Recently I reloaded mixed headstamp 40 S&W's. Starting to shoot them up, I had a squib. Could it have been me? Nah, it must have been Lee. Anyway, I didn't want to tear the whole batch apart to check for other squibs, so I laboriously measured samplings of case weights for each headstamp, calculated the maximun and the minimum they could weigh properly loaded, and found that for each headstamp a missing charge weighed more than the max-min difference. In other words, a squib case should always weigh less than the lightest properly loaded case. This also accounted for bullet weight variations and powder throw variations. Found a few that were marginal, shot them up with no problems, and moved on. So, from now on, no mixed headstamps to make it easier to weigh for squibs if necessary. Headstamp sorting is a pain, but a bit like laughing at state plates on a trip of places you wouldn't want to live, you get to see some interesting range brass you might want to discriminate against in reloading.
Why I Now Sort by Headstamp
- Thread starter leefan
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
So...you're going to weigh each of your loaded rounds to make sure you don't have a squib?
I once had a series of squibs and it took me a day or two to figure out why. Haven't had one since then and that was 10 years ago. So figure 50,000 - 100,000 rounds later? It really doesn't pay me to do more than tumble the case I pick up and then run them through the 550. Life's too short.
But, out of curiosity, what did you record as the weights of each type of brass? What are the differences in weights, and the respective variations in weight?
I once had a series of squibs and it took me a day or two to figure out why. Haven't had one since then and that was 10 years ago. So figure 50,000 - 100,000 rounds later? It really doesn't pay me to do more than tumble the case I pick up and then run them through the 550. Life's too short.
But, out of curiosity, what did you record as the weights of each type of brass? What are the differences in weights, and the respective variations in weight?
The plan is to be more careful and eyeball each charge before seating the bullet.
What I measured for case weight variation was:
Federal extruded 67.4 to 69.0 grains
Speer 67.7 to 69.9
Blazer 67.8 to 68.6
Remington 65.8 to 68.0
Winchester 67.1 to 70.9
Federal non-extruded 63.0 to 65.2
max across all cases 70.9
min across all cases 63.0
The max-min for all cases did not allow all cases to be weighed to find a squib, had to do it by headstamp.
In no way was this statistically significant, I took just enough time to see if the approach would work. If me or Lee screw up again I'll measure more cases of that headstamp.
I accounted for powder throw and bullet weight variations, but in retrospect I should have allowed for scale drift all the measurements. All in all, it's still better than pulling bullets.
What I measured for case weight variation was:
Federal extruded 67.4 to 69.0 grains
Speer 67.7 to 69.9
Blazer 67.8 to 68.6
Remington 65.8 to 68.0
Winchester 67.1 to 70.9
Federal non-extruded 63.0 to 65.2
max across all cases 70.9
min across all cases 63.0
The max-min for all cases did not allow all cases to be weighed to find a squib, had to do it by headstamp.
In no way was this statistically significant, I took just enough time to see if the approach would work. If me or Lee screw up again I'll measure more cases of that headstamp.
I accounted for powder throw and bullet weight variations, but in retrospect I should have allowed for scale drift all the measurements. All in all, it's still better than pulling bullets.
gamestalker
member
Risky business, IMO.
Wouldn't it just make more sense to take steps to eliminate such dangerous mishaps? Been reloading for better than 30 yrs. and have yet to experience a squib at the range. I always catch them prior to seating the bullet, as it should be.
GS
Wouldn't it just make more sense to take steps to eliminate such dangerous mishaps? Been reloading for better than 30 yrs. and have yet to experience a squib at the range. I always catch them prior to seating the bullet, as it should be.
GS
Lets see, you can pick out a few bullets and get +/-2gr, then the difference in case weight even if they are the same headstamp. I agree "theoretically" you should be able to weigh them and see if there is a large difference???? But I would get my equipment running well, clean and lube my powder measure on a regular basis, and try to keep my loading process consistent.
I load 300 rds a week. Can't weigh them all. When I've thorown squibs/light loads, its my fault for not maintaining my powder measure.
I load 300 rds a week. Can't weigh them all. When I've thorown squibs/light loads, its my fault for not maintaining my powder measure.
That's an excellent point. I can't find it in my notes, but I recall measuring one batch of Berry's and finding no more than 0.2 grain variation. Next time I reload I'll measure the bullet weights. I have been so focussed on powder drop variation that I haven't done many bullet weight measurements, just quickie checks on each new box.
witchhunter
Member
Throw an eyeball on each case.
Swampman
Old Fart
It might work sometimes, but it might not.
I've got "same headstamp" cases that were made 40 years apart. Heck, they probably had to replace the presses at least once in that time period, maybe more.
All it would take for your "system" to fail would be one slightly heavy case combined with one slightly heavy bullet. Probability and statistics is great, but look at a "Bell Curve" sometime and you'll see that there are always going to be items that are a long way from the average. Combine a couple of 'em and the "system" can go KABOOM.
I agree with the previous posts recommending the "Mark I Eyeball" used before seating bullets.
If that fails and you think you may have loaded ammo without any powder, PULL IT DOWN, NOW!
