Why is Cocked and Locked Out of Vogue?

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Give me DA or DAO

I loved my 1911's many years ago until I found a few times my clothes had unlocked them.

Now I love my autos DA first shot, and am new to trying DAO on hamerless revolvers. Somewhere on THR I read that 80% of all defense shootings are done in DA mode.

I'm not SWAT. Just a Joe who wants to level the odds against criminals. To this end, I believe the best defensive stance is a hamerless revolver in my pocket with my hand on it. You need not reveal you have a weapon until you shoot through your pocket.

Can't think of a faster "presentation" with no consequences if defense is not warrented.
 
that is a nice colt.

anyways this takes me back to the post about 1911's being outdated. This is essentially the same dicussion.

however i dont think cocked and locked is out of vogue. on the contrary. it is probably more vogue than ever. though having a hammer on a gun is sort of outdated.
 
Good idea on the basis of what?

Legal liability? If the gun has been built, shipped, tested used under the most extreme conditions (read about the Miami PD's testing of the Glock), and is in use by PDs everywhere, who can realistically and convincingly make the case that Glocks are a legal timebomb?
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I get the idea that you did not read through my whole post before you replied. I agree with you that Glocks are not unsafe. They're just as safe as the person using them. Where we disagree is on the idea of light-triggered 1911s requiring manual safeties. A .5 lb pull tweaked SA game-gun trigger is different, from a safety standpoint, from a multi-lb DA trigger on a revolver that has to cock a hammer, rotate a cylinder and then cause a loud noise. Is it a qualitative difference? Perhaps not, in view of the modern striker-fired systems that try to split the difference and muddy the waters. But it is certainly a quantitative one (lbs of force required, distance travelled), and as the Soviets said, quantity has a quality all its own.

Mike
 
I do not own a pistol capable of C&L carry but I would be quite pleased if there was a DAO pistol with a trigger like my Smith. I am becoming a great fan of DA revolver shooting and find no lack of speed or control using it. There's nothing like a crisp single action but if you could name a semi auto that resembles a good revolver I'd probably buy it.
 
Back in vogue?

I actually think they're back in vogue. Sig has their new P220 SAO and P220 Carry SAO, as well as the X-5 competition pistols. USP's and compacts are often carried C&L. And look at the 1911 market, it seems to be exploding:

1) Smith and Wesson's fairly new line of 1911's
2) Ed Brown
3) Rock River arms
4) Springfield
5) Wilson
6) Les Baer
7) NightHawk really seems to be taking off
8) STI
9) Dan Wesson (CZ's)

And then there's ton's of customizer's and tuners out there that seem to be doing well like Hilton Yam, Jardine, Yost-Bonitz, Nowlin, etc.

I'd say they're making quite the comeback these days.

p.s. I carry a 1911 C&L, a USPc C&L, or a Glock.

N
 
What is old is new again.

I think that the industry in general is coming around to the ideas that many shooters never forgot: C&L is good, the .45 is fine, and a single stack magazine means a nice, comfortable grip. That all adds up to 1,911. ;)

Now, if only there would be some serious interest in FN's HP lineup, too...it is always rumoured to be on the chopping block.

Mike
 
Coronach said:
I get the idea that you did not read through my whole post before you replied.
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I'm not sure why. I picked thru and responded to several of your points.

Coronach said:
A .5 lb pull tweaked SA game-gun trigger is different, from a safety standpoint, from a multi-lb DA trigger on a revolver that has to cock a hammer, rotate a cylinder and then cause a loud noise.
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When TSHF, you won't be able to tell the difference between an 8 ounce pull trigger and an 18 pound pull trigger. Pull trigger, gun go Boom. Safety practices and adherance to Rule #3 are the only thing that keep folks from putting a round where they don't want it or when they don't want it.
 
As others have said, cocked-and-locked carry is probably more popular than ever. However, mechanically speaking, a cocked, single-action handgun is more dangerous than an uncocked, double-action handgun or a partially cocked, safe-action pistol. That said, a mechanical failure is vastly less likely than a user error.

~G. Fink
 
When TSHF, you won't be able to tell the difference between an 8 ounce pull trigger and an 18 pound pull trigger. Pull trigger, gun go Boom. Safety practices and adherance to Rule #3 are the only thing that keep folks from putting a round where they don't want it or when they don't want it.
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Even if I was being extremely careful, if my trigger were to somehow catch or snag on something (other than my finger) I think I'd prefer the 18 pound trigger over the 8 oz one in that scenario.

Or a safety (that's not on the trigger ;) ).
 
Sounds like a couple of former 1911 carrriers need to invest in maintaining their guns and holsters properly. A new plunger spring, safety plunger, and if need be, safety just isn't that expensive, and a properly maintained 1911 thumb safety isn't going to just click off from your shirt brushing it.
 
Now, I have more rounds shot from DA/SA & DAO handguns but over the course of the last 18 months, SA guns (1911s and BHP) have won me over to the world of C&L and really like it!
 
The Glock does have a safety, as does the 1911.

The 1911's safety is in its thumb, grip and, for some makers, in the firing pin area. I don't understand no safety on a 1911, either passive or active. Sounds like a time bomb to me. An accident will occur without one.

The Glock's safety is on the trigger. Without the trigger pulled, there is no bangie.

And traditional double action autos are just as accurate on the first double action shot as on the following single action shots in a string. It is just a matter of training, lots of dry fire and lots of practice. Now some guns are smoother than others in regards to the trigger quality.
 
