Why so many hunting rifles with proprietary detachable magazines?

[jmorris]

Magneto speed made a 3rd 223/556 magazine that fit in a proprietary grip...

With all the stuff that sells, I figured it wouldn't have floopped.

 

[benEzra]

Seems like a lot of hunting rifles come with a detachable magazine that is (usually) a proprietary design are can be difficult to locate replacements or spares. Given that fast reloads while hunting is not a high priority, why do manufacturers of many rifles choose to use detachable magazines?

A couple reasons. First, many of us Gen-X and younger learned to shoot on detachable-magazine guns, mostly own and are familiar with detachable-magazine guns, and prefer the ability to easily load/unload or carry a spare mag, vs. the ability to have a smooth-bottomed rifle. Speaking for myself, I would happily pay >$100 more for a bolt-action rifle that used common detachable mags instead of fixed mags, though in the current market I wouldn’t have to.

I think much of the rhetoric about detachable mags comes from folks who are not roaming around the woods with a rifle but only from their vehicle to the bench.

About 80% of gun owners are nonhunters, and a lot of those are getting into bolt rifles for target shooting, centerfire plinking, stretching the range a little vs. smaller-caliber semiautos, or are maybe thinking about hunting in the future but their primary interest is marksmanship /or load development rather than shooting deer from a tree stand. Nothing wrong with that.

My man its a hunting rifle. I have plenty of tactical type rifles with detachable magazines, but realistically nobody is "operating" with a bolt action deer gun where they need to be doing quick mag changes. I'd be willing to bet that in 20-30 years half the used rifles on the shelves will be missing the magazine because the owner lost it somewhere along the way.

If they are common-pattern detachable mags, replacing them will be as simple as grabbing a new one from Academy for twenty or thirty bucks. But woe be unto you if you lose a proprietary magazine, for sure.

How about the Mini-14? Proprietary magazine there with some aftermarket support that most internet forum pundits will claim do not work (not been my limited experience). Nobody has to buy the Mini-14, and while I certainly wouldn't see the rationale of a military doing it, they seem to be extraordinarily popular. Despite being overshadowed by the "American Rifle," an awful lot of people have a Mini and 50 years of being saddled with a proprietary magazine hasn't killed it.

It certainly hasn’t helped. A mini-14 Ranch Rifle was my first centerfire rifle, and the major thorns in my side over the years I owned it were its inaccuracy (188-series accuracy lemon, shot about 4MOA) and its proprietary mags. The latter didn’t affect me too much until the idiotic 1994 Clinton/Feinstein law jacked the price of proprietary mags through the roof, and quality took a dive. ARs, AKs, FALs, and other users of standardized magazines had piles of dirt-cheap mags available 1994-2004, but finding reliable replacement mags for a mini-14 was extraordinarily difficult and expensive during those times, and I think one reason why its popularity took a dive compared to the AR platform during that time (the others being its lack of modularity, and the fact that its price rose over time while the price of AR’s has fallen considerably).

 

[CraigC]

About 80% of gun owners are nonhunters, and a lot of those are getting into bolt rifles for target shooting, centerfire plinking, stretching the range a little vs. smaller-caliber semiautos, or are maybe thinking about hunting in the future but their primary interest is marksmanship /or load development rather than shooting deer from a tree stand. Nothing wrong with that.

No but folks should keep in mind that not everybody is doing what they're doing with their rifles, which goes both ways. I see more "Fudd" comments towards folks that prefer a blind mag or floorplate than anything in the other direction. Like post #28.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

I just leave the detachable magazine in the gun, LOL.

A person who buys a rifle with an attached magazine so that s/he won't forget said magazine is the same sort of person who would then forget to bring ammo for the rifle with the attached magazine. With that said, I have had people show up from Dallas to shoot on my range, after a 90 minute drive, only to realize they forgot their guns. I had a guy show up for a 1000 round pistol match that forgot his ammo. Those people are definitely out there.

I guess we can't all be perfect. You should feel blessed. And if you leave it in the gun then it's no different than having one with an attached magazine to begin with.

 

[JDGray]

Blind mags suck, well at least the one on my Savage did! Ran 100% after changing out to a detachable. My X-bolt flush mag is perfect in function, and rounds don’t fall everywhere when I remove it like the hinged floor plate rifles do.

 

[benEzra]

No but folks should keep in mind that not everybody is doing what they're doing with their rifles, which goes both ways. I see more "Fudd" comments towards folks that prefer a blind mag or floorplate than anything in the other direction. Like post #28.

Yep, I 100% agree that isn’t helpful or applicable here. Traditionalists who prefer classic lines are as welcome to their preferences as anyone else.

I would reserve the “Fudd” moniker strictly for those who believe nonhunting guns/owners are illegitimate/inferior or who support bans on guns they don’t like, and I don’t see any of that in this thread.