Why do you think places like Rocky Mountain Reloading often have large numbers of pulled Speer Gold Dot bullets for sale? It's not because the ammo got too old, Gold Dots haven't existed long enough for that!
They get pulled because there was a problem, usually something safety related, such as the possibility of too light, too heavy, or missing powder charges.
Now consider that the ammo that gets pulled was loaded with the SAME LOT of brass, bullets, primers and powder.
But they pull 'em down anyway.
Not because the ballisticians aren't smart enough to average things and add 'em up, but because AVERAGES are just that, and it only takes a combination of "out of the average" components to blow up a gun and blind or possibly kill someone.
Just so you know, I always segregate my cases by Headstamp too, but I do it just so none of my buddies can make off with my brass when we're shooting.
That seems like a good enough reason to me!
I've got "same headstamp" cases that were made 40 years apart. Heck, they probably had to replace the presses at least once in that time period, maybe more.
All it would take for your "system" to fail would be one slightly heavy case combined with one slightly heavy bullet. Probability and statistics is great, but look at a "Bell Curve" sometime and you'll see that there are always going to be items that are a long way from the average. Combine a couple of 'em and the "system" can go KABOOM.
I agree with the previous posts recommending the "Mark I Eyeball" used before seating bullets.
If that fails and you think you may have loaded ammo without any powder, PULL IT DOWN, NOW!
Why do you think places like Rocky Mountain Reloading often have large numbers of pulled Speer Gold Dot bullets for sale? It's not because the ammo got too old, Gold Dots haven't existed long enough for that!
They get pulled because there was a problem, usually something safety related, such as the possibility of too light, too heavy, or missing powder charges.
Now consider that the ammo that gets pulled was loaded with the SAME LOT of brass, bullets, primers and powder.
But they pull 'em down anyway.
Not because the ballisticians aren't smart enough to average things and add 'em up, but because AVERAGES are just that, and it only takes a combination of "out of the average" components to blow up a gun and blind or possibly kill someone.
Just so you know, I always segregate my cases by Headstamp too, but I do it just so none of my buddies can make off with my brass when we're shooting.
That seems like a good enough reason to me!
32_d3gr33s
Member
If your not compressing the powder, just shake the round.... you can hear if its got powder in it. Lol
Thanks to all for your informative replies. Even if the approach has its flaws, it was an interesting exercise. Guess I'd better not share how I once reloaded with tools from the garage, various kitchen utensils, and some common office supplies.
I check for squibs by having a small battery-powered light attached to my Dillon 650 that shines down into the cases as they go by after powder charging. That way I can eyeball that the powder is at the correct level. As long as I'm doing the normal interval powder weight checks on the scale (after I get going, about every couple hundred rounds, more often at the start), I have high confidence in the consistency of my powder drops.
GW Staar
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I'm always amazed at the progressive racers on YouTube, demonstrating how fast they can crank. Unless they are pros who know how to set up a Camdex, I question whether they know....for sure... that they don't have a squib or a double charge.
If you use a single stage you ought to look each time to see. That's why I prefer the batch method. Charge a whole tray full and examine each one.
But if you use a progressive, it's harder....especially if you're racing....someone or something. RCBS, Dillon, and Hornady have tried to help with powder cops of various designs, but the RCBS Lockout die (if setup right) prevents the "stupid" in all of us. It flat out stops the cranking until you fix it. Read the detailed review at Ultimate Reloader.com. Link to it is on this 6mmbr bulletin page.
Some progressives are easier to see in than others....mine is harder than most being charged as it rotates to the back. So I created this mirror system for me......but you gotta look...and if I don't that's a stupid that can't be fixed.
Here's an idea that might work for some of us.....Its a color movie camera that costs $55 at Amazon! You can mount a 30" screen if it takes that to get your attention......a 9" one will work for most of us.
If you use a single stage you ought to look each time to see. That's why I prefer the batch method. Charge a whole tray full and examine each one.
But if you use a progressive, it's harder....especially if you're racing....someone or something. RCBS, Dillon, and Hornady have tried to help with powder cops of various designs, but the RCBS Lockout die (if setup right) prevents the "stupid" in all of us. It flat out stops the cranking until you fix it. Read the detailed review at Ultimate Reloader.com. Link to it is on this 6mmbr bulletin page.
Some progressives are easier to see in than others....mine is harder than most being charged as it rotates to the back. So I created this mirror system for me......but you gotta look...and if I don't that's a stupid that can't be fixed.
Here's an idea that might work for some of us.....Its a color movie camera that costs $55 at Amazon! You can mount a 30" screen if it takes that to get your attention......a 9" one will work for most of us.
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floydster
Member
Last year I had my first squib in 65 years handloading.
It can happen and I can't explain how it happened, I am super very careful in my loads with audible and visual powder check.
I do suspect however it could have been a powder bridge.
It can happen and I can't explain how it happened, I am super very careful in my loads with audible and visual powder check.
I do suspect however it could have been a powder bridge.