"Because in general, as a society we've moved away from thinking and logic, and toward feelings"

This may be true but the sword cuts both ways. There are probably more people who carry and own 1911s because of certain feelings than because they thought it out. Most people who carry 1911s are brainwashed into thinking that it is somehow more of a "man's" gun or something.

C&L is fine if you don't mind the fact that you will NEVER have the option to just pull the trigger on a dud round and have it go bang. Pratice your tap rack and bang or whatever you are calling it now.

The fact is, in the time it takes to learn to safely carry C&L, you can learn how to shoot DA/SA and have a better set-up.

It takes some time and effort but you can learn to shoot DA/SA just fine. I did it and I will never go back to the old SA only pistols for carry. I have moved on. For range plinking and target practice they are fine but for serious self defense, you should keep it as simple as possible.

The best set-up I have seen so far is the SIG DA/SA with de-cock only. No safety needed or wanted yet it is without doubt the safest pistol set-up there is. SIG 220 beats 1911 in just about every catagory including accuracy most of the time. If you are talking about similar priced guns, the SIG 220 will out preform most 1911s. There are some +$2000 1911s that will shoot rings around almost anything but they are for target and not carry.

I wonder how many people would put up with SA only guns if the SIG 220 was our first military semi-auto pistol instead of the 1911. If we issued SIG 220s in WWI and WWII, I doubt that more than a few people would even consider owning a 1911 style pistol for defense. That is why we have moved from thinking to feeling. The SIG 220 is the thinking man's 1911.
 
albanian said: C&L is fine if you don't mind the fact that you will NEVER have the option to just pull the trigger on a dud round and have it go bang. Pratice your tap rack and bang or whatever you are calling it now.
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Name one reputable school that teaches the immediate action drill for "click" on a semi-automatic is pull the trigger again.


albanian said: The SIG 220 is the thinking man's 1911
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"Seriously, we didn't even know you guys were still around."

"Next time do a little research."


I guess I like being a caveman.
 

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Well, I guess since more of our military units are going back to the 1911, they must be feeling something more than thinking about it. Hmmm, a kinder gentler Marine.

Yarrite! :neener:
 
I went from learning on 1911's and Smith Mod 10's to the Wondernines to giving up any single action and having only DA so I could carry either auto or revolver and have to think only the same thing, just pull the trigger. Now back to my 1911's and Smith revolvers. Not that I don't have other guns. I also own, shoot and carry a Sig 228 and a Glock 19 once in a while. But mostly my 1911's.

It is what your training is. It does not matter what gun I pick up, I know just from the muscle memory what I have in my hand. Train, train, train...can not say it enough..,there is no such thing as too much training. Even if you can not shoot that much. Handle you gun everyday and get use to how it operates and feels in your hand, operate it, load and unload it. Not any different then a ball player carrying around a ball all the time to make it a part of their life and muscle memory. To get really good, you have to do the same thing. Not just carry it around on your belt and shoot it once a month.

As far as Locked and Cocked. You also have a grip safety on the 1911, not just the thumb safety. But again, it comes back to training and maintaining your gun. Regardless of the type of gun, they all have to be maintained to remain safe and in good working order.
 
I think only one person in this thread actually acknowledged that the 1911 has a grip safety.

Here's the deal: Assume first that you are carrying your 1911 C&L Pistol in a proper holster (trigger guard totally enclosed).

If your clothing swipes off the safety (that's never happened to me.. but what do I know?), there are two safeties still in play; the grip safety and the ultimate safety we call a "trigger".

With the thumb safety off, you would still have to depress the grip safety to be able to fire the weapon. So let's say that for some unfathomable reason that the grip safety were to be depressed, not momentarily, but for a considerable period of time (how in the world would THAT happen while carrying?.. but I digress..).
But even with the thumb safety off AND the grip safety depressed (both "by accident" at the SAME time; AND the grip safety being HELD DOWN by something?... jeez, what a stretch), the pistol would STILL be safe because the trigger is completely enclosed by the holster.

You guys who are afraid of the 1911 safety "system" really go out of your way to conjure up a situation where it will go off without your willing consent.

Carter
 
Beacuse my first 1911 was a cheap POS Firestorm, and all it took was one good fart to de-activate the manual safety.
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Well yea, but I'm talking about a high quality 1911 designed pistol as represented by Colt, for example, that's made with high quality parts to high quality standards and works properly as designed.

You do correctly point out, however, that most of our problems in life can be remedied by following a proper diet. :what:

The next time your POS Firestorm goes off inadvertantly, just look around and blame the dog.
That works in most cases.

Carter
 
I feel compelled to state the obvious

It seems to me that it would be easier to have a ND with a Glock or a DA revolver than with a 1911 in condition one, yet many people think a Glock or a DA revolver is somehow safer than a 1911.:confused:

People who get the twitchies from being in the presence of a 1911 in condition one have obviously never heard of "The Universal Law Of Guns," to wit:

If you don't want the gun to go *BOOM* don't pull the trigger!

Duh!!:D

Any well made 1911 from a reputable maker whose firing or safety mechanism is not damaged in some way (usually caused by some tool with a big file who thinks he is a gunsmith) will not ND without some negligent handling from a human.

1911s are little hand held machines. Machines do not ND. Humans ND.

Oh, and if you want an action job done on your 1911, send it to a professional 1911 'smith who knows what he's doing!!
 
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