Why JHP?

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"[Correct, hence why I practice with cheaper reloads that comparably duplicate the factory JHP POA/POI.
Mottos I live by are "Holes on target speak volumes" and "Accuracy is everything".
Peace.]"

This^^^^^^^^ Is the way I practice/train, Not a bad idea & has Mass approval ; )PS I save alot of money this way.
Y/D
 
I guess I don't understand all this "how" you defend yourself. Where I live, if you have the right to defend yourself, then that's just it. If someone enters my house and I defend myself with one of my handguns, no one's ever going to know whether I did so with handloads or factory loads simply because I was within the law when I defended myself and that's as far as the matter will go.

Are other states different? Texas laws lay out explicitely when a person may defend themselves or in the words of the statutes, "use deadly force".

Several years ago in San Antonio a gentleman walked out on the balcony and saw someone jacking his car. He went inside, retrieved his deer rifle and axed the guy from his balcony. No charges filed, end of matter.

Incidently, right or wrong, handloads are all I have ever or will ever fire.

35W
 
35 Whelen said:
I guess I don't understand all this "how" you defend yourself. Where I live, if you have the right to defend yourself, then that's just it....
Sorry, but that's not just it, at least not automatically. Our law in general frowns on one person intentionally injuring or killing another. Our law, however, recognizes that there are some circumstances in which it would be justified for one person to intentionally injure or kill another person.

You will not have the final say on whether or not your use of lethal force was justified. Other people will be deciding that. So if you think you were justified but the DA and/or grand jury disagree, it's not a "good shoot" unless your trial jury decides that it was.

Not all cases of claimed self defense are easily resolved. It depends on what happened and how it happened and a lot of factors that will not be in your control. Consider --

This couple, arrested in early April and finally exonerated under Missouri's Castle Doctrine in early June. And no doubt after incurring expenses for bail and a lawyer, as well as a couple of month's anxiety, before being cleared.

Larry Hickey, in gun friendly Arizona: He was arrested, spent 71 days in jail, went through two different trials ending in hung juries, was forced to move from his house, etc., before the DA decided it was a good shoot and dismissed the charges.

Mark Abshire in Oaklahoma: Despite defending himself against multiple attackers on his own lawn in a fairly gun-friendly state with a "Stand Your Ground" law, he was arrested, went to jail, charged, lost his job and his house, and spent two and a half years in the legal grinder before finally being acquitted.

Harold Fish, also in gun friendly Arizona: He was still convicted and sent to prison. He won his appeal, his conviction was overturned, and a new trial was ordered. The DA chose to dismiss the charges rather than retry Mr. Fish.

Gerald Ung: He was attacked by several men, and the attack was captured on video. He was nonetheless charged and brought to trial. He was ultimately acquitted.

Some good folks in clear jeopardy and with no way to preserve their lives except by the use of lethal force against other humans. Yet that happened under circumstances in which their justification for the use of lethal force was not immediately clear. While each was finally exonerated, it came at great emotional and financial cost. And perhaps there but for the grace of God will go one of us.
 
A hearty applause to Fiddletown's post above.

Guys, several years of participating in dead-horse-beating debates on this topic have shown me that participants tend not to be on the same wavelength or discussing the same things, particularly around, oh, Page 4 or so.

I would respectfully suggest that we all review http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=618021

This will save everyone a lot of wasted time and finger wear on keyboards.
 
Explain to us why, under the law of evidence, it would matter if the shooting were a self defense shooting or some other kind. You've been repeatedly advised that as a matter of law it doesn't matter. If you continue to contend that it does matter, cite some applicable legal authority.

I will rephrase; Has a reloaders data not been allowed into evidence when there was an ample amount of GSR evidence, under any circumstance?
 
Sorry, but that's not just it, at least not automatically.

Have you read the Texas statutes on self defense? I bet they're wildly different from those in California. I had no earthly idea just how liberal they were until I acquired my first CHL and was subject to roughly 8 hours of reading and studying them in a classroom environment. For example, here's a copy of our states Castle Law. I was stunned to say the least at the plethora of situations in which deadly force is justified in the state of Texas.

I'm not trying to argue with you and certainly not posing as some expert, for that I am not. But as a personal decision, I decided long ago that any intruder in my house or anyone posing a direct threat to me or my family would be subject to deadly force, no questions asked, regardless of any gray areas in the laws. If that lands me in a penal facility, so be it. At least said intruder won't bother my family or anyone elses for that matter.

