I have never, ever encountered Mossberg's with pitted chambers, and that includes the ratty ones you encounter at the pawn shop. I have also never had my safety screws become loose. Indeed, I just checked them both because of this thread and they are both still tight. I have never messed with them. I have also never had a problem with extraction. Again, if this were a problem I would encounter a bunch of said ratty Mossy's at the pawnshop with broken extractors, but I haven't.
I will agree that the plastic safety switch is much maligned, for good reason. I have one with a metal and one with a plastic. The plastic had not broken, but I have seen them broken. One should not have to plan to replace a part like that. The good thing is that replacement metal switches are cheap. They should not be needed, though.
However, the slide release on the Mossberg is generally considered easier to operate than the Remington. I can do it with the shotgun on my shoulder without any problem, one handed, with my trigger hand. It may merely be personal preference, I admit, but the three pretty universal draws for the Mossberg are the safety location, the slide release location, and the shell-lifter design.
As to not using a safety on a shotgun, no offense, but I would never want you in my duck blind or walking in the field with me if you refuse to use one. I'd rather not have BB or T shot blasted into my ear, or have my foot or leg shot off during a rabbit or quail hunt. I mean that with no insult, but on our hunts, the safety is used. If you won't use one, you don't hunt with us.
Ash
Not to start a flame war, but I think the tendencies you mention are not. The seem more like pretty big exaggerations. I have never, ever encountered Mossberg's with pitted chambers, and that includes the ratty ones you encounter at the pawn shop. I have also never had my safety screws become loose. Indeed, I just checked them both because of this thread and they are both still tight. I have never messed with them. I have also never had a problem with extraction. Again, if this were a problem I would encounter a bunch of said ratty Mossy's at the pawnshop with broken extractors, but I haven't.
I will agree that the plastic safety switch is much maligned, for good reason. I have one with a metal and one with a plastic. The plastic had not broken, but I have seen them broken. One should not have to plan to replace a part like that. The good thing is that replacement metal switches are cheap. They should not be needed, though.
However, the slide release on the Mossberg is generally considered easier to operate than the Remington. I can do it with the shotgun on my shoulder without any problem, one handed, with my trigger hand. It may merely be personal preference, I admit, but the three pretty universal draws for the Mossberg are the safety location, the slide release location, and the shell-lifter design.
As to not using a safety on a shotgun, no offense, but I would never want you in my duck blind or walking in the field with me if you refuse to use one. I'd rather not have BB or T shot blasted into my ear, or have my foot or leg shot off during a rabbit or quail hunt. I mean that with no insult, but on our hunts, the safety is used. If you won't use one, you don't hunt with us.
Ash
Marshall
Member
I have an 870 but if you walk into pawn shops and look at the shotgun racks, you'll see used Mossbergs that have been shot quite a bit, in pretty darn good condition. They're not the prettiest but they seem to be workhorses.
jack the toad
Member
In my limited experience, Mossys are ok and have some features that make sense; ie, the tang safety is the same for leftys and righties. Although being right-handed, I prefer the cross bolt safety.
I also own a Beneli Nova that I like but I still prefer the 870.
I also own a Beneli Nova that I like but I still prefer the 870.
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
RE Crossbolt vs tang safeties....
First,I've never EVER run across an 870 with a broken safety. Some 500 Mossbergs do have the plastic button bust.With metal buttons so widely available, this is but an annoyance.
As for ambidexterity,pushing the crossbolt off with the thumb when operating sinistrally (LH) and on with the left index finger can be mastered in 10 minutes of use by all but the most clumsy.
Third, I find the slide release on the Mossie harder to find,but I've not had 50 years of frequent practice with that system. The Remington release is quite easy to find, hard to activate accidentally, and as reliable as the rest of the weapon.
Finally, both weapons are good. Try them out, get the one that FEELS best....
First,I've never EVER run across an 870 with a broken safety. Some 500 Mossbergs do have the plastic button bust.With metal buttons so widely available, this is but an annoyance.
As for ambidexterity,pushing the crossbolt off with the thumb when operating sinistrally (LH) and on with the left index finger can be mastered in 10 minutes of use by all but the most clumsy.
Third, I find the slide release on the Mossie harder to find,but I've not had 50 years of frequent practice with that system. The Remington release is quite easy to find, hard to activate accidentally, and as reliable as the rest of the weapon.
Finally, both weapons are good. Try them out, get the one that FEELS best....
41magsnub
Member
Besides.. southpaws are abominations before nature and should not be pandered to, instead forced to learn to shoot right handed like the normal folk!
