Why hasn't the Hi Power gone the way of the 1911?

[WVsig]

JMB wished for a high capacity pistol that would solve the problems of the 1911 that he fathered, hense the P-35. However, he died in 1926 long before he even completed the first design. That was completed by his chief designer, a Belgian, whose name I could never pronunce, let alone remember. Unfortunately, he (the Belgian) never got so much as a "thank you". The very beautiful BHP P-35, for the year of production, was arguably the most prolific pistol in the world, manufactured throughout Europe and the middle East. The U.S. was married to the 1911 so why would we revisit the BHP? A simple google search would reveal the number of countries that had the P-35 as standard issue.

Best.

The Hi Power was a contract gun just like the 1911. If they had asked JMB to make a gun with 2 barrels he would have done it. If they wanted it to be a single shot breech loader he would have done that. LOL That is the nature of a contract gun. It was not an attempt by JMB to correct the "problems" of the 1911. It was designed to the specs of the French contract which it did not win.

You are 100% correct that JMB died prior to its completion. Dieudonné Saive completed the gun. It is as much Saive's design as JMBs. It was the last major pistol project JMB worked on. You can see before JMBs death and the guns which became the Hi Power.

To the OP I think that the days of a all steel 13-15+1 round 9mm has passed. In the world of tactical plastic it is often looked over. I love them but I understand why people pass them over. The trigger is also an issue. For a out of the box trigger it is avg. It is often too heavy and requires some cleaning up before is really sings. I like mine between 5 and 7 lbs depending on the roll of the gun. It will never be a 1911 trigger but a clean crisp consistent 6lbs BHP is a great thing IMHO.

There have been quite a few clones. The FM, Acurus, Charles Daly & FEG etc... none have ever been big sellers here in the US. Personally I think the gun which would sell would be a alloy Hi Power. I would love to see them bring back this configuration. There are a limited number of these which were made for European Police. Some of which have been imported here. Even better would be an option for an alloy gun with a commander slide like FM used to make.

 

[Sergei Mosin]

Dieudonné Saive is the name you're looking for.

9mm and .45 ACP handguns aren't in the same class, and for a long time the 1911 was just about the only game in town when it came to .45 autoloaders, while the Hi Power had plenty of competition from other 9mm pistols (including the 1911.) If you wanted a .45, you bought a 1911, but if you wanted a 9mm you bought a Hi Power...or a SIG...or a Smith...or a 1911. On top of that, for a long time the .45 ACP cartridge was much more popular than the 9mm in the USA. By the time the 9mm really took off here, there were even more choices - Berettas and Glocks and CZs and more. Top it off with a price point that's in SIG territory and the Hi Power's niche is even smaller.

The first handgun I ever fired was a friend's Mark III Hi Power. Beautiful gun. I have a nice old Inglis Hi Power, a collector piece I've never fired, and I keep telling myself I need a shooter-grade Hi Power of my own but I never have gotten around to it. One of these days...

 

[WVsig]

My view: The High Power is butt ugly. It is 9mm. The CZ75 is a pretty close clone except for DA trigger.

The CZ75 is not a Hi Power clone. There are similarities but the CZ is not based on the BHP design. Take apart a CZ and a BHP trigger and you can see the difference.

 

[TennJed]

Simple.

Glocks last well over 100,000 rounds. P-35s don't.
Glocks have very few parts failures over 100,000 rounds. P-35s don't.
Glocks take corrosion very well. P-35s don't.
Glocks don't bite the hand that feeds them (hammer bite.) P-35s sure do!
Glocks take +p+ all day. P-35's don't.

And hey, I do have a soft spot for the HP.

Deaf

Ok, but I am not sure what any of that has to do with my question. There are plenty of guns that are just as good (or better) than Glocks. Glock has nothing to do with my question / point.

There have been lots of good answers though, good points made. I am just curious as it seems that since Hi Power wins the "most fun to shoot 9mm" contest you would see more clones.

Lots of companies make 1911s
A few companies make SAA clones
A few companies make CZ clones
A few companies make PPK clones (or close to)

Heck Taurus has cloned every gun on earth at one time or another, surprised they have not made a PT-Hi-Power (with huge rollmarks of course)

 

[WVsig]

Its a numbers game... there are so many surplus BHPs in the market place already are people going to pay $500 to $600 for a nice clone or $500 to $600 for the real deal used?

Personally I buy used all day long.

 

[YZ]

I don't think it was the Glock that made the HP obsolete. Beginning with the P38 and up, its direct competition was the DA/SA pistol, including the CZ and other derivatives. Glock took a market share from all of them.