35W
 
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35 Whelen said:
Have you read the Texas statutes on self defense? I bet they're wildly different from those in California....
Yes I have, and they are clearly the most favorable in the nation -- from the defender's point of view. California's are pretty good and quite similar to many gun friendly, defender friendly States. For example, there's no duty to retreat in California. Force is used in self defense in California, and when justified the defender tends to be quickly exonerated.

But all use of force laws, no matter how favorable, have a conditions which must be satisfied for the use of force to be considered justified. So it's always possible for there to be disagreement as to whether or not those conditions were actually satisfied, e. g., equivocal evidence, a conflict between witnesses, etc. And when there is such disagreement, and it's not established the the use of force was justified, the DA will, and probably has a duty to, prosecute. Now the disagreement will be resolved by a trial.

Another thing to consider, many of us travel. If I need to defend myself in another State, the favorable laws back home won't do me any good.

35 Whelen said:
...any intruder in my house...
You will also always have more leeway in your home.

357 Terms said:
I will rephrase; Has a reloaders data not been allowed into evidence when there was an ample amount of GSR evidence, under any circumstance?
Yes. Bias.
 
Yes. Bias.

Well there you go, my SD reloads will light someone on fire from the distance that Bias claimed his wife was shot (or I mean shot herself?) from.

I imagine that could make a big difference on how a D.A would look at GSR evidence.

It certainly would have made a differnce in the Bias case,, and would have corroborated his claims.
 
I had an interesting conversion tonight with an individual who worked in a certain state crime lab and headed the firearm's section.

Give me some time and I'll comment on what I can from that conversation tomorrow. I will share this tonight, though. What he recounts from how he and his lab worked do not reconcile with the information here in this thread.
 
As I mentioned, I had occasion to speak to a good friend yesterday, and I asked him if we could have a short discussion about the matter of reloads used in a shooting. I passed some of the assertions here past my friend, a state crime lab expert, last night. I won’t go into the entire conversation, but I’ll share a few relevant points.

The matter of ammunition in evidence –
Asserted here and in other discussions is the belief that ammunition in evidence must remain entirely preserved. That is entirely false.

Any recovered bullets, casings, and unexpended ammunition is thoroughly inspected at the lab. Furthermore, as a matter of procedure unexpended ammunition is disassembled to determine its characteristics as precisely as possible. The bullets and powder are examined, weighed and identified, as is the primer. An experienced and trained examiner will have the ability to determine with some certitude the manufacture of origin. In other words, the examiner can determine whether the rounds are loaded at a factory and by which manufacturer, or outside a factory.

Furthermore, if the firearm itself and enough ammunition were recovered, some of it will be fired through that firearm as part of the examination. If there isn’t sufficient ammunition in evidence, the lab will test some that is as similar to the evidence as possible. Most of the cases the lab works the lot number, or numbers, of the ammunition is simply impossible to determine. But the lab will have identified who made it, place a phone call to the manufacturer, and request some having the same characteristics and using similar components. And when it arrives, even the factory rounds are examined, disassembled and sampled to ensure the lab got what it asked for. If that’s not possible, the labs have reloading equipment. They will replicate, as close as possible, ammunition identical to the round they disassembled and use those to conduct their firing tests.

So, the notion that an examination of recovered ammunition can only be done through means of observation that completely preserves the evidence is not true.

If the state in any way suspects that hand loaded ammunition was used, a search warrant will include the seizure of the suspect’s components, loading equipment and loading data. I believe his quote was, “Ken, if you’re ever the subject of the attention of the state in a homicide, we can turn your entire life inside out. After the search warrant is executed you’ll be lucky to have carpet left in your house.” I asked him specifically if he’d ever worked a case where the crime lab used a hand loader’s data book to develop test ammunition. “Of course,” was his reply.


The matter of Gun Shot Residue –
Asserted here are many false notions of GSR examinations, most commonly repeated is the notion that GSR testing without independent factory exemplar data is not admissible as evidence in court. That is entirely false. We discussed this at length. I’ll leave you with this.

Quite often the crime lab works a case with evidence that contains GSR, but no gun or ammunition was recovered. Now according to some, without a gun and the ammunition the evidence is rather meaningless. Far from it. Much can be determined from that evidence alone. We discussed just how much information can be gathered, “But rather than take my word for it, Ken,” he says, “go to the Kentucky State Police Forensic Lab’s website and look for yourself.”