Catpop
Member
Maybe I missed it. Were you reloading with a progressive press or one at a time under a drop measure? I did have a Dillon problem one time when an allen head capscrew came loose.
loose noose
Member
I also sort by head stamp, but for reasons other than squib loads, I noticed that doing so makes my progressive press run a lot more smoothly, when all the cases are much more uniform.
Vodoun da Vinci
Member
Exactly that. I charge 50 cases and then take a bright light and stand over the cases and look straight down on them. Just a boogie check to see that all cases have powder and that all of them are the same fill level.
Then take 'em and seat the bullets...I realize that guys with progressive presses can't/don't do that and luckily I shoot a low enough volume that I don't need a progressive. I don't think I can load without seeing the powder level actually in the case.
VooDoo
PJSprog
Member
Yup. Visually inspect each case before seating. Of course, this is fairly easy in a single stage operation, less so on a progressive.
I occasionally take a bunch of grief for still loading with Lee dippers after all these years (and probably will here, too), but I have yet to "throw a light charge" with one.
I occasionally take a bunch of grief for still loading with Lee dippers after all these years (and probably will here, too), but I have yet to "throw a light charge" with one.
Arkansas Paul
Member
When I was a rookie reloader I too thought that you could weigh loaded rounds and see if the powder charge had been left out. I quickly learned it was a time wasting endevour.
If you do THIS then what difference does the headstamp make?
And another thing (when isn't there one....), there's the issue of distractions while reloading.
What's going on with me when I reload is that 1) I'm alone, 2) there is no TV or music (and I love music), 3) there has been no consumption of alcohol prior to or during reloading (although after is another story, as I'm fond of a wee dram). My whole attention is focused on the process, and I'm pretty good at not letting my mind wander when I'm reloading.
You know who you are, and you know your reloading habits. I'm just sayin'.
Note: I have an RCBS Lock-Out Die and have used it in the #3 station on my Dillon 650. No, it's not too difficult to set up, and yes, it works. If there's a no-charge or double-charge, the press stops cold. The name "lock-out" is very well taken. BUT: what it will NOT do is tell you if your charge is off by some incremental amount. It is only useful in the two conditions described above: NO powder, or WAY too much powder. All the usual powder weight checks must be performed even when using one of these devices. And since (in my view) reloading demands complete attention, then isn't something like the Lock-Out Die redundant? In any case, although I've used it successfully, I'm not prepared to recommend it.
What's going on with me when I reload is that 1) I'm alone, 2) there is no TV or music (and I love music), 3) there has been no consumption of alcohol prior to or during reloading (although after is another story, as I'm fond of a wee dram). My whole attention is focused on the process, and I'm pretty good at not letting my mind wander when I'm reloading.
You know who you are, and you know your reloading habits. I'm just sayin'.
Note: I have an RCBS Lock-Out Die and have used it in the #3 station on my Dillon 650. No, it's not too difficult to set up, and yes, it works. If there's a no-charge or double-charge, the press stops cold. The name "lock-out" is very well taken. BUT: what it will NOT do is tell you if your charge is off by some incremental amount. It is only useful in the two conditions described above: NO powder, or WAY too much powder. All the usual powder weight checks must be performed even when using one of these devices. And since (in my view) reloading demands complete attention, then isn't something like the Lock-Out Die redundant? In any case, although I've used it successfully, I'm not prepared to recommend it.
Rule3, I can't put anything over on you. I'll still sort because I am an old old man and despite my best intentions I might still make a mistake. I absolutely loathe disassembling cartridges, especially those with hard crimps. I feel like I am in more danger from an accident doing that than from any harm from a squib. Sorting also removes one more variable from the process. I am in the middle of investigating one benefit now, where a particular cartridge is hard to seat primers in. But I haven't made the measurements yet. And looking at every headstamp sometimes prompts the thought "If I wouldn't buy these guys loaded ammo, do I really want to reload it?" Back in '09 I bought some real trash because trash was all you could find. I am paying the price shooting it off now.
Squib avoidance
I caught a squib in one of my first batches of .45 ACP when I started reloading. I was shaken to see it in there and took the gun apart and tapped it out with a dowel - phew! Teachable moment for sure. I use a single stage so there was a lot of motion, ect. while reloading. Now I changed my process to eliminate the potential for errors.
I still use a tray and I powder all cases at the same time, I have the powder measure set up so I do not even have to touch the cases, I just move the tray in one hand and the lever with the other. Then I use a penlight to inspect all cases and the powder level before seating any bullets. Now I have the confidence to know my charge is OK in each case, and it's faster.
I caught a squib in one of my first batches of .45 ACP when I started reloading. I was shaken to see it in there and took the gun apart and tapped it out with a dowel - phew! Teachable moment for sure. I use a single stage so there was a lot of motion, ect. while reloading. Now I changed my process to eliminate the potential for errors.
I still use a tray and I powder all cases at the same time, I have the powder measure set up so I do not even have to touch the cases, I just move the tray in one hand and the lever with the other. Then I use a penlight to inspect all cases and the powder level before seating any bullets. Now I have the confidence to know my charge is OK in each case, and it's faster.
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