 

[tomrkba]

It is a good design, but the trigger pull leaves something to be desired and is not readily improvable. Also, the safety is difficult for most people to release during the draw.

HUH?

The safety on the Browning MK III is just fine: perfectly placed and easy to use. A gunsmith can tune the trigger and remove the magazine disconnect. I'd really like to see a "carry ready" gun from them, but they're not interested.

The real problem is that Browning is trying to kill it off. They cranked the price up to $950 or so and make acquiring factory magazines extremely difficult (and expensive).

 

[tarosean]

Ok, but I am not sure what any of that has to do with my question. There are plenty of guns that are just as good (or better) than Glocks. Glock has nothing to do with my question / point.

I'm thinking he/she spent too much time at the kool aid trough

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The Hi-Power is perfectly capable of having a very nice trigger, though it will always have a soft reset. However, for some reason FN insists on manufacturing them with these ridiculous 8-10lb single action triggers.

 

[newfalguy101]

JMB wished for a high capacity pistol that would solve the problems of the 1911 that he fathered, hense the P-35. However, he died in 1926 long before he even completed the first design

Not exactly, Browning DID in fact finish and patent the original BHP pistol, however, due to his death Suave' ( ?) finished the High cap portion of the design, or rather re-designed the grip to accept a high cap at the request of some military. France maybe????

 

[Pilot]

Simple.

Glocks last well over 100,000 rounds. P-35s don't.
How do you know have you tested one?

Glocks have very few parts failures over 100,000 rounds. P-35s don't.
What study did this come from?

Glocks take corrosion very well. P-35s don't.
Hmmm, so we leave pistols in water now. My MK III factory Silver Chrome Hi Power never corrodes.

Glocks don't bite the hand that feeds them (hammer bite.) P-35s sure do!
The current iteration of the BHP, the MK III does not bite, and neither did the MK II before it. If they did a simple hammer swap or bob would fix it. You have fat hands?

Glocks take +p+ all day. P-35's don't.
MK III Hi Powers do.

And hey, I do have a soft spot for the HP.
Maybe when you are looking in the mirror with your new 511's.

Lots of fail in this post.

 

[Vonderek]

A couple of images of Browning's patent application for his "Grande Puissance".

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The same French Army contract that spawned the Hi-Power also spawned the predecessor to the SIG P-210, another underappreciated 9mm. As someone pointed out, many of the Hi-Power features were an attempt to meet contract requirements and/or design around earlier JMB patents. The distinctive slide profile was done to meet weight requirements - though nowadays some of the clones dispense with that modification.

 

[Jim Watson]

Mr Browning designed a gun for FN on a French RFP. They built a few of these, known as the GR (Grand Rendement) but the French turned it down.

Mr Browning passed away and Saive kept tinkering with the design. As Colt/Browning patents expired, Saive plowed them back in for FN. By the time he had a recognizable GP (Grand Puissance, High Power) the NY stock market crashed, leading in The Great Depression and nobody was rearming. It took FN until 1935 to sell the model, to the home market of the Belgian army.

About that time the French adopted their 1935, with Browning tilt barrel lockup and Petter's package lockwork.

Too bad nobody remembered the Grand Browning.
Much earlier, FN had prototyped a gun on the 1911 action in a proprietary 9.65mm cartridge.
Could just as easily have been 9mm P.
Why didn't they produce it?
No customers?
Colt would not license it? They had shared production of Browning's other designs, with "Gentlemen's Agreements" to divide up the world market. Maybe the US Army had something to say.
A neat gun, probably very similar to the 9.8mm Colt.


Oh, by the way, there is a US entrepreneur setting out to build a BHP pattern gun, based somewhat on the beefed up .40 cal guns.

 

[Blueduck]

They bought 25,000 glocks and have 250,000 soldiers. I'm not sure I would call it abandoning...

When you consider that not 10% of soldiers are issued a pistol, well pretty much

 

[YZ]

Someone has argued that a gunsmith can improve the HP trigger. That makes it a great vintage pistol perhaps. Modern semi-autos are judged by how they are out of the box.

 

[leadcounsel]

I talked briefly above my thoughts on why the BHP is not more popular...

I should mention that in addition to having owned one personally for awhile, I also carried one as a sidearm on my 2nd deployment, when we were short M9s.

Here's a picture of the BHP I was issued, and a picture of me (right side of photo) with the BHP on my hip in an OWB holster, and another Soldier out exploring the area on some downtime... my guess is that this BHP was 'procured locally.'

 

[Deaf Smith]

Glocks last well over 100,000 rounds. P-35s don't.
How do you know have you tested one? ----------- Yes. I wore out a P-35 in IPSC.