So I did. You can, too. http://www.firearmsid.com/A_labsys.htm

When a pattern of gunshot residues is found on a submitted article of clothing and the questioned firearm and ammunition are known, firearm examiners will try to bracket the muzzle-to-garment test results within a minimum and a maximum distance. Results may read something like:

Exhibit 1 (victim's shirt) was examined and a pattered deposit of gunshot residues was found around a bullet entrance hole located in the shirt's left shoulder. Exhibit 2 (firearm) was found to produce similar deposits of gunshot residues when fired at a target from a minimum distance of 6 inches out to a maximum distance of 18 inches.​

Bracketing the muzzle-to-garment distance within a minimum and maximum distance is being pretty specific. To get a report back saying something like that listed above the exact firearm and ammunition used in the case must be known and there must be a significant pattern of nitrite residues on the garment.

So we see here that in order to get a precise distance, precise meaning within a foot at close distance, having the exact gun and ammunition isn’t enough. The GSR evidence itself has got to be both well-defined and well-preserved on the garment. Neither of those factors is within the shooter’s control. One is a result of pure luck. The other is subject to any number of factors such as handling by first responders and even the weather.

This module in particular addresses determining distance using only the evidence with GSR - http://www.firearmsid.com/A_distanceResults.htm

When a firearm is not recovered there still may be certain general conclusions that can be reached when gunshot residues are found on the evidence garment.

Contact or Near Contact Gunshot

Probably the easiest conclusion to report would be one involving a contact or near contact gunshot. The results may read something like:

j_distan4.jpg

Exhibit 1 (shirt) was found to have a bullet entrance hole in the chest area that displays physical effects and gunshot residues consistent with a contact or near contact gunshot.​

A contact or near contact gunshot will normally deposit a very intense ring of residue right around the margins of the bullet hole. A close range gunshot, like the one seen above, will typically be in the near contact to approximately 12-inch range of fire.


Close Range Gunshot

Another conclusion that is fairly easy to reach involves what can be call a close range gunshot. The results may read something like:

j_distan2.jpg

Exhibit 1 (shirt) was found to have a bullet entrance hole in the chest area. A heavy deposit of gunshot residues were found around this hole that are consistent with those that would be deposited by a close range gunshot.​

Close range gunshots will usually leave a very concentrated deposit of residue around the bullet entrance hole that is visible to the eye.

A close range gunshot, like the one seen above, will typically be in the near contact to approximately 12-inch range of fire.


Intermediate Range Gunshot

An intermediate range gunshot usually will deposit a significant amount of particulate residue that is not easily seen with the eye but can be detected through a microscopic examination and through chemical testing. The results may read something like:

6605410b_shirt_pro.jpg

Exhibit 1 (shirt) was found to have a bullet entrance hole in the chest area. A deposit of gunshot residues were found around this hole that are consistent with those that would be deposited by an intermediate range gunshot.​

An intermediate range gunshot, like that seen in the above image, can range from just beyond the 12-inch range out to 24 to 36 inches. This depends greatly upon the caliber, barrel length and powder type used in the ammunition.

So GSR evidence – or the lack of it – will become part of the discovery and admitted into evidence whether you used hand loaded ammunition or not. Furthermore, quite a bit of information will be gleaned regarding the distance the shot was taken, even if the gun and ammunition used is completely unknown. If your case and proving your innocence hinges upon knowing the distance down to matters of inches, you’ve got a big hurdle to overcome.


The matter of submitting evidence produced by the Defendant –
As I have already presented, part of the examination will include disassembling the ammunition in evidence. It may include firing some of those rounds in evidence. Even the National Institutes of Justice (NIJ) agrees this is within the scope of a proper investigation of evidence. The NIJ has a complete, and quite thorough, program that they’ve published on-line used as a training tool for Firearms Examiners. In Module 9 it mentions the use of evidence ammunition in testing.

http://www.nij.gov/training/firearms-training/module12/fir_m12_t06_08.htm

To reproduce results, the suspect firearm must be available. The size and density of residue patterns vary based on a combination of factors that may include the firearm, ammunition, barrel length, caliber, powder type, and powder charge. When residue patterns are reproduced in a shooting case, it is essential that the firearm and ammunition used in known-distance testing be as similar as possible to that used in the case.

Sources of testing ammunition may include

  • evidence ammunition from the case, per laboratory protocol,
  • purchased ammunition (same brand, stock number, with the same powder, projectile and primer components),
  • reference ammunition (same brand, stock number, with the same powder, projectile, and primer components).

