Why I don't shoot other peoples reloads...

[tango2echo]

A friend of mine who has been reloading for 30+ years gave me ten rounds of .243 loads that he had loaded. He said that the load was "carefully developed" and shot well until the last two batches. Then his accuracy fell way off and he could not figure out why.

Well, I normally would have refused to even take the rounds, but I did it anyway to avoid hurting his feelings.

Took them home and looked them over. His data was as follows:

.243 win
2.655 COl
CCI 250
Speer 100gr BTSP
Hodgdon Hybrid 100 43.7 gr (MAX)(Compressed)

Looked the load over in a few books and various sources. Plenty hot, but should be ok. Somewhere around 52K CUP and 3115fps. Shown as a max load in some books.

Got out the bullet pulling die and pulled a few after checking the COL. Weighted the powder charge in the first case: 48.7 GRAINS!!! (Had to firmly tap the case just to get powder to start falling out of it. He is still using an RCBS 5-0-2 scale (works fine if you're careful) and I'm betting he had the weight in the wrong groove.

Looks like he shot about 30rds through a Browning A-Bolt with this load. I called him and told him what I found, and strongly suggested he take the gun to a good gunsmith or send it back to Browning, and suggested he be honest with them about what happened.

What do some of you think? How much damage did he do? FWIW, I saw the spent cases from the first 30 rounds he fired. Other than some flattened primers and cratering I didn't see any other signs of over-pressure.

t2e

 

[TimRB]

I doubt that he did any damage to his rifle. Bolt action rifles are tremendously strong. That said, he could have the headspace checked if it made him feel any better. Proof loads can be half again as much as nominal.

Tim

 

[fireman 9731]

I would say that the rifle is fine.

Good thing that you caught the mistake though.

You never can be too careful.

 

[buck460XVR]

If he didn't hafta hammer the bolt open, I'm bettin' his gun will be fine. Goes to show ya, that even after 30 years, one can still make simple, but dangerous mistakes.

 

[fprefect]

5 over max.

If he didn't have to use a mallet to open the bolt to remove a stuck case I would think in all likelihood the rifle didn't sustain any damage, but if he has any concerns a quick trip to a reputable gunsmith should put his mind at ease. But he can be thankful he shot those "mistakes" in a strong bolt action rifle and not a semi-automatic which might not have given him such a large "margin for error".

Along those same lines, even though I have reloaded for over 20 years, I am reluctant to reload ammunition for friends unless they are with me during the entire process to act as an extra set of eyes. That may sound like overkill, but the last thing I want is someone else's injury or even death on my conscience for the rest of my life because one of my "mistakes" exploded in his face. Just because I have yet to make any serious mistakes so far "may" be an indication I'm a safe reloader, but guarantees nothing regarding the future.

F. Prefect

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm guessing the rifle is fine and the accuracy problem is due to either the excessive pressure produced by the over-load or Copper fouling that is probably present from pushing the bullets past what they were designed to do. (or maybe both)

Tell him to buy a new scale and use one of the many great Copper removing products available on the market today.

 

[jjohnson]

Rifle Is PROBABLY Fine.

I have to agree with the other posters - the bolt action is pretty blasted solid,
and even though the pressure must have been way way over spec, if the cases extracted with regular effort, your buddy should say a prayer of thanks to the Patron Saint of Reloaders, St. Pyro.

Myself, I'd have a doubt in the back of my mind and would have a gunsmith have a look at it for headspace and for other signs of over pressure, like galling on the bolt lugs. I had my hands on a bolt action that was obviously ruined by overpressure, and the bolt was nearly impossible to open and close (empty). If the rifle is behaving normally and you don't see anything out of the ordinary like ejected cases with big bulge or ring, I don't think I'd lose sleep over it.

Kudos for you being "on the ball."

 

[jmundy]

My first response to this is... Have either or both scales been checked for accuracy?

It seems like there is a sample size of two that don't agree. If the scales haven't been checked who's to say which one is right. A quick and dirty way to test this would be to use a third scale if one is handy. At least two of three should read close to the same measurement.

The fact that no signs of excessive pressure seems to be present, then maybe your buddy's scale is correct and the one you're using may be off. This load is over max by almost 12%.

This is from the Hodgdon site:

100 GR. SPR BTSP Hodgdon Hybrid 100V .243" 2.650"
40.0 2868 45,400 CUP
43.7C 3100 51,700 CUP

It shows 43.7 as a compressed load and maximum for the cartridge. If this load is already compressed would it even be possible squeeze in another 5 grains of powder?

 

[jjohnson]

Way to go! Great observation!

Right - the idea that maybe one (or both) scales aren't measuring correctly is an important thing to check out. And you can't just check it by weighing something with a "known weight" unless it's one of the "for sure known weight" items that come with some scales. You know, the brass weights that are marked for certain at a given weight.

Long years ago I thought I could do that with a manufactured bullet of 150 grains. Turns out that the entire lot of factory fresh bullets weighed in over 152 grains

Good point, too, about how much powder you can cram into a case as a compressed charge. It does seem that the charge you're mentioning would have to be compressed pretty hard to get it all in, but like you said, you had to help the cartridge out to get the powder loose after you took it apart.

