Why so many rounds?

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The OP's original discussion starter, post number 1, posed the question this way;

I think some of you are taking the topic beyond "Joe-you-and-me" events. If staying on topic, the rarity of civilians going beyond a few rounds expended makes it all but useless for one to carry the extended mag plus two reloads and a BUG firepower many have espoused. Do so if you want, no one cares, but please don't equate it to anything approaching necessary for the common Joe.

This simply shows a misunderstanding of the mathematical concept of 'averages'; what was the mean, the mode and the standard deviation from the mythical '3 shots, 3 seconds, 3 yards' encounter? An 'average' doesn't define what is LIKELY to happen, it only defines what happens most often.

Larry
 
I wonder how many times you heard someone say after their gunfight "Wish I'd brought more ammo". Really... ever?

ACTUALLY, Special Agend Morales did say that in the VERY extensive interview he did .

Post shooting event in the FBI shootout in Miami.

And you will next pose the question "can WE ever expect to see that kind of shootout as civilians".

My answer,and my reason for my loadout,ask yourself how many "civilians" have found them selves in a "mass shooter" incident,and what would you have on you IF [ big if ] you knew that was where you would be on that day.

I am willing to place ANY amount of a bet,you cannot find a single survivor of one of those events that would admit to not wanting a gun = and that would be a belt fed one [ yes,unreasonable but real ].

AND all the ammunition that could be carried.
 
I think some of you are taking the topic beyond "Joe-you-and-me" events. If staying on topic, the rarity of civilians going beyond a few rounds expended makes it all but useless for one to carry the extended mag plus two reloads and a BUG firepower many have espoused. Do so if you want, no one cares, but please don't equate it to anything approaching necessary for the common Joe.
Any gun control cultist will tell you that the "rarity" of needing a gun AT ALL "makes it all but useless for one to carry" a gun AT ALL.

Chuck Schumer will be happy to explain why "the common Joe" doesn't need a firearm... AT ALL.

I've personally been told that I don't need a gun because it says, "To Serve and Protect" on the doors of the police cars, and that means that the police HAVE to protect you as an individual.
 
I am willing to place ANY amount of a bet,you cannot find a single survivor of one of those events that would admit to not wanting a gun = and that would be a belt fed one [ yes,unreasonable but real ].

AND all the ammunition that could be carried.

A WANT is not a NEED.

Deanimator, what does your post have to do with a discussion of CCW ammo capacity?

DT Guy, Who said anything about average? The word I used is rarity to describe civilian use of a lot of ammo, say over 6 or 7 rounds expended. I have a clear understanding of reality and the reality is; few shots are used in the vast majority of civilian defensive firearm use events.
 
Well, we choose high capacity magazines, semi autos and so on mostly as a friend used to say "Because we can". While there are places trying to rid us of our right to choose such things there are many more where those freedoms haven't been infringed.
Agreed with this here. One thing though, a lot of what you are calling "high capacity magaZines" are actually just standard capacity magazines. These 15, 16, 17, 19 etc round magaZines for double stack semi autos are what the firearm was designed to run in the first place. A 100rd aftermarket drum is a high capacity magazine, a 17rd Glock 17 or 19rd XD mag is a standard capacity magaZine. The reason I myself carry a double stack Glock 19 is not because I don't plan to aim or consider myself an above average shot. I am well trained and continue to train on a weekly basis, however I still like to give myself every advantage I can. If carrying a double stack (Glock 19/32) was u comfortable and kept me from carrying it then I would carry my M&P Shield single stack 7+1 or my airweight smith as a primary carry weapon. For me though at 6ft and roughly 190lbs I have no issues carrying my mid size Glocks with the right holsters. I also carry a folding knife in each side pant pocket, my wallet, keys, and a small 120 lumen surefire light each day. None of this bothers me and with exception to the Glock, I tend to use each item almost daily so they aren't carried for no reason. If im doing a business transaction with cash, going to a questionable area or traveling in general and other higher risk situations I may even carry a backup/auxiliary weapon (like my Shield or airweight) aside from my double stack. I am also a "truck gun" guy; I built a 10.5" AR pistol that rides with me at all times along with 210rds of 62/77gr ammo, one of my CATI Plate carriers, and a sizeable medical/trauma kit. These are all just things that, for me, fall under the category of "I would rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.". Times are different this day in age and at any moment you could find yourself in the middle of a very dangerous situation out of nowhere. For me it's better to stack the odds in your favor when you can and be prepared whenever possible. Every man is different, though. If you feel a 5 shot revolver is enough for your daily protection then the odds are it probably is. So long as you practice with it, any firearm can save your hide so training with what you carry is much more important than how many rounds you choose to carry. However that being said I don't think you will ever find anyone who has been involved in a firefight that says they wish they had LESS ammo at their disposal, so I carry as much as I comfortably can. As always, YMMV.
 