Note: Examiners should always be aware that reference collections/database programs are seldom all inclusive; all available resources and examiners should be consulted.

If hand loaded ammunition was used, in order to replicate ammunition as similar as possible to the evidence, the lab may load it and use it for testing. The conversation I had last night discussed a case where a man used a round of .45 ACP ammunition dating back to the 1940’s. The lab simply could not find ammunition from that time period to use in testing. So the technician identified the components and loaded some that were as similar as possible to the ammunition and used it for testing.


Fiddletown, you seem to be under the impression that taking a Sharpie to your box of factory ammunition will be sufficient to substantiate to the examiner that this was the ammunition used in the incident. I’m not sure how you come to reconcile that this piece of “defendant-manufactured” evidence is of unimpeachable value, but loading data is not.

A competent Firearms Examiner will not take your half-empty box and merely assume since the evidence ammunition looks similar to the ammunition in your box no further examination is necessary. “I’d be derelict and negligent in my duty if I did not perform a thorough examination of the evidence ammunition,” was his comment to me. “A factory box is nice to have, because I can make my determination quicker. But I could do the same with a reloader’s box of ammunition, or his data. A competent examiner assumes nothing.”

“Remarks like this show ignorance and inexperience, both of how a Forensics Lab works and trial proceedings in general, and you don’t want them making your defense.” He made some other commentary that really isn’t High-Road material, and has little additional value here. But after roughly an hour’s conversation on the matter he reminded me of one thing –

“Ken, there is only one Finder of Fact. It’s not the ammunition factory. It’s not the Forensic Lab, or anyone else involved in the case. The only Finder of Fact is the jury. And they get to chose who they believe. They get to chose how much weight they want to give to each expert witness. Or even if they want to give it any at all. You can present all the expert testimony you want, and it can be clear and convincing in its findings, but the jury retains the right to discard all of it if they want.”



The assertion that you need to use factory ammo to ensure you’ll be safe from a difficult trial is nothing more than a fantasy floated about by speculative masters. The sword cuts both ways. If the GSR that studies say should be there from factory ammunition isn’t, or is inconsistent with the facts as you assert them, all you’ve done is trade one set of problems for another. Sure they can be explained, but once again, the jury gets to decide who to believe.

If you are involved in an incident where you used hand loaded ammunition, and your defense team says they can’t get this sort of ballistics evidence submitted into testimony, retain yourself another.
 
Wow. Thank you for taking the time to inquire into this, and for typing it all out so carefully! I'm sure it isn't absolutely the last word, but it sure is a much more direct and complete look at the subject than we've had to work with before.

Thank you for sharing this.
 
Thank your friend BullfrogKen, and thank you. I have always assumed that an investigation would be conducted in that manner, professionally and throrough.


I suggest that post be a sticky.
 
You still have the case where the judge is in cahoots with the prosecutor and suppresses your evidence so the jury never gets to hear it, much less weigh it. Maybe that's grounds for an appeal? (and more $$$)

Extraordinary write-up, BFK.
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Well done research, BullfrogKen. But, I think it needs to be pointed out to all, that the methodology used in any criminal investigation will vary from state to state, since the prosecution is likely to be according to state law.

Don
 
I always enjoy reading the threads about hand loaded SD ammo...provided they stay civil.

I used to be on the side of the argument that as long as it's a good shoot, who cares what ammo I used.

We are, also, supposed to be responsible owners and get some training.

The Marines were my first, but they never talked about reloads, a different type of "training" I suppose. But after taking training from Arnold Teves and Ayoob in LFI, I'm just not willing to risk it. Ayoob is pretty adamant against reloads for SD, and if need him as an expert witness - God forbid - I only get him with factory, and that is enough reason for me not to use handloads.

I doubt many LFI graduates use anything but factory. It's nice to have a guy like that in your corner. If Fish had Ayoob, I doubt he'd of gone to jail.

Still, it's free country, use whatever makes you feel safe.
 
Thanks for the good information. However, it can still be taken to support both points of view about using reloaded ammo. I think that everyone should agree that it is simpler if the ammo is manufactured by one of the standard manufactures and can be verified as such. Now, is that worth the extra expense of factory ammo and maybe different performance than the ammo you practice with? Will it make any difference in the outcome?

