Why Not Registering Your Guns is a Mistake

[BSA1]

SilentStalker,

Thank you for your support and a very well thought out post.

 

[SilentStalker]

Thanks for the responses guys. Frank, I only know what I can remember about the Rosa Parks' story, which honestly is not a lot. I am only in my lower 30's so I didn't witness anything first hand and what I learned of the story was done in my elementary and middle school years. That was quite some time ago. However, that part is my post was not meant to be taken at face value.

As for those that think there will be confiscation, there will be no such thing as there doesn't have to be. They will simply use their political power to make owning such a thing almost impossible if not downright criminal but they will never come door to door. That's probably a fantasy. They can do things like, well nevermind, I don't want to give them any ideas lol but rest assured I doubt they would ever come door to door.

For those thinking there will be a civil war lol that is most likely fantasy also. Most people like to chest thump but would never really stand up to an oppressive force if there ever was one. Thankfully, as long as we can regain some political ground, we should never even have to think of such craziness as that.

However, I will admit that I think it is sad that we are in some instances discussing the mere fact that many if us are scared to speak our mind. We have stated in this very threas that we are scared to discuss certain things online because of a government that is obviously already too powerful. I find this very alarming but then again any citizen of this great country that thinks he is truly free needs his/her head examined. I will admit we have more freedoms than most but I would not say we were exactly free by any stretch of the means.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Frank, I only know what I can remember about the Rosa Parks' story, which honestly is not a lot. I am only in my lower 30's so I didn't witness anything first hand and what I learned of the story was done in my elementary and middle school years. That was quite some time ago. However, that part is my post was not meant to be taken at face value...

I understand, and that's quite alright.

My point really is that while Rosa Parks is frequently mentioned in these discussions, the real story is more complicated and more interesting. The Rosa Parks story also has a lot to teach us about how to effectively advocate for social and legal change.

 

[PavePusher]

Why not registering your Guns is a mistake when required by law.

A often repeated and commonly held belief among many gun owners is the reason the Government wants you to register your guns is so they know what you own when they show up at your door to take them.

Having spent probably way too much time examining these issues I do not believe this is entirely the case.

Some basic principles;

First of all I think most, if not all, Americans, regardless of political parties, share concern about the crime rate in America and believe it is much too high.

Second I think most, if not all, Americans, regardless of political parties, agree in principle that guns should be kept out of the hands of criminals.

Third most, if not all, Americans, regardless of political parties, agree that criminals need to be taken off the street. This is supported by the push across the nation for stiffer penalties such as less probation/parole, jail time and longer sentences.

Fourth Americans, even when they disagree with a particular law, are a law abiding population.

Fifth Americans respect Government authority and use peaceful means such as the ballot box and the courts to change laws.

Sixth many Americans still put pride in Individualism and nonchalant attitude towards some laws.

Now to the meat of my premise;

When laws are enacted all Americans are expected to obey them. In the case of gun owners this has included recent bans on magazine capacity, certain types of guns altogether and registering others.

The Government and Anti-gunners know that they simply do not have the resources to go the homes of registered gun owners to collect their guns.

In addition kicking in doors is dangerous and result in bad publicity.

Furthermore since they already know where those guns are they can collect them anytime they want.

MOST importantly is gun owners that register their guns are complying with the law and are NOT criminals.

HOWEVER gun owners that do NOT REGISTER their guns are presumed to be criminals since they are in violation of the law.

Criminals are subject to arrest, seizure of their guns and criminal sanctions. In addition the law may allow for seizure of all assets and paying for a defense attorney will bankrupt most people.

Thus the real strategy of the anti-gunners are;

1. Stop the import/manufacture of new firearms.
2. Enact laws that will be ignored by some gun owners.
3. Portray laws as reasonable, common sense solutions and people that do not register their guns as extremists, wackos, etc. (sound familiar?)
4. Focus on the seizure of UNREGISTERED firearms and the arrest and prosecution of the owners though routine policing activities…i.e. vehicle searches, etc.
5. Use the media to publicize these arrests and organize a propaganda campaign to informing the public.
6. The targeting of common otherwise law abiding citizens will intimidate non-complaint gun owners to get rid of their restricted/banned magazines and guns.

It is very important not to underestimate our enemies. Liberals and anti-gunners are very intelligent and sly. They have vast resources including control of the media, the education system and time.

When you have registered all your books and papers, and the clothes on your back, then-and only then-I will consider registering my guns.

By the way, Civil Disobedience has a long and valued history in keeping Government our Servant, and not our Master.

Lastly, if you think they don't intend to use registration to seize guns in the long run, I suggest you may be... naïve, at best.

 

[BSA1]

Once again it is about STRATEGY

PavePusher,

Since you cited my quotes I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.

By the way, Civil Disobedience has a long and valued history in keeping Government our Servant, and not our Master.

Somehow this thread has gone off-track from how the anti-2A folks can legal use of existing seemly common sense criminal laws on the books can have severe consequences when registering of guns is required by law to openly breaking the law(s).

In my first post I described just one strategy they may (and arguably in my opinion will use) to get gun owners to surrender their firearms.