 

[dh1633pm]

I don’t think it’s about profits. Think it’s about expediency.

 

[LoonWulf]

I just leave the detachable magazine in the gun, LOL.

A person who buys a rifle with an attached magazine so that s/he won't forget said magazine is the same sort of person who would then forget to bring ammo for the rifle with the attached magazine. With that said, I have had people show up from Dallas to shoot on my range, after a 90 minute drive, only to realize they forgot their guns. I had a guy show up for a 1000 round pistol match that forgot his ammo. Those people are definitely out there.

Me! I forget bolts semi regularly, mags now and then, forgot my CM rounds this morning....cant go anywhere without forgetting something....

 

[3Crows]

I do not have a problem with the detachable magazine as long as they are built to last the life of the rifle, are easy to get a spare and are importantly flush to the bottom of the rifle.

 

[Barnfixer]

When my Dad passed I took ownership of his guns. For old time sake in used his 742 for the following deer season. I started the season with 2 magazines and ended with one. Sometime the following year I found the lost one by a pasture fence, the same spot I crawled through during deer season. Lucked out! I and magazines have had a sketchy relationship.

 

[MZ5]

Blind mags suck, well at least the one on my Savage did! My X-bolt flush mag is perfect in function, and rounds don’t fall everywhere when I remove it like the hinged floor plate rifles do.

I agree that blind magazines are terrible for competition guns, and I dislike them even for hunting because of the tedium of unloading. The exception is the 'blind' en bloc clip on the M1. It will spit those out at the push of a button.
(-:

--For my competition guns, I want DBMs _of a standard pattern_ (like AI- or AR-pattern).

--For my hunting rifles, I want hinged floorplates. I really like the old A-bolt II's detachable box mag that snaps onto the hinged floorplate. It's the best of both worlds, to me, but not a big advantage over a plain hinged floorplate.

 

[danez71]

This is the shortest AR magazine I have seen, as mentioned in my previous post.

The very bottom of the magazine sits on top of the magazine catch.

View attachment 1189337
My personal collection of short AR magazines: Left to right: Straight 20rd (ref), Rock River 9rd 223/556 , 10rd Magpul Pmag (I tried to convert to 4rd 450 Bushmaster), a DPMS 4rd 450 Bushmaster, Remington 4rd 30 Remington AR.

View attachment 1189338
9rd magazine in an ar, that is about 5/8 inch hanging down.

Thanks...

In regards to the 9 rnd Rock River... that looks like the Surefeed 10rnd.

Could you pleeeaassssse double check and take a pic of how the base plate attaches?

I've though about using the Surefeed and put a flat base on it for a Ruger American Ranch 4-6 round mag



I don't mind it sticking out some but a normal 10 rnd AR mag is pretty gangly walking around with a bolt gun and not needing 7-9 quick follow up shots

 

[BreechFace]

Here's a "flush fit" ProMag. I would change out the follower to a MagPul anti-tilt.

Can't find any pictures or length description, to verify "flush fit" claims.

ProMag AR-15 .223 5 Round Magazine - Flush Fit, Blued Finish

This magazine body is made of heat treated steel with a black oxide finish for durability in the field. Purchase this AR-15 .223 5 round magazine here.

www.midsouthshooterssupply.com

Edit: I can't even find it on ProMag's website anymore, maybe they discontinued it.

 

[mcb]

Thanks...

In regards to the 9 rnd Rock River... that looks like the Surefeed 10rnd.

Could you pleeeaassssse double check and take a pic of how the base plate attaches?

I've though about using the Surefeed and put a flat base on it for a Ruger American Ranch 4-6 round mag



I don't mind it sticking out some but a normal 10 rnd AR mag is pretty gangly walking around with a bolt gun and not needing 7-9 quick follow up shots

I confirmed this is a 9rd magazine. There is no way you can get that 10th rd in there. It came with my first AR, bought back in ~2007 from Rock River Arms. I assumed that RRA did not make it, so I did some digging around and figured out it is manufactured by Colt (I might have to throw it away for that... ). Colt might still be making them. I found them listed though not in-stock at MagGunWarehouse and a few other places (If it maters I have had good service from MagGun in the past): https://gunmagwarehouse.com/colt-sporter-ar-15-223-5-56-9-round-aluminum-magazine.html That said they do not show up on Colt's website.

Hope that helps a little.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Detachable magazines are great for loading and unloading. Racking multiple live rounds through a firearm after a hunt isn’t my favorite thing to do. Also, it’s nice to insert the mag, rack in a round and be ready to go. I realize it’s isn’t a big thing, but if there’s and easier way, why not?

As for being proprietary, from what I’ve read there is considerable engineering that goes into producing a firearm that has consistent, reliable feeding. Using existing magazines would most likely introduce issues.

