Why doesn't the US issue Mk. 262 en masse?

[Nolo]

The more I do research into fragmenting bullets, the more I realize that, while not perfect, the Mk. 262 does a pretty darn good job at what it's trying to do.
It also requires zero changes to the current platform to use. It even has effectiveness as short range out of the M4 Carbine.
Now, I know the Mk. 262 is an expensive round to make, being match, but why doesn't the US create a more production-friendly version and then issue it on large scale? It seems like a natural thing to do to increase the effectiveness of the 5.56 round.
Is it just politics? 'Cause I hate politics...

 

[TexasRifleman]

It's frigging expensive no matter how you try it.

And if you believe the statistics they show that, and I'm going off memory here so I might be a little off, 80% or so of small arms combat fire does not hit it's intended target.

That's why the guys that DO hit their target a high percentage of the time are using the good stuff.

It's not that the other troops deserve less or are not as good, it's just that small arms fire is not effective for much more than keeping heads down in many cases and you don't need high end ammo for that.

All purely speculation on my part, I have no idea. Personally I wish they WOULD make the stuff the standard, it would drive the component prices down where we could all afford it

 

[Nolo]

It's frigging expensive.

Read the post, TR.
I'm talking about a reduced-cost version in particular. I don't see why you couldn't make a Mk. 262 variant the same cost as the M855. You'd lose accuracy, but I don't think you'd lose terminal ballistics and range.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I'm talking about a reduced-cost version in particular.

If you make a $50,000 Mercedes that costs $20,000 is it still the same Mercedes?

From what I understand about making the OTM bullet it is simply tons more time consuming than an FMJ no matter how many of them you make. It's always going to cost quite a bit more. If you get it too cheap then you end up with what we have now, so where is that middle ground?

Like I say, I'm just guessing here.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Mk 262 gives up barrier penetration compared to M855, which isn't a big strength of 5.56mm to begin with.

However, the real reason is probably twofold:

A) It costs about 200% more per round than green tip.
B) Green tip is much more broken on the internet than it is in the real world.

 

[Nolo]

If you make a $50,000 Mercedes that costs $20,000 is it still the same Mercedes?

If you cut costs in the stupid areas, like leather interior and brand label, then for what I'm concerned with, yes.
Mk. 262, even in a cheaper version, would probably be more expensive, but I bet we could get that 200% price increase down to something like 120%.
If OTM is inherently more expensive, then I think I understand. But I don't have any evidence saying it is.
By the way, of course you can. It's called a Mustang.

B) Green tip is much more broken on the internet than it is in the real world.

I'm not sure I understand this statement. Are you saying that the military brass is paying attention only to the Internet? Not saying it's impossible, just wondering what exactly your point is.

 

[TimboKhan]

He is saying that real-world green-tip performance is better than internet warriors would have you believe, a statement I concur with.

 

[Nolo]

Oh, I see.
For further reference, the word "broken", in gaming, means that something is so powerful that it makes a game unfun.
So saying that M855 is more broken on the Internet means it's better on the Internet. Which, if you reference Call Of Duty 4, is a true statement.
M855, as far as the data I've collected, is fine out of a long rifle (16" and up, best as I can figure it). It suffers in the M4 Carbine.
Because the Mk. 262 has such a low fragmentation threshold (2050 fps. No, that's not a typo.), it should work fine out of an M4.

 

[Tony Williams]

I read at least a year ago that the US Army wanted a cheaper version of the MK 262 to be developed, but I've heard nothing since. Its performance is clearly better than the M855 - including after penetrating some types of barrier (but not armour).

 

[TimboKhan]

For further reference, the word "broken", in gaming, means that something is so powerful that it makes a game unfun.

Dude, you and me and maybe 5 other gamers on THR are aware of that particular term, although I always appreciate when my game nerdiness comes in handy.

 

[BattleChimp Potemkin]

Even my handloaded replicas run about 10 bucks a 20 (thats using the cannelured Match Kings). My cheap ones using the PRVI 75gr. OTMs are still about 7 bucks a 20. 55 gr. and 62 gr (SS-109 pull downs) run about 4-4.50 a box handloaded. Its just simple mathematics. (I also factor in all costs, even my tumbling media and "machinery" costs into the equation )

With the amount of ammunition that is spent by folks overseas, the costs would seriously be staggering (but then again, we already have a run away military budget, I seriously wouldnt mind spending more to get them more effective rounds).

M855 is better on armor on farther distances, but closer up, it has been found to penetrate roughly the same. I cant remember where I saw this. Heck, the MK262 is better against autoglass than the M855 (same situation, saw this I think on ARFCOM).

Not too sure about using video game references to describe ammo...

 

[Onmilo]

When you have six billion rounds of M855 on hand and the wonderful government has passed a law that says you cannot sell that ammunition on the commercial or global market so, you can either give it away to "friendly nations" or you can destroy it and sell the refuse as scrap, then your alternative is to use what you have and not be too hasty in agreeing to a brand new form of ammunition to cloud up an already murky logistical clusterf***.