/ducks, runs, giggles
/ducks, runs, giggles
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
41, you've been hanging out with sm, huh?....
chieftain
Member
Errrr... not exactly.
Actually the Mossy 590 won a shoot off, which included the Remington 870. Simply put the Mossy didn't break, the Remington did. IIRC it was 3000 rounds. It is that fact thingy that keeps getting in some peoples way.
Of course in an earlier post in this thread I reported my combat experiences with the 870 in Vietnam in the 60's. No body wanted them. Now they are supposedly fixed or better. My 590 doesn't require a replacement yet, so the point is moot, for me. With that said, the night sights on my 590 do need to be replaced. they are about 17 years old.
I don't know about the rest of you guy's, but I bought the steel safety right after getting the 590, locktited' the heck out of it, and have never had a lick of problems. Where I learned my weapons maintenance we called it PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE.
But frankly I do that with all my fighting weapons. Every weapon has a weak spot. If you know about it, and a fix is available, what kind of person doesn't fix it before it fails?
DUH!
For the record, the shot gun next to my bed is a "coach" gun. Legally Short, double barrels and a couple of "dog ears". It is real reliable.
Go figure.
Fred
contender
Member
Well, I'm a lefty and have had some experience with remington and mossberg in the hunting fields and in police work.
The position of the safety to me is just personal likes or dislikes. As a lefty, I have had no trouble with the location of the safety on the 870. A man trains and gets accustomed to dealing with what he has on hand. If this was such a big deal in the location of a operational part of the gun, then left handers would avoid most semi-auto pistols like the plague as far as decockers on the sig line and slide releases on the majority of the rest as they were designed for the right hand man.
And right handed single action revolver shooters would be up the creek as far as the position of the loading gate.
So I ain't buying into the left hand right hand thing.
Mossbergs--a bargin as far as price. The safety as issued is the weak point and should be replaced with a metal one---that will cure 99% of the gripes I have encountered with the mossberg. Most officers also are like gorilla bagage handlers. The mossberg receiver will get scratched all to heck and back but thats cosmetics. The wood on the mossberg was apple crate and not good quality compared to the remington---but everyone seems to be going to plastic stocks nowadays so that may no be an issue.
Never seen a broken extractor on a mossberg but I have seen ejectors missing from becoming unscrewed.
Seen remington 870's with very rough chambers right out of the box and had to be polished. Only broken parts replaced on the 870's i've seen where the extractor---and then the guns were abused in the hunting fields for years and never properly taken care of. Seems the 870 is smoother but I have had more feed problems with the 870 than the mossberg.
Either will do for hunting or defense. Given a choice, I'd rather have an older model ithaca. Not for any paticular technical advantage----just because is enough.
The position of the safety to me is just personal likes or dislikes. As a lefty, I have had no trouble with the location of the safety on the 870. A man trains and gets accustomed to dealing with what he has on hand. If this was such a big deal in the location of a operational part of the gun, then left handers would avoid most semi-auto pistols like the plague as far as decockers on the sig line and slide releases on the majority of the rest as they were designed for the right hand man.
And right handed single action revolver shooters would be up the creek as far as the position of the loading gate.
So I ain't buying into the left hand right hand thing.
Mossbergs--a bargin as far as price. The safety as issued is the weak point and should be replaced with a metal one---that will cure 99% of the gripes I have encountered with the mossberg. Most officers also are like gorilla bagage handlers. The mossberg receiver will get scratched all to heck and back but thats cosmetics. The wood on the mossberg was apple crate and not good quality compared to the remington---but everyone seems to be going to plastic stocks nowadays so that may no be an issue.
Never seen a broken extractor on a mossberg but I have seen ejectors missing from becoming unscrewed.
Seen remington 870's with very rough chambers right out of the box and had to be polished. Only broken parts replaced on the 870's i've seen where the extractor---and then the guns were abused in the hunting fields for years and never properly taken care of. Seems the 870 is smoother but I have had more feed problems with the 870 than the mossberg.
Either will do for hunting or defense. Given a choice, I'd rather have an older model ithaca. Not for any paticular technical advantage----just because is enough.
Actually, it doesn't matter whether the safety button is metal or plastic...either way, they're still just held in place with a screw. The one I just replaced was metal.
Loctite is not a bad idea, but the geniuses at Mossberg have decided to make the screw a one-way screw--you can drive it in, but once it's tightened down it's mighty hard to back it out again. Makes it a little tough to put it in once to test the fit and function, then back it out and apply the Loctite.