I want to be thought of as a person that went out of their way to use good judgement, protect the rights of others, honor laws, and common actions associated with being a good neighbor/citizen. So, I choose a common caliber, carry a known quality CCW gun, and use a SD round that has been proven to be good and not something that generates too much attention. If everybody at the range comes over to see what you are shooting, then you might think that it is too much out of the norm. For example I really like the idea of the fn57, but would not consider it a good sd choice at the current time.
 
bob, it's not in the state's interest to suppress evidence without just cause. Arbitrarily suppressing GSR evidence does lay the ground for an appeal and re-trial. Judges do not like having their convictions vacated and the case remanded for a new trial. It's expensive for the state, and through the passage of time the decision to convict becomes increasingly harder to get.


I added a few pictures to the discussion. Thanks for the kind words. It wouldn't be the first time something I authored got "stickied" here.
 
Ken,

An excellent discussion of how a modern and efficient crime lab works, but actually not directly on point.

None of your narrative directly addresses the fundamental question of the admissibility into evidence on behalf of the defense of expert opinion testimony based on exemplar testing for GSR for the purposes of concluding at what distance a shot was fired. This was offered as evidence in Bias, where handloads were used, and rejected. This was offered as evidence in Willems, where factory ammunition was used, and accepted

A few things to remember --

[1] The role of the crime lab and the examiners that work there is to conduct a scientific investigation of physical evidence for the prosecutor. They are trying to determine as well as possible from all available physical evidence what happened to help the prosecutor decide whether or not to prosecute and to help him win if he does prosecute.

[2] The information and opinions developed by the scientific examination of available physical evidence is used by the prosecutor to help decide (1) if there's probable cause to believe a crime has been committed; (2) if there's probable cause to believe that a particular person committed that crime; and (3) if there's sufficient evidence in total, scientific and otherwise, to successfully prosecute that individual for that crime.

[3] It's not the job of the crime lab or firearms examiner to decide what is offered as evidence in court, how it will be offered or how it will be used. Nor is it the job of the crime lab or firearms examiner to get information accepted into evidence over any objections made by the defense.

[4] Not all the analysis done by the crime lab or the examiners will necessarily even be offered into evidence. The prosecutor will need to decide how to present his case and how to introduce evidence, scientific and otherwise, to support his case. The prosecutor will have to make his tactical decisions based on his determinations of what would or would not be admissible into evidence. And it will be his job to overcome any objections raised by the defense to the admission into evidences of anything offered by the prosecution.

[5] In this process, the crime lab examiners (scientists) and the prosecutor (lawyer) have very different jobs. They also have very different skill sets and knowledge sets. The conduct of the testing, the analysis of the results and deciding what the results mean are within the scope of the scientist's skills and knowledge. The admissibility of such information into evidence is within the scope of the lawyer's skills and knowledge.

Some specific points:

BullfrogKen said:
...Asserted here are many false notions of GSR examinations, most commonly repeated is the notion that GSR testing without independent factory exemplar data is not admissible as evidence in court. That is entirely false. We discussed this at length. I’ll leave you with this.

Quite often the crime lab works a case with evidence that contains GSR, but no gun or ammunition was recovered. Now according to some, without a gun and the ammunition the evidence is rather meaningless. Far from it. Much can be determined from that evidence alone. We discussed just how much information can be gathered,...
That's no doubt true, but it still begs the questions: when; under what circumstances; in what contexts; and for what purposes.

There may be many ways GSR could be offered as evidence in a criminal trial and many purposes for its use. Whether or not it will be admissible under the rules of evidence will be a function of under what circumstances it is offered, in what context it is offered and for what purpose it is offered.

We've been discussing the use of GSR under certain specific circumstances, in a particular context and for a particular purpose:

  • Circumstances -- a defendant has claimed that he fired a shot in self defense at a particular distance, and the distance is material to his defense and is in dispute;

  • Context -- an opinion of the defendant's expert witness regarding the distance at which the shot was fired based on exemplar testing;

  • Purpose -- to corroborate the defendant's claim of justification.

Note that a key issue in both Bias and Willems was that the distance at which the shot was fired was in dispute:

  • In Bias the prosecution asserted that the lack of GSR on the decedent showed that the shot was fired at a greater distance than claimed by Daniel Bias. So Daniel Bias offered an expert opinion that, based on exemplar testing of rounds that Bias claimed matched the death round, the absence of GSR would have been consistent with the shot having been fired at the distance claimed by Bias. But that testimony was rejected because the judge would not accept Bias' authentication of the handloaded exemplar rounds as being substantially identical to the "death" round. Therefore the jury never heard that testimony and reached its verdict without that information.