Lance Thomas is as good an example of Joe - you - and - me.
You can clearly see how quickly 5 shots go while under attack and defending ones self.

Correct. usp9, google "Lance Thomas"... it will enlighten you. And Lance is not the only one that has found out five shooters kind of run out of ammo fast.

Just read accounts in:

https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen.aspx

and go back some. Yes regular 'joes' have needed more than 5,6,7 rounds before.

Deaf
 
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Correct. usp9, google "Lance Thomas"... it will enlighten you. And Lance is not the only one that has found out five shooters kind of run out of ammo fast.

Just read accounts in:

https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen.aspx

and go back some. Yes regular 'joes' have needed more than 5,6,7 rounds before.

Deaf

Anyone would certainly agree that the Lance Thomas story is far from the normal or ordinary "Joe" out enjoying life. His story is the one that highlights the increased danger of a certain location and/or lifestyle influencing the threat level one would expect or prepare for.

Few of the NRA stories give a round count. As a life member I've read a lot of them. I think in general they give credence to my point. One common thread we see in the NRA stories is that often just the sudden unexpected appearance of the defender's firearm ends the confrontation with a bad guy. Most of the others are very brief. Real life is almost never a 50 round fusillade at the OK Corral.
 
There are thousands of ordinary Joe's that are merchants who are exposed to just what Thomas experienced.
Throwing out false narratives that inflate numbers adds little to the discussion.
In the end, who really gives a dam if I carry my gun full of ammunition or not?
 
A WANT is not a NEED.

Deanimator, what does your post have to do with a discussion of CCW ammo capacity?

DT Guy, Who said anything about average? The word I used is rarity to describe civilian use of a lot of ammo, say over 6 or 7 rounds expended. I have a clear understanding of reality and the reality is; few shots are used in the vast majority of civilian defensive firearm use events.

I imagine you realize you denied using the 'word' average just prior to referring to the concept of the average ammunition expended in a civilian encounter? If you want to describe a 'rarity', you'll need to define the term; does it happen 1% of the time, 10%, or 30%? Because something that happens 30% of the time wouldn't be the 'average', and we'll need a statistical analysis to know that.


Larry
 
Real life is almost never a 50 round fusillade at the OK Corral.

Almost, is... almost. 50 rounds? Even if one carries three 15 round mags it ain't 50 rounds.

Oh, Lance Thomas was just a jeweler. Lots of them here in Texas. And lots of people wear expensive watches to and drive cars that carjackers want.

Lance was accosted by two thugs in his store. He had ONE 5 shot J. He fired three rounds, missed once. The other guy ran dragging his buddy. But Thomas noted he fired 60 percent of his ammo and still one guy was left (who ran.) He figured out if the fight had continued that J .38 would have likely been emptied. Thus he went to six shot revolvers (and then again... he had ammo problems the next shootout.) Later he went to high capacity automatics so the gun would stay in the fight.

Now being attacked by two people is not uncommon. Missing a few rounds (or more) is not uncommon. Home invasions are NOT THAT UNCOMMON. Neither is CARJACKING. Do the math.

Don't think 'normal' or 'average' or 'common joe'. It ain't normal when you are attacked, period.

Oh, here is another one. High Volume Shootout: The Harry Beckwith Incident:

http://www.afn.org/~guns/ayoob.html

And folks, here is Five Gunfighting Myths Debunked (Ayoob again.)

http://www.personaldefenseworld.com...-myths-debunked-massad-ayoob/#armed-and-ready

You can read more about Lance Thomas here (and I highly recommend the "Ayoob Files".)

One carries what one carries and then PRAYS they don't need more.

BTW.. I'm a LFI graduate myself.

Deaf
 
The word I used is rarity to describe civilian use of a lot of ammo, say over 6 or 7 rounds expended. I have a clear understanding of reality and the reality is; few shots are used in the vast majority of civilian defensive firearm use events.
First of all, when law enforcement officers employ their firearms in defensive encounters and and are not attempting to otherwise pursue and subdue violent criminals who are in the act of committing crimes, there is no reason to distinguish between civilian and police shootings. Second, yes, six or eight rounds depended may describe the majority of incidents, but (1) it is usually not prudent in risk mitigation to plan for majority coverage only, and (2) most of us would not like to end up holding an empty gun while looking around for other attackers. I, for one, would not board an airplane that was thought to be able to arrive safely in "the vast majority" of cases. I carry high rounds. I think ten would be better, but I have selected a firearm with a capacity of eight rounds after having considered several parameters.
 
