Most police dept.s tend to use 4" long barrelled pistols don't they? Assumed it is because the military needed longest barrell for accuracy that they could comfortably carry, which they decided was 5", whereas the police needed the longest barrell for accuracy that they could draw the quickest, which was 4". Can anybody shed light on the rationale behind these two different barrell lengths for Military vs Police pistols?
Why Don't Police Dept. Use 5" Barrelled Pistols Like the Military?
- Thread starter scotjute
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WardenWolf
member
A shorter gun is harder for an attacker to gain control over.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Nothing to do with accuracy, power, weapons retention, or speed of draw.
It has way more to do with setting in a squad car for most of an 8 hour shift, and having a longer gun riding up and poking you in the ribs then any other reason.
The military is on their feet more, and use completely different holsters, web-gear, and carry then the cops.
Years ago, motorcycle cops often carried 6" revovlvers, and the squad-car guys carried 4", for that reason alone.
rcmodel
It has way more to do with setting in a squad car for most of an 8 hour shift, and having a longer gun riding up and poking you in the ribs then any other reason.
The military is on their feet more, and use completely different holsters, web-gear, and carry then the cops.
Years ago, motorcycle cops often carried 6" revovlvers, and the squad-car guys carried 4", for that reason alone.
rcmodel
Other than revolvers where the 4" barrel is common as its a true 4" of barrel while semi auto's include the chamber in their length, most police departments issue full sized semi automatics to uniformed police officers and compacts to detectives and plain clothes officers. These pistols are the same size or even model carried by the military. Glock 17/22 (9mm/40), Beretta 92/96, Sig P220, P226, etc.
mljdeckard
Member
Exactly. Most of the advances in pistol technology to make pistols that are powerful, effective, and perfectly capable in SMALLER sizes are a response to cops who have to carry them around for a minimum of 40 hours a week.
(I still never carry anything other than full-sized, steel-framed autos.)
(I still never carry anything other than full-sized, steel-framed autos.)
RUT
Member
>>It has way more to do with setting in a squad car for most of an 8 hour shift, and having a longer gun riding up and poking you in the ribs then any other reason.<<
Ditto that....
Ditto that....
Many larger PDs advocate "one handgun for everything". Your duty gun is also your off duty gun. Simplifies training and saves money when you only qualify with one handgun. You can convince someone they can carry a Glock 19 all the time vs a Glock 17. There's really not a lot of difference but many think otherwise.
The Beretta was adopted by the military because it underbid Sig Sauer for the contract. The Sig P226 could have just as easily been adopted by the Military and it has a 4.4" barrel. The US Navy SEALs adopted the Sig P228 which has a 3.9" barrel. Increased barrel length does not improve accuracy. Only the last inch of barrel determines accuracy. This is why some shooters can shoot playing cards at 100yrds with a snub nosed revolver while a Beretta wouldn't even come close. Plus, the .45acp needs a longer barrel to get the best terminal effects benefits, while the 9mm, .40S&W, and .357sig were designed around the 4" barrel and are optimized for it. You do get a "slight" sight radius advantage with the longer slide allowing the shooter to better estimate the precision of their sight alignment, but the disadvantage is slower sight alignment speed. Usually the longer slide is of no benefit if your front sight post is the same size as smaller pistol models. Most militaries around the world actually use pistols with barrel lengths between 3.8-4.5".
Most pistols with a 4" barrel have a better balance to them, are more comfortable to carry on the hip, shoved in your waistline, or in a shoulder rig. There is really no measurable and clear advantage to using a 5" barrel auto pistol in 9mm, .40S&W, or .357sig......but there are advantages in using a 4" barrel and slide.
Mainsail
Member
Why do you think a 5" long barrel would be any more accurate than 4" one?
machinecraig
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I think by accuracy he means, "longer sight radius", which does help the user achieve greater accuracy.
Funderb
Member
there is a difference between accuracy and precision.
"Why do you think a 5" long barrel would be any more accurate than 4" one?"
