Exactly. I know I've heard people say stay away from +P in older firearms like Lugers and other WWII and pre weapons, but I know many that would not cycle correctly not just because of round OAL but due to the round being under powered. You can buy under powered springs now.Some of the other 'Old Timers" on here can tell us the years, but it seems?? in the '70's most all ammo was loaded pretty "Hot".
Ever shoot any Super-Vel?? for example..In a .357, or .44Mag. they were HOT!!
Nowadays -NOT so much..Most loads are watered down..So to make up for that, some of the calibers are loaded up to where they used to be years ago.
These loads are called "+P" or "+P+".
IMO, the ammo mfgs. have loaded down most loads, across the board, and their +P models are a way to spend less on standard loads+make more $ for REAL--(+P) Loads.....Bill.
PS: This is another reason to reload your own ammo...
Why use +P ammo?
- Thread starter RedAlert
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ROAshooter
member
"+P+: for that time you want max power, but don't want to buy a bigger gun."
or a better one.....+P+..in a cheap gun = recipe for disaster..
or a better one.....+P+..in a cheap gun = recipe for disaster..
Deaf Smith
Member
Well Bob tell the jury you got the gun to kill... And I'll tell the jury I got the gun to stop the threat.
Yes it is a form of lethal force but the mission is to stop the threat and not to kill.
Deaf
2ndunamended
member
+P may feel a little hotter in a smaller gun, but it's often negligible in comparison. For example, while I notice a difference between by G26 and G17, it doesn't affect my accuracy- largely because I train quite a bit with both.
I primarily shoot the standard range 115 gr. while practicing, but I'll frequently run a mag with the Hornady 135 gr. Critical Duty that I carry. I do notice a difference, but it isn't significant. However, I bet the receiving end of the round would "notice" a difference.
I primarily shoot the standard range 115 gr. while practicing, but I'll frequently run a mag with the Hornady 135 gr. Critical Duty that I carry. I do notice a difference, but it isn't significant. However, I bet the receiving end of the round would "notice" a difference.
Overkill870
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Because it has more knockdown power. 
Because a few fractions of an inch of expansion or penetration is marketing that sells ammo. Will it have any real world difference? Probably not. I highly doubt if you shot someone with standard pressure then shot them with +p they could tell you the difference.
Because a few fractions of an inch of expansion or penetration is marketing that sells ammo. Will it have any real world difference? Probably not. I highly doubt if you shot someone with standard pressure then shot them with +p they could tell you the difference.
ljnowell
Member
Except there is no such thing as 380+p. Sure, boutique manufacturers call their hit 380 that but there is no standard or specification for 380+p.
TruthTellers
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I know, that's why I put +P in quotations, but you can't sit there and tell me that a .380 going 1100 fps is "standard pressure" or less powerful, which is the point of this topic.
Bobson
Member
Yeah, the term is deadly force, because you're using a firearm, which is recognized as having the potential to kill. That doesn't mean you're trying to kill your attacker.
You're employing a certain level of force (deadly force) with the intent to stop your attacker from harming or killing you or someone else. Thus, if you ever find yourself in court for a defensive act, you would be wise to follow the advice of a competent attorney, who would be wise to advise you to state that you were trying to put an end to the attack - not to the attacker.
If you were trying to kill your attacker, that wouldn't be a defensive action, it would be attempted murder.
Deaf Smith
Member
That 'fraction of an inch' expansion might take out important arteries, might take out nerves, might allow expansion despite heavy clothing. Same goes for penetration. Keep in mind all these fancy jello test don't take into consideration things like having to go through thick clothing, belts, objects in pockets, abdominal fat, forearms, etc.Because it has more knockdown power.
Because a few fractions of an inch of expansion or penetration is marketing that sells ammo. Will it have any real world difference? Probably not. I highly doubt if you shot someone with standard pressure then shot them with +p they could tell you the difference.
Deaf
I wonder why people think they need centerfire pistols for self defense. After all, .22lr is enough to greviously injure or kill someone. So is a knife. Or a pair of the pointy-type scissors. A pen, too, while we're at it.
I don't think this is a reasonable framing of the question. One significant reason for choosing any given weapon over another is its marginal capabilities. One can have differing views on whether a particular cartridge is given any marginal capability by virtue of having a little extra pressure at peak and, presumably, a little extra velocity. How much extra marginal capability? Well, that's what terminal ballistics debates are made of. But that's the question.
Re: what "elite" units use... standard NATO 9mm is, IIRC, mid-range +P.
