Why not a SU-16 in 7.62x39?

[LooseGrouper]

First, let me apologize if this has already been discussed, but I couldn't find anything when I searched...

I'd like to see a SU-16 in 7.62x39, and here's why. I think it would make just about the perfect knock-around, all purpose rifle. I don't want to start a caliber battle royale, but I think everyone can agree that the 7.62 with well designed hunting bullets is more forgiving on deer-sized game at reasonable ranges (< 200yd). Price per round is comparable. Recoil difference is noticable but not severe. It would be lighter/smaller than any comparable rifle, as cheap/cheaper than all but the saiga and sks, and arguably more accurate than it's contemporaries (except for 7.62x39 ARs).

The only problem I see is the magazines. Do you go with the 80% solution and just use AR mags even though they have some drawbacks? Or maybe redesign to take AK mags (can an AR type release be adapted to AK mags?)? I'd say designing a brand new mag is out, since that takes away some of the Su-16 appeal.

What am I missing?

 

[DMK]

It would probably be a pretty decent rifle, assuming they use a .311 barrel.

However, this niche (non-evil looking, low cost, 7.62x39 carbine) is already filled on the market with the Ruger Mini-30, the Saiga AKs and all the cheap SKS carbines out there. It's wouldn't be a huge money maker for Kel-tec at best and probably not worth the time and investment for them.

Now the Kel-Tec SU-16 filled a niche as a low cost and accurate .223 carbine with it's closest competition being the Ruger Mini-14. The SU-16 can hold it's ground in a free market duel with the Mini-14.

 

[beerslurpy]

Because the market is filled with cheap imports and has been for years. An Su-16 in 7.62x39 would basically just be an overpriced saiga.

Better to make an SU16 in something interesting like 6.8SPC or 458 socom.

Part of me secretely desires to make an EBR that recoils even harder than the saiga-12. The 458 socom uses the existing mags, though I imagine it is a bit rough on the normal 5.56 lowers.

 

[LooseGrouper]

The SU-16's biggest selling point (for me anyway) is that it is so darned light. That's where I think nothing on the market really competes. What I'd really like is an SKS that's about 3 lbs lighter and not barrel heavy. I just thought the kel tec in 7.62 would be the closest thing that is actually a possibility.

Maybe I could just buy a SKS "paratrooper" model, fit som synthetic stocks, honeycomb the furniture, mill out all the extra metal that would still be safe, etc. Or I could go old-school and just get a marlin 336Y and add a butt pad.

Just thinking out loud...or on the net, or whatever.

 

[Crosshair]

I think the posters above have said ir best. BTW, I understand tried to make a version of the Mini-14 in .308 years ago. What happened to it?

 

[MatthewVanitas]

Maybe I could just buy a SKS "paratrooper" model, fit som synthetic stocks, honeycomb the furniture, mill out all the extra metal that would still be safe, etc.

...and it would still be cheaper than the $450 Kel-Tec would charge for an SU-47.

Looks like you answered your own questions. But I would definitely not monkey with milling the receiver: it could easily get unsafe, and it would severely damage the resell price if you ever get tired of it. And a Para SKS is hardly an oppressively heavy piece of gear.

Rock your para-project, and then post us some pics and a range report.

-MV

 

[Preacherman]

I'd dearly love a SU-16 in 7.62x39. I'd buy two! Three! I already like the cartridge, and if it could be made to take AK mags, I've got plenty of those around. It folds up into a nice compact package for transportation, and is plenty light... what's not to like?

Kel-Tec, are you listening...???

 

[bigcozy]

Ruger announced they were going to make a 308 mini, called the XGI. I have a letter announcing it going into production, but it never made it.

The SU is going to make some market penetration, no doubt. Light, accurate and cheap. A guy over at KTOG torture tested one and it did well. Kel Tec is not going to be underrated much longer.

BTW Beretta just dropped a new polymer 223 rifle on the market in Europe.

 

[Number 6]

I think in the California market such a rifle would do quite well. Granted we have SKSs galore here, but that does not mean that competition isn't a good thing, or that everyone only wants an SKS.

 

[KaceCoyote]

I'd prefer a .308 SU-30 personally.

 

[LooseGrouper]

Nice to hear that someone else(Preacherman and Number 6 at least) thinks it's a decent idea. I was begining to think I was dumb for even suggesting it.

Kace Coyote, I agree that a .308 would be even better, but only if the weight could be close to the same. They could make it to take FAL mags. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that the weight difference in the two guns would be like an AR-15 and an AR-10. I like the AR-10s, but they're just not as handy as the '15. What about the Saiga .308s vs 7.62x39? Is the weight difference proportional?

 

[KaceCoyote]

Both are .30 cal, the AK74 is lighter than a Dragunov however..which to me is a more fair comparison.

I say make it take M14 mags. It will of course have to be heavier, but it could likely still be the lightest .308 autoloader on the market.

 

[LooseGrouper]

Kace Coyote, I'm not sure I understand. Were you refering to the Saig comparisons (i.e. both being .30)? If so, I think it's a fair comparison, since I was wondering what the difference would be between a 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 in the same basic design. If you're saying that my AR is not a valid comparison, then that's fair. I've never handled an AR with a 7.62x39 upper, so I don't know if there's any noticable difference. What about a mini-30 vs an M1A (okay, I'll admit that one's pretty unfair). I agree that the AK vs Dragunov is a fair comparison if you account for barrel length differences.

Anyway, I just thought someone who's handled both Saiga's could chime in on the differences the two calibers require in an otherwise similar design.