My assumption was that was what the Army decided. Both the 1911 and their current pistol have 5" barrells, there has to be a reason for that. I don't if they chose it for increased accuracy, more power, that's what the bidder proposed, sheer chance, etc. While the longer barrell may not mean more accuracy to the "gun", it usually means more accuracy to the shooter with a longer sight radius.
By the same token, most police revolvers had 4" barrells and I assume the autos they now use followed suit. From the replies so far, it seems the police generally select guns with ~4" barrells because they carry better and are better balanced. Makes sense to me.
IF there's no advantage to 5" barrell, then why has our military chosen it twice for their standard pistols?
My assumption was that was what the Army decided. Both the 1911 and their current pistol have 5" barrells, there has to be a reason for that. I don't if they chose it for increased accuracy, more power, that's what the bidder proposed, sheer chance, etc. While the longer barrell may not mean more accuracy to the "gun", it usually means more accuracy to the shooter with a longer sight radius.
By the same token, most police revolvers had 4" barrells and I assume the autos they now use followed suit. From the replies so far, it seems the police generally select guns with ~4" barrells because they carry better and are better balanced. Makes sense to me.
IF there's no advantage to 5" barrell, then why has our military chosen it twice for their standard pistols?
Since a pistol in the military is secondary and more symbolic than anything, I really don't think the Military cares a bean about the accuracy difference between a 4 inch and a 5 inch barrel, In fact I know they don't:banghead:
I really don't think the Military cares a bean about the accuracy difference between a 4 inch and a 5 inch barrel,
I agree. I'm sure there were accurcay requirements in the specs during pistol trials and the miliatry didn't care if they were met with a 5" or a 1" barrel.
I agree. I'm sure there were accurcay requirements in the specs during pistol trials and the miliatry didn't care if they were met with a 5" or a 1" barrel.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Makes a better club when you run out of ammo?
Who knows?
But I imagine one reason is the longer barreled guns passed the reliability tests a little easier then the shorter ones.
rcmodel
That's one reason, and a good one.
As for the police. Years ago when patrolmen walked a beat the 5" length was popular on both Colt and Smith & Wesson revolvers. It made for a well- balanced gun. But when patrol cars came into the picture where one spent most of they're time sitting, it didn't take long for the shorter 4" length to take over.
The police may choose their guns because of barrel length but I doubt it was much of a factor with the military. When the Beretta was adopted there were several guns tested with shorter barrels. I doubt the longer barrel of the Beretta was a factor.
CoRoMo
Member
Is S.W.A.T. held back with the same restrictions as patrol officers when it comes to the handguns they can/can't use?
sniper5
Member
I remember back in the day when the CHP started carrying the S&W autos in the high ride holsters. I was used to seeing .357s in lower mounted leather. My first reaction was "where's the rest of the pistol?"
The Lone Haranguer
Member
Sometimes the same gun needs to be used by both uniformed and plainclothes officers, or the same gun used as both on- and off-duty.
DarkSoldier
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CoRoMo,
Depends on the department. Years ago, when most PDs used revolvers, many let SWAT team members carry an auto loader. Others restricted the operators to what ever gun was uniform issue.
A Royal Marine Patrol Rifle instructor once told me that the British SAS used to use the Browning 9MM simply because it was already in their inventory. A lot of PDs did the same.
With the heavy caliber High Cap semi-auto platforms available to street cops today, the issue uniform patrol gun is often a good choice for SWAT anyway. Our issue patrol handgun was a Smith DOA 4586 in .45 ACP with night sights and it served my SWAT team well. The issue gun now is a Glock 22 in .40 and that is now the pistol used for all patrol and special operations.
Just my observations.
Respectfully,
DarkSoldier
Depends on the department. Years ago, when most PDs used revolvers, many let SWAT team members carry an auto loader. Others restricted the operators to what ever gun was uniform issue.
A Royal Marine Patrol Rifle instructor once told me that the British SAS used to use the Browning 9MM simply because it was already in their inventory. A lot of PDs did the same.
With the heavy caliber High Cap semi-auto platforms available to street cops today, the issue uniform patrol gun is often a good choice for SWAT anyway. Our issue patrol handgun was a Smith DOA 4586 in .45 ACP with night sights and it served my SWAT team well. The issue gun now is a Glock 22 in .40 and that is now the pistol used for all patrol and special operations.