Most of the bolt rifles before magazines became popular had a floor plate with a latch on it. Slide the latch and the spring and floor plate dropped out with the remaining ammo. Although magazines are simpler to operate they are expensive if you have to replace one. Some older magazines are non existent at any price which makes the rifle useless.

But you probably already knew that.

 

[redneck2]

At present I own seven rifles. Six have detachable mags. Half of those are proprietary

Guys seem to have no issues with pistols that have magazines

 

[Crosshair]

The AR magazine is a textbook example of why there isn't such a "standard". It's flimsy, weak, and the source of most malfunctions. (This is of course due it it originally being effectively one-time use.) Were it not a "standard", nobody would use it in new designs.

Properly designed magazines will last as long as the gun. So the issue of "proprietary" is irrelevant.

 

[BreechFace]

The AR magazine is a textbook example of why there isn't such a "standard". It's flimsy, weak, and the source of most malfunctions. (This is of course due it it originally being effectively one-time use.) Were it not a "standard", nobody would use it in new designs.

Yeah, would have to disagree...

Especially, today's version of the STANAG magazine with the anti-tilt followers. If AR magazines were babied like proprietary magazines, they would also last the life of the firearm. But they are not they are ran hard and put away wet; why? Because they are cheap due to the massive economies of scale afforded the AR15.

Are there unreliable, junk STANAG magazines, yes. But, buy a OKAY Industries, D&H, MagPul, Lancer magazine and they really are just great magazines with refinements along the way that have improved on the already good design.

 

[benEzra]

The AR magazine is a textbook example of why there isn't such a "standard". It's flimsy, weak, and the source of most malfunctions. (This is of course due it it originally being effectively one-time use.) Were it not a "standard", nobody would use it in new designs.

Properly designed magazines will last as long as the gun. So the issue of "proprietary" is irrelevant.

But it *is* standardized under STANAG 4179, and because it is widely used across many families of rifles, there is a bustling aftermarket that includes many quality magazines on the market that are far better than the original disposable aluminum ones, to the extent that many smallbore bolt-action varmint rifles now use them.

It appears that the AICS and SR-25 magazines are also becoming sort of de facto standards in larger calibers, though not to the same extent.

 

[mcb]

I have done some pretty horrible things to AR magazines and they keep on functioning. And when they do finally fail or get damaged too badly to be used you throw them away and buy another for $20 or less. If you buy in bulk you can often do it for less than $10 each. As other have said the benefite of being widely used.

 

[bearcreek]

In my state and probably others you cannot transport a loaded weapon. Clips solve that problem and allow quick reloads.

Have there been any rifles made in the last 50-60 years that take clips?

 

[bearcreek]

I think much of the rhetoric about detachable mags comes from folks who are not roaming around the woods with a rifle but only from their vehicle to the bench.

I "roamed" for somewhere around 150+ miles this hunting season. I would never buy a rifle that didn't have a detachable magazine, unless it was just a ridiculously good deal for some reason, then I'd be converting it.

 

[bearcreek]

Single shot for the win.

Seriously, if bolt-actions weren't half the price, generally more accurate, and better suited to optics, I wouldn't hesitate to use a Ruger No. 1.

Agreed. I'd love to use a single shot. I just can't justify the price.

 

[bearcreek]

I have done some pretty horrible things to AR magazine and they keep on functioning.

Same. Besides that, I have routinely run more rounds through an AR magazine in a single day than my bolt action hunting rifle is likely to see in several years. Apples and oranges.

 

[armoredman]

Late to this party, but I have to chime in on a couple of points.

1) I don't understand the angst about how different manufacturers use different detachable magazines. Most of the available actions aren't built to standardized dimensions. They all take different stocks, different bolts, firing pins, etc. How boring would the world be if everything was the same? *cough* ARsareallthesamenomatteryourbuildspec *cough*

2) There are LOTS of old guns that turn up missing detachable magazines. (Bolts too .) While it isn't the norm, it happens often enough that it wasn't a huge surprise when I was working at a gun shop. And good luck turning up a magazine for something that's been out of production for even 25 years. A 100-year old design? Buy lottery tickets while you comb the auction and parts sites to find a replacement, and see which pays out first. Due to this experience, I switched from "never store a firearm with a magazine in it" to "better leave an empty magazine in it so you always have at least one".

3) I have one of those neat little CZ-527 micro-Mauser-esque bolt actions, and the one thing I'd change in a heart beat is to swap the 5-round detachable magazine for a 4 or 5 round internal box magazine with hinged floor-plate. It's a hunting/field walking rifle, quick magazine changes aren't a priority. The magazine sticking down right at the carry point is kind of a bummer. Not to mention it ruins the lines of an otherwise trim little carbine. Oh, the top couple of rounds feed pretty stiffly due to the pressure from the magazine spring too. Seriously, the magazine is the one blemish on an otherwise tidy package.

Oh, I don't know about that, I kinda liked my CZ 527M...wish I hadn't lost it.