Why should they care?

[pittspilot]

Folks,

Lot of pontificating about the Republicans forthcoming response to anticipated gun control legislation. But what about this?

Even though the Republicans:

1) Allowed the AWB to sunset even though 60% of the electorate wanted it.
2) Had an AG that explicitly recognized that the 2nd Amendment was an individual right repudiating decades of the Milita argument
3) Under Republicans the vast majority of states became shall issue.
4) Civil immunity for manufacturers deterring a mortal threat.
5) No significant gun control legislation passed during Republican control of Congress.

So please explain to me, why the Republicans should continue to support a constituency that walked away from them this past November 7th, and either voted Liberterian, or in some cases, voted for the Democrat?

 

[Gifted]

Like I said elsewhere, you can point your finger to me when the LP outnumbers the people who didn't vote.

1) Passive response, the real job was done in '94 in getting the sunset. A bill to remove the code from the law would have been better(as I understand it, the ban is still there, but the sunset clause says it can't do anything).
2) Good point, but he's not AG anymore. What's the new guy got to say about it?
3)I could try and argue about this being on the state level, but I'll concede it.
4 & 5) But no legislation REPEALED. There's a number of things on the books that could have been repealed, but they didn't touch it, aside from the immunity law(which did have some poison in it). There's a dozen small things they could have done, and a dozen ways to package it to look good, that they didn't do.

These combined with intrusions on other rights, I'd ask, not why they should support us, but why we should support them? That's how it is, really. They squandered the oppurtunity on several fronts, and got the dessert waiting for them. Unfortunately, this seems to be how it works. Back and forth, with little good happening as the two main parties argue over the center line on the road to tyranny. The R's will try and rally for '08, but who knows if they'll convince us again.

 

[Mark Whiteman]

Ditto on the lack of aggressive efforts to trash past legislative outrages. Bush, along with many Rs were notably soft on many basic conservative issues, and impressed nobody but some centrist fence-sitters. Stating he'd sign a renewal to the AWB if one was sent to him was pretty much the end of it for me, and RINO has become more commonplace in the conservative vocabulary as a result. What happened to all those "conservatives" who were spewing forth their rhetoric not so long ago? They sure weren't sticking to what they said they'd be doing (with the usual exceptions). We just saw what that got them.

 

[mbt2001]

Gifted, I agree with you totally.

The people wanted something done on immigration and Bushco pandered to the corporations. We only got civil immunity for firearms makers because they themselves are corporations.

All of the rights that you and I have are under attack from these monkies and they DID SQUAT on firearms. Why? Why should I expect ANYTHING from them in the future?

The democratic party delivers! AS much as I hate everything they propone, they deliver! They have wacko nutjobs and they pander to them... The bow down to them...

I want the Republican's to do the same. I want serious and aggressive moves on the RKBA

-Remove "A well regulated militia" from the 2nd Amendment
-roll back NFA and other stupid gun laws that limit the amount of screws in a receiver and length of barrels

THE HIGH ROAD should start an open letter to the Repubs...

 

[Justin]

FWIW, gun control was not a hot-button issue in this election.

In no particular order the war, the economy, and general Republican malfeasance and incompetence were.

Let's face it, the Republicans blew it.

They outspent LBJ and then tried to distract us with Terry Schiavo, gay marriage, and flag burning.

 

[buzz_knox]

Pittspilot, you've gotten your answer. The Reps shouldn't care because gunowners don't care. Nothing will ever be good enough for us, and the story is "the Reps didn't do anything; and what they did was meaningless." It's really the same thing as thing as the NRA getting slammed for being do nothing fools who are only interested in money. Anything they do is discredited or chalked up as part of a conspiracy to keep themselves going.

What's funny is that for years, we'd argued that these issues should be left to the states. That the individual states should govern their own gun control laws, so California can't tell Tennessee what to do. Yet, let our people get in, and they get castrated for not using the full might of the feds on our behalf. Gee, didn't we whine at the Dems for doing that some years back?

Frankly, we're losing this fight, and we have only ourselves to blame. We are almost cannibalistic, preying on each other in a rush to get everything now. That doesn't operate in any other aspect of our lives but when it comes to this, the slow path (proven most effective recently by the Dems in their return to power and the eventual success of their anti-gun campaign) is ignored.

 

[longeyes]

We are almost cannibalistic, preying on each other in a rush to get everything now. That doesn't operate in any other aspect of our lives but when it comes to this, the slow path (proven most effective recently by the Dems in their return to power and the eventual success of their anti-gun campaign) is ignored.

You are saying we need to fight a long, gradualist war to "win back" what the Second Amendment already protects?