 

[HorseSoldier]

When you have six billion rounds of M855 on hand and the wonderful government has passed a law that says you cannot sell that ammunition on the commercial or global market so, you can either give it away to "friendly nations" or you can destroy it and sell the refuse as scrap, then your alternative is to use what you have and not be too hasty in agreeing to a brand new form of ammunition to cloud up an already murky logistical clusterf***.

I don't claim to know how ammunition is managed up at the national and/or echelons above reality level, but I'd think we'd burn up the older stuff first, in terms of training. I deal with a lot of 5.56mm ammo every year, and don't see anything with headstamps more than a couple years old anymore. (Compared to other stuff like loose 50 cal API from the 1940s, or 45 ACP and 7.62mm on stripper clips from the 1980s.)

That would make me think we're even turning over whatever SHTF national level stocks we keep for a rainy day at a pretty good clip, too. If we switched over to production of nothing but Mk 262 (or a conventionally jacketed 77 grain round or whatever) today, I think we'd burn through all the green tip in the inventory, between combat operations and training, within two or three years.

Even my handloaded replicas run about 10 bucks a 20 (thats using the cannelured Match Kings). My cheap ones using the PRVI 75gr. OTMs are still about 7 bucks a 20. 55 gr. and 62 gr (SS-109 pull downs) run about 4-4.50 a box handloaded. Its just simple mathematics. (I also factor in all costs, even my tumbling media and "machinery" costs into the equation )

I may be wrong -- it's been a while since I looked up the hard numbers -- but my recollection is that green tip runs the government about $0.25/round, while Mk 262 runs $0.53/round.

 

[Onmilo]

I know for everything that gets burned up a specific amount is ordered to replace the stocks.
I know that we also maintain strategic war reserves the likes of which would absolutely boggle you if you haven't seen them in person, I have on three occasions and at three different locations.

I know that the Mk262 may be priced twice the amount per cartridge as M855, that price structure would change and quickly if massive quantities were on order or in the works.

The Military is still wanting to perfect the "Green Bullet" idea, I guess people in that know got scared with all the global whining about depleted uranium ammunition.

I a pretty certain the shift to an even heavier bullet cartridge for the M16 rifle family is in the works, it is just a matter of time and logistics.

At the unit level it may be hard to understand that billions of cartridges are expended every year just in training so your two to four year complete expenditure of remaining stocks is not beyond the realm of possibility but the question still remains unanswered as to whether anyone with the authority to do so has made recommendation for complete replacement of the M855 cartridge with a better alternative, yet,,,,,,,,

I would like to hope that decision is 'in the works'.

 

[Nolo]

Dude, you and me and maybe 5 other gamers on THR are aware of that particular term, although I always appreciate when my game nerdiness comes in handy.

I wasn't talking about you. It seemed that HorseSoldier was using it incorrectly. If you look at the sentence:

B) Green tip is much more broken on the internet than it is in the real world.

And you use a synonym for "broken", say, "powerful":
"Green tip is much more powerful on the Internet than it is in the real world"
Which would imply that M855 ammo is lacking in the real world, which would support issuing a simplified Mk. 262 en masse, rather than being a reason against.
Hence why I think he was using the word incorrectly.
It's all just grammar and semantics, but sometimes that's important.

Not too sure about using video game references to describe ammo...

I was using it as a reference to HorseSoldier's statement, which I believe was a mis-statement. It had no bearing on the real world. Why is it that whenever videogames get mentioned, there's this knee-jerk reaction to debase the person bringing it up, no matter how they are using them. If you look into my statement, you will realize that I mean that M855 is far more powerful in some videogames (COD4 was the one I referenced, it uses the M16A3 with grenade launcher) than it should be (the M16A3 in COD4 being more powerful than an M14 oftentimes).

When you have six billion rounds of M855 on hand and the wonderful government has passed a law that says you cannot sell that ammunition on the commercial or global market so, you can either give it away to "friendly nations" or you can destroy it and sell the refuse as scrap, then your alternative is to use what you have and not be too hasty in agreeing to a brand new form of ammunition to cloud up an already murky logistical clusterf***.

Great. So it is politics. Why don't we just stop abiding by international law?
Wait, how in the world would having both M855 and Mk. 262 in the same ammo pool create logistics problems? They're entirely interchangeable.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Wait, how in the world would having both M855 and Mk. 262 in the same ammo pool create logistics problems? They're entirely interchangeable.

Ever worked in logistics? ANY difference between 2 items causes endless supply chain nightmares, even if they are interchangeable.
Different suppliers, part numbers, packaging possibly, weight per pallet; there's a zillion things that can come into it.

You have to remember that all this ammo and material doesn't just magically appear in a soldiers kit, there are supply chain issues that would make your head spin and they are not going away.