  • In Willems, the prosecution claimed that Willems fired from a certain distance based on witness testimony. Willems asserted, to support his claim of justification, that he fired the shot at a much closer distance. Willems offered expert opinion testimony based on exemplar testing of the same commercial ammunition Willems had used that the shot was indeed fired at the distance claimed by Willems. That testimony was admitted into evidence. Therefore the jury heard that testimony and was able to consider that information in reaching its verdict of acquittal.

BullfrogKen said:
...Fiddletown, you seem to be under the impression that taking a Sharpie to your box of factory ammunition will be sufficient to substantiate to the examiner that this was the ammunition used in the incident. I’m not sure how you come to reconcile that this piece of “defendant-manufactured” evidence is of unimpeachable value, but loading data is not...
And you seem for some reason to think that I'm an idiot and learned nothing practicing law for over 30 years.

What you apparently fail to understand is that the best legal arguments are based on multiple facts corroborating each other. So my retention of the box and some left over rounds, plus my email (and thus time and date stamped) note to myself regarding my loading of the magazines, plus the headstamps on the expended cases, plus the headstamps on the left over ammunition in the magazine(s), plus what the firearm and toolmark examiner gleans from examination of the expended case(s) and left over ammunition in the magazine(s) will when taken together, and if necessary, help to a high degree of probably convince a judge what was fired.

It's not a question of any one thing. It's a question of many things taken together.

BullfrogKen said:
...So we see here that in order to get a precise distance, precise meaning within a foot at close distance, having the exact gun and ammunition isn’t enough. The GSR evidence itself has got to be both well-defined and well-preserved on the garment. Neither of those factors is within the shooter’s control. One is a result of pure luck. The other is subject to any number of factors such as handling by first responders and even the weather...
Yes, one could use factory ammunition and still be out of luck. But using handloads won't help.

BullfrogKen said:
...The assertion that you need to use factory ammo to ensure you’ll be safe from a difficult trial is nothing more than a fantasy floated about by speculative masters. The sword cuts both ways. If the GSR that studies say should be there from factory ammunition isn’t, or is inconsistent with the facts as you assert them, all you’ve done is trade one set of problems for another. Sure they can be explained, but once again, the jury gets to decide who to believe....
[1] There is no "safe harbor", and no one ever said that there was. If you are on trial after a use of lethal force you claim was justified, you've got a whole lot of problems. You would not be there unless the prosecutor thought he had enough to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that your use of lethal force was not justified. Handloads might be only one of those problems, but they wouldn't be any problem if you didn't use them. And factory ammunition might possibly help you address only one of those problems, but the use of factory ammunition couldn't even do that for you if you didn't use it.

[2] As to your testing not turning out the way you wanted, there's a reason that, if scientific evidence is wanted for the defense, defense counsel hires his own expert to conduct the testing on behalf of the defense. If the information turns out adverse than defense counsel doesn't use it. And if the results aren't going to be offered as evidence, the expert, his conclusions and everything about the activity is, and remains, completely confidential under what is known as the attorney work product doctrine.

BullfrogKen said:
...If you are involved in an incident where you used hand loaded ammunition, and your defense team says they can’t get this sort of ballistics evidence submitted into testimony, retain yourself another....
[1] If that's what you've got and it's really important to your case, any good lawyer is going to try his very best to get the evidence in. He will. He is ethically obliged to.

[2] But that doesn't mean that he will succeed. So if you're doing "pre-need" risk management planning, it's not a good idea to count on him being able to get into evidence your expert opinion regarding the distance at which a shot was fired testimony based on exemplar GSR testing if handloads were used. If the issue comes up you'll be better off with factory ammunition.

Ken, you've provided wonderful insight into the workings of a crime lab and the processes of scientifically examining firearm and ballistic physical evidence. It brings back memories of some very interesting continuing legal education classes I've taken. Your narrative also should help put to rest the "how will they know I loaded the ammunition" and "how would they know I monkeyed with the gun" type questions that surface regularly.