 

[buzz_knox]

You are saying we need to fight a long, gradualist war to "win back" what the Second Amendment already protects?

We need to fight the war like it's a war. When pressure on this issue or any other issue (gun control being an area where compromises over more "important" issues is made) is highest, you hold firm and make what advances you can. Sometimes, just holding the line is enough. When pressure is lessened or you find an advantage, you press forward. That's the way wars are fought, and the reason why we are losing. Everytime our side tries this, they are condemned as traitors. Everytime the other side does it, they are encouraged to do more. They are also given credit by many (including myself) for fighting the war strategically, not tactically.

Think of it this way. In WWII, the Japanese wanted a definitive battle to decide the war. Their entire strategy was based on arranging and winning that engagement. The Americans fought strategically and flexibly, keeping the line in place while striking out where they could. As a result, the Japanese kept getting out maneuvered and ground down. They had prepared for the victory, but not for achieving the victory.

Politics is the art of war by means other than direct conflict. If we don't start looking at it that way, we'll continue getting our butts handed to us.

And to top it off, that's just the war over what laws get passed. The real battle over what the Second Amendment means will be fought in the public arena, with people deciding it does or does not guarantee what it says it does. And the strategic approach is how the Dems are back in power. Using the Third Way to gun control they've been advocating, they stayed quiet on the issue, and got everyone to believe that they are not touching your firearms . . . even when they've promised to do just that for years, and the new leadership is renewing cries to do it.

 

[junyo]

You are saying we need to fight a long, gradualist war to "win back" what the Second Amendment already protects?

There's what it protects on paper and what it effectively protects in the real world. To get the latter closer to the former you can stomp your feet and pout, adapting an 'all or nothing' stance or you can win the battles you can, and accept progress where you can make it.

We need to fight the war like it's a war.

Obviously you don't understand how idealogical purity is more important than results...

 

[buzz_knox]

Obviously you don't understand how idealogical purity is more important than results...

Unfortunately, I do. A lot of the debates remind me of Mao's Great Leap Forward, where ideology would insure that backyard foundries would increase industrial capacity. Worked great.

 

[DogBonz]

I think that it had more to do with...

1. intrusions on other rights.
2. I think that more than usual amount of the "anyone but bush" crowd turned out to vote.

 

[arthurcw]

You are saying we need to fight a long, gradualist war to "win back" what the Second Amendment already protects?

If he is, I have to agree. And don't think it doesn't P**S me off! I'd rather have a big nock down drag out winner take all and be done with it. But that's not how wars are fought. And this is war, make no mistake.

The truth is that the Constitution is just paper. Without the Culture to back it up, it is a smelly page with writing on it in fancy hermetically sealed doodad.

Without the Culture willing to defend that piece of paper, you will never get back the rights we should have. You can pass all the laws or repeal all the laws you want, but what is to stop the next batch of yahoos from just rolling that back too. You wind up with a tug of war too close to their goal line that we can not win.

You have to win the culture war. That war is fought over time and very slowly. The Eugenicists that fawned over abortion in the early 1900's to get rid of "human weeds" are dead and gone. But the world they envisioned is alive and well. They knew it would take decades and it did. They've won. Hell, we even fought a war against Eugenicists and won it. But they just kept right on coming and ground us down. They've won to the point that it is accepted as a "Constitutional Right" when it should be a moral matter for the States.

Our "Social Betters" have wanted guns out of our hands for years. They have put in a decades old fight that has paid off for them. They have not won, but are darn close to turning the tide once and for all.

We can't just think that one large fight can solve the problem. It's a slow grinding Culture war and we are far behind.

The sad part is that it NEVER ends. You can not assume just because you won today’s election or today’s political battle that you have won the war. There is only one possible victory. Theirs. It sucks, but it's true. They have a finite goal, the Complete and utter removal of all arms from the masses. We have an infinite goal, the ability to maintain arms for ever. They have a finish line, we do not. Freedom never does. We have to stop thinking in terms of a finite victory and realize that we are never safe.

You have to push them back to the point that they are constantly starting from scratch or near scratch. But even then, they will not die out. Their will always be an elite class that sees the armed masses as a threat to their rightful power.

 

[longeyes]

Without the Culture willing to defend that piece of paper, you will never get back the rights we should have. You can pass all the laws or repeal all the laws you want, but what is to stop the next batch of yahoos from just rolling that back too. You wind up with a tug of war too close to their goal line that we can not win.

You have to win the culture war.

The culture war--if you're talking about America as a whole--was lost long ago. Maybe it was the yuppies, maybe it was America's shift away from an agrarian nation after WW II, maybe it was death of Annie Oakley. Gunowners and RKBA believers are as anachronistic as Americans who hold to the vision of the Founding Fathers. Day by day we are losing our sovereighty, the rule of law, the meaning of citizenship, the sanctity of private property, and the value of suffrage. There is no salvation in trying to pretend that as a unified country we are going to prevail. Shore up what you can where you can.