I just love it when a bunch of guys get their brains working together on a forum like this.

 

[tango2echo]

Jmundy, you made an excellent point. I just went and checked my scale against others I have. (RCBS 750, RCBS 1500CM, RCBS 5-0-5) Looks like the ones I have agree. (the 5-0-5 shows a 10th heavier)

Also, I took a couple of .243 cases and threw 43grs 45grs 47grs and 48grs of Hybrid 100. It looks to me like 43grs would not be a compressed charge, even though Hodgdon says it is. However, 48grs would be heavily compressed with the 100gr bullet.

I think checking headspace is a really great idea, as well as a thorough cleaning and defouling. Anyone want to make a stab at the CUP pressure this load would have created?

T2E

 

[Afy]

According to QL 96107 PSI !!!! Velocity should be around 3400 fps.

 

[jmorris]

Goes to show ya, that even after 30 years, one can still make simple, but dangerous mistakes.

Eye sight can change a lot in 30 years too.

43.7
48.7

 

[rcmodel]

Hodgdon 2009 manual shows that bullet & H1000.
Winchester case - WLR primer
Start = 44.0 - 2,876 - 45,700 CUP
Max = 47.0C - 3,000 - 49,800 CUP

48.7 might not have been that far over.
Probably only getting up into .220 Swift / some Belted mag territory pressure wise.
It wouldn't hurt a strong rifle like an A-Bolt, right up to the point the case or primer pocket let go.

As long as the primers didn't fall out of the cases, you were not running enough pressure to even begin to harm the rifle.

rc

 

[Slamfire]

Got out the bullet pulling die and pulled a few after checking the COL. Weighted the powder charge in the first case: 48.7 GRAINS!!! (Had to firmly tap the case just to get powder to start falling out of it. He is still using an RCBS 5-0-2 scale (works fine if you're careful) and I'm betting he had the weight in the wrong groove.


What do some of you think? How much damage did he do? FWIW, I saw the spent cases from the first 30 rounds he fired. Other than some flattened primers and cratering I didn't see any other signs of over-pressure.

Ain't this fun, fun, fun. And it proves that you can have loads that grossly exceed "SAAMI" specs, and not know it.

I would not worry about a thing on the rifle. The brass case is the weak link. Rupture that and all sorts of evil things will happen, parts come flying off, stocks splintering. But if the case stayed intact, and he was not firing thousands of these little mini nucs, his rifle is probably OK.

 

[counterclockwise]

What does the quickload show about barrel length. The H100V is a slow burner. Maybe your friend had a short barrel and was expelling huge fireballs? Hodgdon typically uses 24" test barrels.

H100V is very short (almost spherical) powder. It is not going to offer much in the way of compression, relative to say Varget or H4831.

 

[tango2echo]

UPDATE: Went with the owner of the rifle to the gunsmith today. Rifle's headspace checked fine. The bore showed very severe copper fouling. Under a bore scope the bore looked orange! Left the gun with the smith for thorough cleaning, and bedding, action, trigger job. Owner, and I, are releaved.

While there I made the mistake of looking at a custom Ruger Blackhawk Convertable .45LC-.45acp. Color case frame, cocoabola grips, trigger job, gold leaf and engraving on the cylinder....way outta my league price-wise,...but damn nice.

t2e

 

[kennedy]

this is why I don`t reload for others. My friends are always asking me to reload for them and I tell them no, I don`t want any of my mistakes to hurt any one. not that i have made any yet, but why take a chance.

 

[fatelk]

Glad that worked out OK. I've gotten a lot more careful about shooting reloads I didn't make myself.

A while back I shot up a box of .38 special lead bullet reloads that were given to me a year or two ago. I don't even know for sure who loaded them. They were lead bullet .38's and I shot them up in a heavy frame .357 magnum, so I figured I was fine even if they were loaded heavy.

Turns out that out of 50 rounds, 9 didn't contain any gunpowder! Eight of them did nothing except back the primer out a little, but the ninth had to be pounded out of the forcing cone back into the cylinder so I could open it up.:banghead:

 

[OrangePwrx9]

In Richard Lee's first reloading manual, he relates an experiment he did where he deliberately overloaded a .30-06 cartridge with successively heavier loads and fired it in a Springfield (as I recall). The pressure indications kept mounting until he reached the point where the powder charge was compressed. Then the pressure signs disappeared and he was able to add even more powder (3 or 4 grains?) before pressure signs began appearing again. His conclusion was that compressing the charge significantly slows the burn rate of the powder and, in so doing, lowers pressures.

That might be why your friend didn't see any pressure signs. It might also have saved his gun. I doubt a smith will find anything wrong with it.
Bob

 

[okokie]

I don't see any problem

I have a question have none of you ever had a blown primer. I have in a 6.5x55
96 mauser
and with factory loaded ammo from PMC. Did it hurt my 113 year old rifle? NO
And this is a rifle that is only good for up to 45,000 pressure according to all loading books. So why do all of you say he should have a gunsmith check his rifle when he only had a flat primer?
You need to read all the strength test P. O. Ackley did on all kinds of bolt actions.