But I'm afraid that it really has nothing to do with the legal question of the admissibility into evidence of the type of expert opinion testimony under the circumstance, in the context and for the purposes we'd be concerned with.
 
fiddletown, I'm unclear on a point related to this:

As to your testing not turning out the way you wanted, there's a reason that, if scientific evidence is wanted for the defense, defense counsel hires his own expert to conduct the testing on behalf of the defense. If the information turns out adverse than defense counsel doesn't use it. And if the results aren't going to be offered as evidence, the expert, his conclusions and everything about the activity is, and remains, completely confidential under what is known as the attorney work product doctrine.

So if you're trying to use the data your expert gathers, but it doesn't prove to back you up (not necessarily the same thing as damning you) you do not have to submit that finding in court. Got that. However, if the prosecution conducts those tests because they need (want, or plan to use) GSR evidence to strengthen their case, but their testing does not support their assertions, may they suppress or hold back that finding, or must they submit those findings anyway -- or at least answer affirmatively under cross-examination?

Or are you saying that the judge would accept their inclusion of data from your handloads, but would not accept your inclusion of the same kind of data?
 
Ken, please thank your unnamed source for his input. Excellent recap of what firearms and toolmark examiners do.

However, as Fiddletown pointed out, it does not address the issues that were seen in the Bias case and can be expected in other cases involving handloads. You said:


If your case and proving your innocence hinges upon knowing the distance down to matters of inches, you’ve got a big hurdle to overcome.

In the Bias case, it did come down to "matters of inches." The defense wanted desperately to show the jury that, under the circumstances Bias described, very likely there would not have been GSR deposited. However, they were not allowed to do that because the court would not take the defendant's word (in testimony or in his meticulous loading records) as to how that particular cartridge was loaded. Your post was an excellent summary on INVESTiGATION, but did not touch on ADMISSIBILITY, the key element here.

The inescapable elephant in the room is, we have a case on point -- NJ v. Bias -- in which testing of the loads the handloader said were in the gun was not accepted. In seven years now of sometimes heated debate on this issue, no one has yet been able to show me a case where a court DID accept such evidence.

You would be doing all concerned a favor if you could ask your unnamed source whether he can cite an actual case where the reloader's testimony and/or records WERE accepted by a Court for GSR testing-as-to-distance purposes.

I totally agree with your source that the jury is the ultimate arbiter. I didn't see anyone here say differently. However, if critical evidence that favors the defense cannot be put before the jury, they will not have the whole truth upon which to make their decision...and the result of that can be an adverse, and unjust, verdict.

Respectfully,
Mas
 
In Willems, the prosecution claimed that Willems fired from a certain distance based on witness testimony. Willems asserted, to support his claim of justification,that he fired the shot at a much closer distance.
SO are you saying that if Willems HAD used hand loads that the GSR evidence would have been inadmissable?
 
The judge made a seemingly bad decision in the Bias case that favored the prosecution. It could happen in any case. But I wouldn't get too wrapped up in the Bias case, in particular. The judge may have decided wrongly that since Bias was the one loading the rounds and the gun, that he in fact knew what rounds were in the gun and his "loaded at random" claim was a lie intended to open up reasonable doubt. And in the Bias case, the person that was shot and killed was the guy's wife. I don't think that's part of anyone's plan when they decide to have a firearm for SD.

But loading unusually light SD loads in 3 different power levels and loading them randomly from a mixed box is the opposite spectrum of using factory ammo, saving the box, saving the receipt, and emailing yourself a time date stamp of when you loaded your magazines. Most cases will be somewhere in the middle.

Now all that said, there is certainly a risk that using handloads can work against you in court. I don't think this fact escapes (most of) us. So yes. Pretty much everyone here agree it's a good idea to use factory ammo if you're ever in court (and you are innocent and have your story/recollection straight; cuz if not, the evidence might contradict you). But that won't sway every handloader to incur the cost or other perceived cons, especially the ones that don't CC on a regular basis and maybe just keep a gun on the nightstand as a last ditch to save their own bacon, vs the ones that carry daily and have every intention (or possibly part of their job description) of defending other people in need.
 
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So in the opinion of you guys who are up on this stuff:

I use handloads exclusively. The handloads in all my handguns consist of homecast bullets, nothing exotic, SWC's in the revolvers and TC's in my .45. So, given the fact that my SD loads are the same as my practice/target loads that is just cheap lead bullets made from wheelweights, am I more liable to be grilled or somehow held to a higher standard because I used these rather than some exotic, factory loaded hollowpoint "self-defense" load? Seems bass-ackwards to me.
Not trying to start an argument here, just curious and a little bewildered...

35W
 
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