The battle for gunowners in California has not gone well. The Libs have for years been using a multi-strategy approach to either ban firearms and effectively stop the use of firearms.

Consider for example the bill that is sitting Governor Browns desk that bans the use of lead in bullets. The campaign to portray lead as bad to the health of humans and animals started way, way back with the banning of lead in paint to protect young children who may ingest paint chips. It has led to banning of lead shot for wildlife hunting and closing of shooting ranges due to ground contamination. Now the final step left is too totally ban use of lead bullets to protect the planet for the dangers of lead poisoning.

Yet instead of replies coming with ideas to legally stop the anti-2A's many can only dwell on breaking the law through civil disobedience.

By understanding the strategies that they are/may use we can be pro-active and effectively work to stop them.

Lastly, if you think they don't intend to use registration to seize guns in the long run, I suggest you may be... naïve, at best.

Again if that comment is directed at me you clearly have not read all of comments or don't understand my points. The banning of firearm ownership by citizens and the removal of those guns from gun owners is exactly the intent of anti-2A forces and my posts.

On the hand if you are quoting my post to agree with me then I salute your insight and wisdom.

 

[goon]

On the hand if you are quoting my post to agree with me then I salute your insight and wisdom.

No offense, but you're just one more person on the internet. You're not Socrates or Gandhi.
You've gone along in this thread handing out "attaboy's" to people like you're a professor and everyone else is your student, but you're just a person with an opinion.
If someone writes a book in a hundred years about your philosophy, I guess I'll have to recant that statement. But until then, agreeing or disagreeing with you isn't a sign of wisdom. We're all just a bunch of people who think what we think.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves here ladies and gents...

However, I will admit that I think it is sad that we are in some instances discussing the mere fact that many if us are scared to speak our mind. We have stated in this very threas that we are scared to discuss certain things online because of a government that is obviously already too powerful. I find this very alarming but then again any citizen of this great country that thinks he is truly free needs his/her head examined. I will admit we have more freedoms than most but I would not say we were exactly free by any stretch of the means.

I also find that very alarming. It's part of why I'm voting libertarian and hoping like hell that it takes a bit of a hold. Doesn't even have to be big hold, just enough to rattle some cages and get the bigger parties back in line.

 

[BSA1]

Goon,

My "opinions" are no less valid than your assumption that I am a "guy."

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Well 90% of mine were made before 1968 GCA or bought in private sales and gifted my extended family from dead kinfolks. So I am not too worried about it.

 

[goon]

Goon,

My "opinions" are no less valid than your assumption that I am a "guy."

Correction... Person.

And of course they're not.
But they're no more valid than anyone else's either.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them a fool.
And just because they agree doesn't make them "wise."

In fact, when everyone starts thinking the same way, that's a pretty good sign that no one is thinking at all.
Food for thought.

 

[45_auto]

Sounds like to me that you're starting with a bunch of false premises and assumptions.

First of all I think most, if not all, Americans, regardless of political parties, share concern about the crime rate in America and believe it is much too high.

Not sure here you're getting your "thoughts", but I would guess that most, if not all, Americans, believe that ANY crime at all is too high.

The reality is that crime rates have been dropping drastically for the last 20 years, although most Americans believe otherwise. I attribute this to the spread of cable TV and 24 hour news channels. There's an old saying in journalism "if it bleeds it leads". I can see how TV blasting crimes in your face around the clock could lead to that impression.



http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...-you-may-think-crime-rate-is-down.html?pg=all

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-1

Second I think most, if not all, Americans, regardless of political parties, agree in principle that guns should be kept out of the hands of criminals.

Good thought there, although I would submit that it depends on how you define a "criminal".

crim·i·nal
ˈkrimənl/Submit
noun
1. a person who has committed a crime.

I would bet that there are very few Americans out there of driving age or older who have not "committed a crime" (broken some minor law) in their lifetime. You think most Americans agree that someone who gets a speeding ticket for 74 MPH in a 70 MPH speed zone shouldn't be able to have a gun? I very seriously doubt if most Americans would agree with you.

Third most, if not all, Americans, regardless of political parties, agree that criminals need to be taken off the street. This is supported by the push across the nation for stiffer penalties such as less probation/parole, jail time and longer sentences.

Depends on how you define a criminal. There are many "victimless" crimes that will get you classified as a criminal and taken off the street. You going to take that guy with the 74 in a 70 speeding ticket "off the street"?

Fourth Americans, even when they disagree with a particular law, are a law abiding population.

What makes you think that? Do you realize that the US has a higher percentage of it's population in jail than any other country? If the US population is so law abiding, why are a bigger percentage of them in jail than any other country?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate

Fifth Americans respect Government authority and use peaceful means such as the ballot box and the courts to change laws.

Iraq and Afghanistan as well as a bunch of civil war ghosts would probably disagree with you on that one.

Sixth many Americans still put pride in Individualism and nonchalant attitude towards some laws.

Maybe that's why so many of them are in jail.