First of all, when law enforcement officers employ their firearms in defensive encounters and and are not attempting to otherwise pursue and subdue violent criminals who are in the act of committing crimes, there is no reason to distinguish between civilian and police shootings. Second, yes, six or eight rounds depended may describe the majority of incidents, but (1) it is usually not prudent in risk mitigation to plan for majority coverage only, and (2) most of us would not like to end up holding an empty gun while looking around for other attackers. I, for one, would not board an airplane that was thought to be able to arrive safely in "the vast majority" of cases. I carry high rounds. I think ten would be better, but I have selected a firearm with a capacity of eight rounds after having considered several parameters.

One thing lots of folks forget is that usually the police RESPOND to a violent incident; that means a citizen has already been the recipient of the violence, and was in the same situation, only fresher and 'hotter' than the responding police.

Larry
 
One thing lots of folks forget is that usually the police RESPOND to a violent incident; that means a citizen has already been the recipient of the violence, and was in the same situation, only fresher and 'hotter' than the responding police.

Larry

What? I don't think so.

Deaf
 
My answer,and my reason for my loadout,ask yourself how many "civilians" have found them selves in a "mass shooter" incident,and what would you have on you IF [ big if ] you knew that was where you would be on that day.

Why, not go to that place, of course..
 
Deanimator, what does your post have to do with a discussion of CCW ammo capacity?
It's all about people with no skin in the game telling OTHER people what they need.

Somebody not prepared to come to my assistance when I run out of ammunition has no business telling me how many rounds I need.

Similarly, somebody who's not prepared to come to my aid if I'm attacked, has no business telling me I don't need a gun.

Telling me how many rounds I need, or that I don't need a gun at all both come from a position of arrogance, and usually ignorance.
 
Anyone would certainly agree that the Lance Thomas story is far from the normal or ordinary "Joe" out enjoying life.
Piers Morgan would certainly agree that using a handgun for self-defense at all is far from the ordinary "Joe" out enjoying life. That assertion would be as "valid" as yours.

In neither case would the persons making the assertion be willing or able to ameliorate the situation if things went badly based on their advice.
 
What? I don't think so.

Deaf
Unless you have assigned police bodyguards or you're attacked INSIDE a police station, that is almost INVARIABLY the case.

Any direct threat from which the police "protect" you as an individual, either was not credible or not immediate.

If I'm walking through Great Northern Mall on Saturday and somebody starts screaming "Allahu Akhbar" and shooting people, a North Olmsted cop isn't going to magically and instantaneously appear to "protect" me.

Neither will one mysteriously manifest himself if somebody tries to carjack me in the parking lot.

The police have no legal duty to protect you as an individual and no legal liability if they fail to. In any case, in most instances, they don't have the physical ability to do so. They drive Crown Vics, not TARDISes. They can't keep doing it over and over until they get there in time.

If you're not willing and able to protect YOURSELF, you're just not going to get protected AT ALL. Anybody who tells you different is a LIAR.
 
Why, not go to that place, of course..
If I had the ability to unerringly predict the future so that I would know when I'd need a firearm, and how much ammunition I'd require, I'd instead play the stock market and the horses. In a couple of weeks, I'd have enough money to buy a private island and an army and navy to protect it and me.
 
One thing lots of folks forget is that usually the police RESPOND to a violent incident; that means a citizen has already been the recipient of the violence, and was in the same situation, only fresher and 'hotter' than the responding police.
Whether or not an officer has responded to an alarm or report of a crime in progress or a report of domestic violence, a sudden an unexpected attack by a violent criminal actor on the officer differs little from an ambush on a civilian in terms of what happens after defensive firearms are brought into play.
 
If I had the ability to unerringly predict the future so that I would know when I'd need a firearm, and how much ammunition I'd require, I'd instead play the stock market and the horses. In a couple of weeks, I'd have enough money to buy a private island and an army and navy to protect it and me.

I should've been clear, but precisely my point. Nonetheless, that's my winking smiley answer to the question as posed.
 
What? I don't think so.

Deaf

Let me try to be more clear:

When the police go to an armed robbery call, who has been robbed? A citizen.

When they go to a bar fight, who's already there? Citizens.

Protests? Citizens. Attempted murders? Citizens.

Almost any violent activity the police get called to already involves citizen victims.

Was the more clear?


Larry
 
Was the more clear?
It's perfectly clear, but in my mind it is not pertinent to the subject at hand, in that it does not result in differences in the number of rounds likely to be fired i nee defensive part of the encounter. The LEO may draw upon arrival in some kinds of responses, but he or she will not necessarily know whether an attack will occur, or from whom, or from where. Now, the officer cannot threat the encounter as being over if the criminal tries to get away, and in trying to apprehend the subject, he or she is likely to need additional capacity and maybe even additional magazines.
 
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