That is a very real issue to keep in mind when you start talking about making changes when you have troops in combat.

 

[mr.trooper]

If you make a $50,000 Mercedes that costs $20,000 is it still the same Mercedes?

Minus the heated seats and headlight wipers? yes.

 

[Nolo]

Ever worked in logistics?

Being 17, no, I have not.

ANY difference

But why do you need to treat them like there's a difference? Why not say, oh, this is lot #572392 and this is lot #572393, and they just happen to be different cartridges, but since they can be fired from the same barrels, weigh the same, fit in the same magazines, use the same case heads and all in all are completely interchangeable, we really don't care that they're any different.
Then when you've used up all the M855, you are completely on Mk. 262(S) and no one knows the difference, except that the enemy soldiers seem to be dropping faster now.
I have never worked logistics, but I also can't think of a good reason why this would create complications.
Thanks Mr. Trooper.

 

[hksw]

Cripes. When I quickly read the title I though it said Me 262.

 

[Nolo]

Cripes. When I quickly read the title I though it said Me 262.

What a beautiful piece of engineering... I do so love the Me. 262.

 

[kcmarine]

I've always wondered if the guys here on the internet would be willing to stand out at 200 yards and have the rounds that are so much "less effective" slung at them at over 3,000 feet per second.

Personally, I don't think it matters a huge amount whether the standard issue is M855 or Mk. 262. The difference for the individual soldier is much less than it is for the guys like us, who go to carbine classes every so often. If we're ever confronted with the situation of having to defend ourselves, it's probably going to be one or two people shooting at looters (possibly armed) after a natural disaster. Stopping power matters most then, because other than your partner (who may not be there), you have no one else to rely on for backup, and your enemy is going to be tired, in despair, and worst of all, desperate.

Now, imagine you're a soldier or Marine in the sandbox. You've got the best logistics of any military in the world backing you up. You've got your squad with you. You've got the best training that any military in the world could offer. Furthermore, your enemy is made up mainly of religious extremists, who have mostly Soviet-era weapons, and little real training. Their logistics train stops at the can of beans they're cooking over their camp fire, the ammo they dug out of a dirty cache in the ground, and maybe a few laundered American dollars a warlord paid them for their effort.

More often than not, when gunfire is exchanged between US forces and militants, the militants get their asses handed to them, and the US forces are mistook for the wrath of God. The men and women out there now are the most effective in the world at what they do. I doubt that the M855 is the drag on them that we portray it to be.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Hence why I think he was using the word incorrectly.
It's all just grammar and semantics, but sometimes that's important.

Strange to have what I thought was a pretty simple sentence become the subject of such debate.

My point was that problems with green tip ammo are greatly exaggerated on the internet (like pretty much everything else on the internet). Did not know I was somehow suggesting the exact opposite of what I thought I said, but then my computer-game-speak is pretty minimal (though the use in computer games makes sense as it was explained).

Mk. 262, even in a cheaper version, would probably be more expensive, but I bet we could get that 200% price increase down to something like 120%.
If OTM is inherently more expensive, then I think I understand. But I don't have any evidence saying it is.

I don't know if OTM is inherently more expensive, either. A big chunk of the cost of the ammunition is the precision required to meet a tighter accuracy spec. If they dropped the requirements down to match what M855 delivers anyway, price would come down right there, though I don't have a clue how much. When it's all said and done, I don't know if 77 grain has to cost more than 62 grain -- lead isn't cheap these days, so the heavier bullet would be inherently a bit more expensive, but 62 grain requires extra manufacturing to get the lead/steel composite construction.

 

[Nolo]

over 3,000 feet per second

Whoah! Since when did M855 get to 3,000 fps? Last time I heard, it was at 2750 fps. Big difference.
As for your argument, it's a fallacy. I don't like getting hit with paintballs when the speedballers have cranked them up to 400 fps. Does that mean the US military should switch to .68 caliber paintballs in all their combat weapons?
Don't pull that fallacy on me. It's a waste of bandwidth.

More often than not, when gunfire is exchanged between US forces and militants, the militants get their asses handed to them, and the US forces are mistook for the wrath of God. The men and women out there now are the most effective in the world at what they do. I doubt that the M855 is the drag on them that we portray it to be.

It's not a crux of combat power. But what I do is think about such problems. So I'm trying to solve them. Stop telling me what problems I should be thinking about. I'm a munitions guy, thus, if the munitions are not perfect, I get irked.

 

[Nolo]

Strange to have what I thought was a pretty simple sentence become the subject of such debate.

I'm a word guy, as well as a munitions guy. And I get off on tangents really easily.
That's what I thought you were trying to say, and I admit, it took quite a while for me to get what people meant by "broken" as well. It's something that will "break the game", meaning the game no longer is fun with the inclusion of that part.

 

[Titus]

Stop telling me what problems I should be thinking about. I'm a munitions guy, thus, if the munitions are not perfect, I get irked.

So what are you asking us for?