Yes, I agree that a Kel Tec .308 would likely be the handiest .308 autoloader around. FAL or M1A mags matters little to me. I jus thought a 30 rnd option would be nice. I guess accepting stripper clips is out of the question though.

Back to the main point...I'd probably trade my mini-30 for a Su-16 in 7.62x39. Okay, maybe I'd just keep the mini and buy a Kel Tec (there's something to be said for "purty" vs _ahem_ "utilitarian") .

 

[rbernie]

The SU's adaptability to 7.62x39 has the same issue as does the AR platform - magazines. Nobody makes decent AR-platform 7.62x39 magazines, which means that KelTec would have to redesign the receiver for another mag form factor/feed angle, etc.

If the mag issue were not there, it probably wouldn't take much non-recurring engineering $$ (design/spec/make new barrel and bolt/extractor) to make the conversion happen.

 

[MrTuffPaws]

I asked them when the SU-16A first came out if they where going to go com-block, and they said no. It is a shame too. It would be a huge hit in CA (no Saigas) and most other states as well I think. I know I would buy on no matter how mad the wife would got.

 

[dfaugh]

Maybe I could just buy a SKS "paratrooper" model, fit som synthetic stocks, honeycomb the furniture, mill out all the extra metal that would still be safe, etc.

I have one (well, its an SKS-M that takes AK mags) fitted with a synthetic "Dragunov" style stock...And its still pretty heavy...But it is one of my favorite guns FWIW

 

[KaceCoyote]

The AR 15 to AR 10 is NOT a fair comparison to AK47 to Saiga. Both the AK and Saiga are already 30 caliber, where the 15 and 10 have a large caliber gap.

 

[antarti]

I'd personally love to see a light folding Keltec carbine one in .30 cal carbine, that takes m1 carbine mags.

One in .460 Rowland or 10mm auto would be nice too, but that would just be daydreaming to expect.

I'd buy a couple.

 

[LooseGrouper]

KaceCoyote

I wasn't comparing AK to Saiga .308. I was asking for thoughts on Saiga 7.62x39 vs. Saiga in .308...specifically regarding weight. If you still think that's unfair, how about a Saiga .223 vs a Saiga .308? They make them in both chamberings, correct? I guess I can see where that would still not be fair since the Saiga platform probably wasn't re-engineered a lot to take advantage of the smaller caliber when they chambered it in .223. Doesn't seem cost effective. You can consider your point made, but I'd still like to hear some anecdotal/emperical comparisons.

Don't think it matters anyway. No one seems to have much to offer on the saiga vs. saiga issue. I just found a site where they say the Saiga .308 is 4.1kg (approx 9 lb). That seems pretty standard these days fro a .308 autoloader. If Kel Tec could put it at 7.5 or even 8 lbs they'd have a winner. Probably have to reinforce that folding stock, though...

 

[DMK]

I'd like a Kel-tec SU in 7.62x54R!

I don't even care what magazines it uses.

 

[Dionysusigma]

A Photoshop job I did a while ago...

I already have an AK. Why would I want a SU-17?

 

[nfl1990]

They could make it to take FAL mags.

I think M-14 would be cheaper and more availible, you can find mil-surp 30 rounders for $10.

 

[No_Brakes23]

An excellent question, but I understand why they don't make and SU-43, (Get it? M43)

Because a 6.8 SPC Kel-Tec would be so much easier.

In fact one of the guys at KTOG has already done it.

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=105;action=display;num=1101766471

(Any AR magazine platform is begging to be chambered in 6.8 SPC. I bet Remington could make the 7615 in 6.8 SPC with out too much effort at all.)

If the SU-16 in 7.62x39mm took AK mags it might be interesting, but outside CA, NY, NJ, etc, why would anyone buy one? Because it folds? It would be an ideal truck gun if it were cheaper. (I am not saying it is overpriced, but other surplus com-bloc rifles are cheaper.)

At any rate, here in the PRK, Federal M193 and Wolf 7.62x39mm are very close in price, so my SU-16CA and SKS cost about the same to feed. So cheaper ammo is not a good reason to make one.


If you want to ask a Hows Come with regard to Kel-Tec, ask why they don't make a SUB-2000 that accepts 1911 mags.

 

[LooseGrouper]

NoBrakes

Regarding your question of why anyone in states with less restricted gun laws would buy it:

1. It's so darned light/handy
2. Tends to be more accurate than some of the more common rifles in 7.62x39 (yes, that's anecdotal, and I'm sure some sks rifles out there can give it a run for it's money.
3. Yes, it folds. I personally don't care much about that, but some might.

Seem like good reasons to me.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

I just don't see that many folks buying a SU-17 (SU-47?) for $450, when a Yugo SKS is $79.99, WASR is $300, and really nice Arsenal AK is $500.

However, if the 6.8SPC does start to catch on in a big way, Kel-Tec could score some major coolness points by being an affordable alternative to the 6.8 ARs. I'd expect Kel-Tec to be far quicker to grab the 6.8 than Ruger or Armalite (AR-180B), and the re-tooling would be limited to the barrel/boltface and some gas-system tweaking. Whereas the SU-17 would need a whole different lower made for the AK-magwell.

Pure Monday Morning Quarterbacking here, but I still submit that if KT had made the SU-16CA first, they'd have a better rep. The CA avoids the flimsy appearance that the spindly FSP (front sight post) had on the earlier models, maximizes compactness/handiness with the 16" barrel, etc. Were I KT and had a crystal ball, I'd have made the CA and the C only.

-MV