Glocks have very few parts failures over 100,000 rounds. P-35s don't.
What study did this come from? ---------- This is very well known. Like saying it rains. One of the reasons most countries have gone away from P-35s. Even the UK.

Glocks take corrosion very well. P-35s don't.
Hmmm, so we leave pistols in water now. My MK III factory Silver Chrome Hi Power never corrodes. ------ as a combat arm, corrosion resistance is a must.
Glock's finish is more corrosion resistant than stainless steel.

Glocks don't bite the hand that feeds them (hammer bite.) P-35s sure do!
The current iteration of the BHP, the MK III does not bite, and neither did the MK II before it. If they did a simple hammer swap or bob would fix it. You have fat hands?
--------- P-35s are known as flesh biters. I have the MK III and one still gets a nip now and then when drawing fast. And no, I have small hands.

Glocks take +p+ all day. P-35's don't.
MK III Hi Powers do. -------------------- Oh, no they won't. Not in the quantities a Glock will

Easy.

 

[Matno]

About 20 years ago, I had a Smith and Wesson 5904. One day I went to the range with some friends for a "comparison" shoot. In addition to my S&W, we had a Hi Power, Glock 17, and a Sig P226. Went through a lot of rounds that day, and we all agreed that the Sig was the most comfortable and easy to control, the Glock was easy to control (especially for double taps) but perceived recoil was a lot stiffer, the S&W was very soft to shoot but had way too much muzzle flip and a really lousy trigger (smooth DA but WAY too long), and the Hi Power was quite a bit heavier but still had a sharp recoil AND noticeable muzzle flip. Also didn't like the trigger. We unanimously ranked them in that order, and I immediately sold the Smith and bought a Sig. Been happy with it ever since.

I like the hi power from a historical perspective, and I think it looks really cool, but shooting one is just not nearly as nice as a lot of other guns on the market today.

 

[TestPilot]

The reason, I believe is pretty simple.

There was not much marketing effort when the pistol was not manufactured in U.S.

By the time it was marketed in U.S. it was too late. By then, it was competing with the new generation of "wonder nines."

It's an okay pistol for its time, but nothing much to rave about in the time when it was 20~30 years after its appearance either.

 

[VAPOPO]

I love the look of the P35 hate everything else about it. To me it points like a brick. Not quite high point brick but not to far off. I bought one of the Argentine models to see if I liked the pistol with the intent of finding a solid older browning if I did. Figured $200 for the FM was a pretty good deal. It was I sold it for $300 and never looked back. I'll stick with my 1911, CZ's and SIG 220 Carry. I have 3X sized hands and it bit me like a pit bull. The others do not. Oh and the CZ is not a high power clone, more like the bastard child of a SIG 210 and a S&W 59 and I love them.

 

[mljdeckard]

The Charles Daly ones raised my eyebrows.

I would like one, but it has more to do with my being a Browning disciple and wanting to fill out a historical collection than having a good shooter. I would probably put it next to a Luger.

 

[bdb benzino]

I love the look of the P35 hate everything else about it. To me it points like a brick. Not quite high point brick but not to far off.

I'm quite shocked at the number of people saying the P-35 is ugly and points bad, like a lot of you I also like the 1911 and CZ's, but to me the BHP is the pinnacle of ergonomic perfection.
There was even one guy saying it kicks and has bad muzzle flip, where I find it to be one of the quickest & softest shooting 9mm out there.
I had actually overlooked it for a number of years but as soon as I tried one the fit was so natural and it was the easiest gun to be accurate with for me. YMMV

 

[Pilot]

I have CZ's, Sigs, Berettas, HK's, Colts, Rugers, etc. All great pistols. My box stock MK III Hi Power is my most accurate centerfire pistol FOR ME. It is just easy to shoot well, and consistently.

 

[1911Tuner]

The Hi Power was a contract gun just like the 1911. If they had asked JMB to make a gun with 2 barrels he would have done it.

This.

And there weren't any "problems" with either one...1911 or High Power. Both pistols were contracts, and both of them thus had whatever features that were requested by the people who were writing the checks.

And although Saive's finished project did incorporate many of Browning's ideas, Browning not only didn't design the High Power...he never saw one. His contribution was he Grande Rendement, which was shelved shortly before his death in 1926.

I find the High Power quite attractive, and easy to shoot well despite its heavier trigger...which was also likely part of the desiderata...being that its original intent was to be a military sidearm for a country without a strong gun culture. Can't have the conscripts shootin' themselves and their compadres, after all.