 

[carlrodd]

The culture war--if you're talking about America as a whole--was lost long ago. Maybe it was the yuppies, maybe it was America's shift away from an agrarian nation after WW II, maybe it was death of Annie Oakley. Gunowners and RKBA believers are as anachronistic as Americans who hold to the vision of the Founding Fathers. Day by day we are losing our sovereighty, the rule of law, the meaning of citizenship, the sanctity of private property, and the value of suffrage. There is no salvation in trying to pretend that as a unified country we are going to prevail. Shore up what you can where you can.

100% agreed. sometimes i sit, thinking about the future, and what hope there is for our country to rediscover what it was intended to be, and the collectively accepted values that once made it strong. then i realize, it's not going to happen. the universe is constantly moving outward, and so are we as a people; outward from where we started, and there is no going back. apparently it's a process, once started that cannot be stopped. i think to myself, 'if the government simply goes to far....infringes upon something that most everyone holds dear, will we act?' the answer is no. for one, those things i think people should all be holding dear, are not by most anymore. and secondly, there are simply too few that will be willing to make any great sacrifice, no matter what they hold dear. relative safety, wealth and comfort have lulled us to sleep as a nation.

 

[tellner]

So they let an unpopular law sunset even though The Decider said he'd sign it given a chance. They said a lot of words to make people feel all warm and fuzzy but didn't do one single thing to advance gun-owners' rights even with the White House and both parts of the Legislature. They passed a special little perk for retired cops but left the rest of us twisting in the wind on CCW. They passed a law to protect their industry buddies but nothing that set a better legal standard of protection for the rest of us.

yippee. The Republicans are our friends. Honest.

 

[Gordon Fink]

Who is asking for the single, decisive battle? Did anyone submit a bill to open the NFA registry, to lift the import ban, or to recognize full faith and credit for CCW permits? No? I guess the Republicans were too busy trying to write homophobia into the Constitution and to force-feed the brain dead.

The Republicans had their moment and wasted it.

~G. Fink

 

[buzz_knox]

They passed a law to protect their industry buddies but nothing that set a better legal standard of protection for the rest of us.

Yup. They were out to screw us. After all, if their industry buddies went under due to fighting frivilous lawsuits or decided to stay out of the civilian market, we'd just take our business . . . tell me again where we would take our business? And wouldn't they have had the bill sooner if they'd just passed the version with the Democrat AWB renewal, rather than killing the bill? How much money would they have saved their buddies if they'd just screwed us a little harder?

Look guys, you've now got a chance to prove everyone wrong. Just get your Dem friends to pass those bills you want. Just ask them to do half of what the Republicans did (including state CCW and castle doctrines passed under Rep administrations). I'm sure you'll get a wonderful response. I won't ask you to post the response here because beyond their laughter, I don't think Art's grandma would appreciate their describing what you can go do with yourself.

 

[Gifted]

What's funny is that for years, we'd argued that these issues should be left to the states. That the individual states should govern their own gun control laws, so California can't tell Tennessee what to do. Yet, let our people get in, and they get castrated for not using the full might of the feds on our behalf. Gee, didn't we whine at the Dems for doing that some years back?

The problem here is that these issues have been taken up on the federal level, and must be removed from the federal level before they can be state issues. Until NFA, GCA, etc. are removed, it WILL be a federal fight. The Libertarians talk the talk, and have every intention of walking the walk. The Repubs have thus far talked little, and hardly walked at all. We held the line for a while, and then we had the opurtunity to strike, and with more than some perks for retired cops and some tort reform that should have been across the board. They didn't. Now the most we can hope for is a sunset clause on the next ban when it comes.

I agree with the culture war. Perhaps the NRA should be focusing on that? Anyone see any commercials on TV that try to tell people the truth? Or special "gun education days"? Or some crap that would work to counter the propaganda that's pouring out of the mass media?

 

[buzz_knox]

Until NFA, GCA, etc. are removed, it WILL be a federal fight.

If the goal is to eliminate those before removing it to the state level, you need to turn in your firearms. People don't understand what is wrong with those laws, so they just think attempts to overturn them are fringe movements, in the same way that the efforts to overrule Roe are considered to be fringe by many, even many on this board.

I agree with the culture war. Perhaps the NRA should be focusing on that? Anyone see any commercials on TV that try to tell people the truth? Or special "gun education days"? Or some crap that would work to counter the propaganda that's pouring out of the mass media?