I've never had to polish a chamber on an 870--never seen one, even an Express, that didn't have a mirror-bright bore and chamber. I have had to polish a chamber on a 500. This was a used gun, but the bore was smooth enough and the rest of the parts in good enough shape that neglect is not a likely explanation. The grotesque tool marks on some of the internal parts indicate the manufacture may not have been all that careful.
I've never worked on a 590, so I don't know much of an improvement it might be over the basic 500 design.
As for safeties while hunting...I would use one in those conditions, and not find the tang safety substantially more convenient than a crossbolt (a crossbolt safety is slow to apply, but quick to take off). A tang safety is easier for lefties, or shooters with short fingers. I suffer from neither condition.
But I wouldn't want to hunt with anybody who relied on a safety to keep him safe.
In my experience, seeing recent-manufacture 870s and 500s shooting side by side, the 500 is more prone to malfunction, more prone to breakage, and generally not built as well as the 870. If you really feel like you need to buy a 500, be aware of its weaknesses and stay on top of them.
Loctite is not a bad idea, but the geniuses at Mossberg have decided to make the screw a one-way screw--you can drive it in, but once it's tightened down it's mighty hard to back it out again. Makes it a little tough to put it in once to test the fit and function, then back it out and apply the Loctite.
I've never had to polish a chamber on an 870--never seen one, even an Express, that didn't have a mirror-bright bore and chamber. I have had to polish a chamber on a 500. This was a used gun, but the bore was smooth enough and the rest of the parts in good enough shape that neglect is not a likely explanation. The grotesque tool marks on some of the internal parts indicate the manufacture may not have been all that careful.
I've never worked on a 590, so I don't know much of an improvement it might be over the basic 500 design.
As for safeties while hunting...I would use one in those conditions, and not find the tang safety substantially more convenient than a crossbolt (a crossbolt safety is slow to apply, but quick to take off). A tang safety is easier for lefties, or shooters with short fingers. I suffer from neither condition.
But I wouldn't want to hunt with anybody who relied on a safety to keep him safe.
In my experience, seeing recent-manufacture 870s and 500s shooting side by side, the 500 is more prone to malfunction, more prone to breakage, and generally not built as well as the 870. If you really feel like you need to buy a 500, be aware of its weaknesses and stay on top of them.
Ash
Member
I would be very nervous hunting with a guy who doesn't use a safety. Any man who sits in a duck blind with a shotgun not placed on safe is not safe to hunt with. Or, do you keep your shotgun unloaded until the ducks fly in?
Ash
Ash
Last edited:
Cosmoline
Member
I love the Mossy 500. The 870 is OK, but the safety is absurd for anyone who has to go cocked and locked. A wee switch you can't even see. The tang safety is far superior. For bear country I'd never want an 870.
Also, I've found the Mossy 500 to be amazingly tough. I remember after one particularly active salmon fishing season I cleaned it out and found about two cups of silty sand in the action from its repeated dunkings in rivers and creeks. It still functioned fine.
As far as life expectancy, I can't comment. The Remington may well be better suited for shooting clay targets and such. For me the shotgun's sole purpose is to deliver an enormous slug of lead very quickly. Whether it will last 100k rounds shooting for fun is totally irrelevant.
Really? I had one breakage from landing on rocks, but the safety still functioned even then and it was a very easy fix. I've never seen a Mossberg safety "fly off," and I've pumped the most powerful 12 ga. slugs made through it over and over again. The recoil from the high end Brenneke magnums is intense, and if the thing was going to fall apart it would have.
If they could make an 870 in stainless with a tang safety and a slugster barrel I might go with one. Otherwise I'll stick to the humble Mossy Swede.
Also, I've found the Mossy 500 to be amazingly tough. I remember after one particularly active salmon fishing season I cleaned it out and found about two cups of silty sand in the action from its repeated dunkings in rivers and creeks. It still functioned fine.
As far as life expectancy, I can't comment. The Remington may well be better suited for shooting clay targets and such. For me the shotgun's sole purpose is to deliver an enormous slug of lead very quickly. Whether it will last 100k rounds shooting for fun is totally irrelevant.
Really? I had one breakage from landing on rocks, but the safety still functioned even then and it was a very easy fix. I've never seen a Mossberg safety "fly off," and I've pumped the most powerful 12 ga. slugs made through it over and over again. The recoil from the high end Brenneke magnums is intense, and if the thing was going to fall apart it would have.
If they could make an 870 in stainless with a tang safety and a slugster barrel I might go with one. Otherwise I'll stick to the humble Mossy Swede.
- Status