Just my observations.
Respectfully,
DarkSoldier
It came that way
SCOTJUTE,
If I remember right, the 4.9 inch barrel on the BERETTA 92 was the standard model when it was introduced and submitted in 1980.
The shorter 4.3 inch barrel did not come out till after the tests were already started and had a 13 round magazine which would have put them at a disavantage in the competition.
The shorter grip might also be a problem for large handed shooters.
The shorter 4.3 inch barreled CENTURION model which combines the 15 round magazine and full size grip with a COMPACT length barrel did not come out till the 1990's.
All of the guns submitted for the tests were full size models. SIG had the 226 with a 4.4 inch barrel and SMITH&WESSON had 4 inch barrels as that was what they came with.
The Spanish STAR 28 was submitted and had a longer that 4 inch barrel.
At the time, there were not that many large capacity, double action 9m.m. pistols at that time.
When the BERETTA was introduced, only SMITH&WESSON with the model 59 which had already proven unreliable and H&K with the machine pistol based MP70 fit this description. The MP70, buy the way was a reliable gun as far as I know, but had a horrible double action only trigger design.
The BERETTA was by far the best design in the high capacity, double action class.
I do not remember any company submitting a compact model. In fact, I do not remember any company making a compact model that had a 15 round magazine. The large capacity magazine was a requirement.
Jim
SCOTJUTE,
If I remember right, the 4.9 inch barrel on the BERETTA 92 was the standard model when it was introduced and submitted in 1980.
The shorter 4.3 inch barrel did not come out till after the tests were already started and had a 13 round magazine which would have put them at a disavantage in the competition.
The shorter grip might also be a problem for large handed shooters.
The shorter 4.3 inch barreled CENTURION model which combines the 15 round magazine and full size grip with a COMPACT length barrel did not come out till the 1990's.
All of the guns submitted for the tests were full size models. SIG had the 226 with a 4.4 inch barrel and SMITH&WESSON had 4 inch barrels as that was what they came with.
The Spanish STAR 28 was submitted and had a longer that 4 inch barrel.
At the time, there were not that many large capacity, double action 9m.m. pistols at that time.
When the BERETTA was introduced, only SMITH&WESSON with the model 59 which had already proven unreliable and H&K with the machine pistol based MP70 fit this description. The MP70, buy the way was a reliable gun as far as I know, but had a horrible double action only trigger design.
The BERETTA was by far the best design in the high capacity, double action class.
I do not remember any company submitting a compact model. In fact, I do not remember any company making a compact model that had a 15 round magazine. The large capacity magazine was a requirement.
Jim
Detroit Police used to issue five inch Model 10 S&W revolvers.
Georgia State Highway patrol was issuing five inch S&W N frames in .45 Colt.
Many Tactical Response Teams use Glock 34/35 pistols or 1911 pistols or Beretta 92 pistols, all with five inch barrels.
I am sure there are others, five inch pistols are not as uncommon as you might think.
Georgia State Highway patrol was issuing five inch S&W N frames in .45 Colt.
Many Tactical Response Teams use Glock 34/35 pistols or 1911 pistols or Beretta 92 pistols, all with five inch barrels.
I am sure there are others, five inch pistols are not as uncommon as you might think.
Coyote Hunter
Member
I had carried a 4" model 19, then a 4" model 66, then a 4" model 659, then a monster of a model 645 in 5". When I finally retired, I was carring a glock model 19 both on and off duty. It was a great gun to live with 24 hours a day because of the barrel length and it was just as accurate as the full size glocks for me, I have smaller hands and I used an optional grip extending mag for duty and the reqular mags for off duty and colcealment.
By the way, setting in a patrol car for 8 or more hours may have not been the "technical" reason, but it was MY reason, comfort. Just the same as when I was on night shift, I wore the black leather Rebock instead of the patent leather shoes that were issued, comfort.
By the way, setting in a patrol car for 8 or more hours may have not been the "technical" reason, but it was MY reason, comfort. Just the same as when I was on night shift, I wore the black leather Rebock instead of the patent leather shoes that were issued, comfort.
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