Well, don't count on that for the next 2-12 years. The NRA is going to have its hands full dealing with the aftermath of Nov. 7, 2006. Getting those sunset clauses you asked for. This battle for the culture war will be largely in our hands. But as divided as the gun community is on how to fight it, what the tactics are, or even what should count as an accomplishment, I think we are starting from a losing position.

 

[ArmedBear]

I'd ask, not why they should support us, but why we should support them?

Because grownups realize that self-destructive temper tantrums generally accomplish the exact opposite of what we want?

We had a corrupt spendthrift Congress run by porkmeisters, but it didn't take any of our gun rights away. (There are other issues, but this thread is about gun rights.)

Now, we have a corrupt spendthrift Congress run by porkmeisters, and it's got its sights on our gun rights.

Gee, I'm glad we got rid of those Republicans.

 

[tinygnat219]

want the Republican's to do the same. I want serious and aggressive moves on the RKBA

-Remove "A well regulated militia" from the 2nd Amendment
-roll back NFA and other stupid gun laws that limit the amount of screws in a receiver and length of barrels

Sorry, I have to respond to this. Don't remove ANYTHING from the Bill of Rights. The right for individuals to bear arms is in there. Remove one, you can remove another.

The Republicans deserved what they got. Goes to show you what idiocy and abuse of power can bring.

 

[buzz_knox]

The Republicans deserved what they got. Goes to show you what idiocy and abuse of power can bring.

Absolutely agreed. And I trust that you agree that we are about to get what we deserved?

We forgot our responsibility as citizens. We forgot to hold their feet to the fire. We forgot to make our issues THE issues in the primaries. We forgot to bug the holy crap out of OUR representatives so that they would go along just to placate us. So how about rather than beating our chests about what the Republicans did or didn't do, and having selective memory at to what they did or spinning it pretty thoroughly, why don't we take this collective energy and use it to fight the Hyper Libs? I mean, I know that bashing the party that's leaving is a cool and safe thing to do as we prepare to welcome the party of gun control, but how about doing the less safe thing and actually working to tell the party of gun control to find something else to pick on?

By the way, tinygnat219, the forgoing rant was directed specifically at you. It was directed at every person who whined for 6 years (including myself) but didn't call or e-mail every Senator, Rep, or even the White House about the issues that put us in the situation we are today. To every person who didn't say to heck with propriety and prove the people lying here or elsewhere about what was going on were just that, liars.

We thought our rights were safe. We were liars. We got caught up in being aligned with the party in control, and we forgot they would be out of power soon enough.

I guess the question now is whether we: 1) fight and 2) if so, do we fight with a plan for success or just keep blustering our way to utter defeat?

 

[Sharps-shooter]

Not your friends

The republican politicians are not your friends. They aren't there to watch over your constitutional rights. Neither are the Democrats. They go to work for the same reason as most other people-- because they get paid money, and they like money.

This means staying popular enough with their constituency to get re-elected, and more importantly, it means passing bills that will further their business interests and investments, and those of their social grou (sort of a favor network). The only difference in this regard between politicians of one party or another, is who their favor network, and their constituency, consist of.

To make matters worse, top politicians don't always know what their constituency wants. This is because very wealthy people tend to move in very elite social circles. Life is different for them, and they are not in contact with a lot of "regular" people. Remember when Bush I went into a grocery store, and he'd never seen a laser barcode scanner before? Or when Bob Dole made his ill-fated remark about the "Brooklyn Dodgers" winning the world series? They might as well live on the moon, for all they are aware of the "average" american.

The point is, no matter what your political beliefs are, you can't just sit back and let the top politicians take care of it for you. Unless you own a corporation with lots of government contracts. You are your own dog, whatever that means.

 

[ksnecktieman]

I think it is simple. we as Americans want gun control. Even here in this firearm lovers forum. We want gun control for "the other guy" and "the other guys weapons". We want a permission slip from the government to carry a concealed weapon for ourselves. But, we will accept and even approve rejecting "the other guy".

If you doubt this, we recently hashed it out over many pages of opinions, If you are patient, and have some time to read it, it is here.



http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=229560&highlight=nuclear+weapons

 

[ArmedBear]

The republican politicians are not your friends. They aren't there to watch over your constitutional rights. Neither are the Democrats. They go to work for the same reason as most other people-- because they get paid money, and they like money.

Bingo!

That said, as an adult, I'll take the ones who get their money by supporting what I want, most of the time.

They also want POWER, though. Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, et al. don't need money. They want to tell you and me what to do because it does something for their particular psychologies.

Money seems to be the Republicans' weakness; power the Democrats'.

Money's safer. You can buy off someone who wants money. One who wants power over other people, for its own sake, can't be bought, except with our freedom.