 

[goon]

45_auto - Though you're correct about the overall trend, I checked the crime stats before getting involved in this thread and violent crime rates did rise slightly in 2012.
I'm not suggesting a correlation or cause/effect relationship with guns or any relationship at all - just saying that when I checked the statistics that's what I read.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...-in-the-u.s.-2012/violent-crime/violent-crime

Still, what that has got to do with registration was never explained to my satisfaction in this discussion.

 

[SilentStalker]

Eh, again, I really think BSA1 is trying to find ways to combat the anti's current regime that has taken pretty good steps towards overthrowing the rights of gun owners over the years. Again, I don't think the delivery is the best but registration and all of that is really secondary to what his/her thread is trying to focus on.

However, since we are talking about it registration is a stupid idea for many reason already pointed out numerous times in this very thread. It's not going to solve or lower any crime at all. If they do come seize all guns that's not going to deter crime either. As long as there is a free thinking people then there will always be crime, unfortunately. That's why I say it comes to the individual. A lot of the individuals decision has to do with society and how one is raised but the fact is there will always be crime to some extent. The best way to fight this IMo is on the family front. It has to start there.

As far as America having more people in prison than any other country perhaps that is just a result of more ridiculous laws that imprison people that really shouldn't be there while hardened criminals continue to be released at alarming levels. It also doesn't help that we have illegals from all over the globe clogging the system either. They know this will cause it to fail. It's the same way in war or anything else. If you completely overwhelm the enemy to the point where they cannot organize and mobilize a front then any resistance will collapse from its own inability to act effectively. That's what we see going on in this country on an alarming level. Pretty much every facet of government is so overwhelmed with problems that they do not know what to do from financial concerns to illegals they don't have a clue what to do so its slowly but surely falling apart. All they are doing is buying time, just like they are doing with these budgets. They don't know how to solve the problem so they just keep extending the credit line so to speak. It's collapsing, whether this is by design or not is still up for debate but the fact is someone thinks that coming after gun owners must be part of the plan for whatever reason. The only way for there ever to be peace would be for everyone to be on an equal playing field and unfortunately that's just not possible. You could try but it always fails. It goes back to yen and yang. You can't have one without the other. It's just the way it is. However, I think you could level it somewhat to ease the situation. Anyways I am starting to go off topic. The truth is registration will not work in the way they want it to. It will not make anyone safer. If anything it gives those already with so much power even more leverage. Not good. Again, need I remind you that our fore fathers who built this great nation decided long ago that some laws are just unlawful and that the right thing to do was to not follow those laws. Again, it comes down to the individual. Not all men are necessarily made equal. Some have more heart than others etc. etc.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

In fact, when everyone starts thinking the same way, that's a pretty good sign that no one is thinking at all.
Food for thought.

Oh, PLEASE tell me it's OK to put this up as my "Quote of the Week" at work!

 

[SilentStalker]

^^^^Hahaha.

 

[goon]

Oh, PLEASE tell me it's OK to put this up as my "Quote of the Week" at work!

Actually, that line of thinking doesn't belong to me. Picked it up when I was in uniform.
I'm sure the cranky NCO I learned it from wouldn't mind it being recycled where appropriate.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Actually, that line of thinking doesn't belong to me. Picked it up when I was in uniform.
I'm sure the cranky NCO I learned it from wouldn't mind it being recycled where appropriate.

Dad had a similar philosophy when it came to politics. His opinion was that neither political party could be trusted to be in power (meaning "in control" with respect to being the majority) for too long and if they were in power too long, then you had better start worrying.

And this coming from a man who was very definitely NOT of a liberal persuasion in politics.

 

[goon]

Your dad sounds like a man I could get along with... lol.

 

[SilentStalker]

^^^^Me too!

 

[BSA1]

Same goal just different paths

I think some (respect to xxjumbojimboxx) of us agree that the ultimate goal of anti-2A folks is the elimination of private ownership of all firearms. One of the key points of my posts is to point out there are many different paths they can take to get to that goal.

Registration is one of them that gets the most attention.

On another thread I commented on how the campaign that started many years ago to eliminate lead based paint for children health reasons has progressed to the bill in California that is on Governor Brown’s desk to ban use of lead in bullets to save wildlife from being poisoned to death by consuming lead from shotgun shot and bullets.

Same goal just a different path to get there.

When it comes to politics public perception is more important than the facts especially with Liberals and low information voters. Thus anti-gun politicians and a willing media constantly preach about rising crime rate, violent crimes and crimes committed by disturbed people with a gun. Look at what usually leads the local TV news. In my viewing area they are bad traffic accidents and violent crime stories.

I watched the movie “Rough Riders” last night. The point was made several times was how William Randolph Hearst printed outright lies to push America into war.

"The people will believe a big lie, but not a small lie."

p.s. RetiredUSNChief your Dad is right.

 

[rdhood]

I think some (respect to xxjumbojimboxx) of us all agree that the ultimate goal of anti-2A folks is the elimination of private ownership of all firearms.

And BSA1 FINALLY writes something that we can all agree on.

 

[BSA1]

And it only took 169 posts to get there!

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

I had to read back and tey to recall why the name drop ... thanks for considering m feelings about blanket statements! You sir are a gentleman indeed... indeed