I don't think this is a reasonable framing of the question. One significant reason for choosing any given weapon over another is its marginal capabilities. One can have differing views on whether a particular cartridge is given any marginal capability by virtue of having a little extra pressure at peak and, presumably, a little extra velocity. How much extra marginal capability? Well, that's what terminal ballistics debates are made of. But that's the question.
Re: what "elite" units use... standard NATO 9mm is, IIRC, mid-range +P.
ljnowell
Member
"My opinion is that 99% of the gun carrying public would be better served with a mid-power caliber and devote more time to range practice."
Although I agree with this statement it seems to put me in the 1% group I guess. I do practice, and reload my own, and have no issue with loadings of cartridges that are within factory specifications (even +P) or my handloading book data. If 10% added to a 9MM means you can't control that gun then you should practice more or go to a different caliber/cartridge and possible not have been shooting it in the first place. I admit it took some time for me to properly manage the 45 acp in fast repetitive shooting but at some point I made it work. This can be true of most combat handgun calibers. I will tell you that I have not been able to manage my 10MM to that extent (yet) and may not ever achieve acceptable results.
Although I agree with this statement it seems to put me in the 1% group I guess. I do practice, and reload my own, and have no issue with loadings of cartridges that are within factory specifications (even +P) or my handloading book data. If 10% added to a 9MM means you can't control that gun then you should practice more or go to a different caliber/cartridge and possible not have been shooting it in the first place. I admit it took some time for me to properly manage the 45 acp in fast repetitive shooting but at some point I made it work. This can be true of most combat handgun calibers. I will tell you that I have not been able to manage my 10MM to that extent (yet) and may not ever achieve acceptable results.
My HK P30 9mm feeds the Hornady Custom / American Gunner 124 gr.+P XTP ammo reliably and I can hit the targets accurately with it. My gun shows no ill effects from damage or wear from occasional range use of this ammo. I can get these whenever I need them from at least 2 sources, and they don't cost any more than the standard 124 gr. Hornady XTP ammo. I don't see a downside in using and carrying this +P ammo.
Deaf Smith
Member
Cause killing isn't the mission. It's stopping them from killing YOU. Killing them, and before they expire they kill me, isn't an option in my view.
Deaf
RedAlert
Member
As always, there are many differing opinions expressed here.
Thanks.
Red
Thanks.
Red
Shootshellz
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Actually, there is a LOT of difference between the bullet wound channels between standard and +P handgun ammunition. The reason +P ammunition was developed was so the suspect COULD NOT 'tell you the difference', if you catch my drift. It is PERFORMANCE that sells +P ammunition, not marketing.
BSA1
member
In Post #5 I said the problem is nobody agrees on what +P ammunition is. A couple of members said it is ammo that is 10% over the pressure of regular ammo.
Well does 5 fps make a cartridge 10% overpressure?
Hornady American Gunner 124 gr. XTP is label at 1155 fps muzzle velocity.
Hornady American Gunner 124 gr. XTP +P is label at 1160 fps muzzle velocity.
So the difference is only 5 fps. I got to be missing something here.
Well does 5 fps make a cartridge 10% overpressure?
Hornady American Gunner 124 gr. XTP is label at 1155 fps muzzle velocity.
Hornady American Gunner 124 gr. XTP +P is label at 1160 fps muzzle velocity.
So the difference is only 5 fps. I got to be missing something here.
TfflHndn
Member
Bobson, while I understand and agree with your sentiment that the intent should be to stop the attacker, intending to stop him by killing him is not attempted murder, at least not by the legal definitions used in Washington. It's homicide, but it's defined as justifiable when committed in the lawful defense of self or another, among other situations. Check RCW 9A.16.050. The main point, however, is that every bullet fired at someone carries a lawsuit with it, either criminal or civil, so be careful out there when considering use of force, people. Better to avoid having to defend yourself in court at all, but better to defend your life and your actions in court than to be attacked.
sigarms228
Member
I believe +P means up to 10 percent above standard pressure for 9MM.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpressure_ammunition
Using Speer Gold Dot 124 GR as an example:
http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx
Standard 124 is 1150 FPS and 364 ME
+P 124 is 1220 FPS and 410 ME
IMO that is a significant difference.
BSA1
member
I am confused by the label Hornady put on this ammunition
Cabelas has American Gunner 124 gr. XTP sitting on the shelf beside the 124 gr. XTP +P. Hornady's website doesn't show a non +P 124 gr. 9mm. It also lists the velocity of the +P as 1175 fps. at the muzzle. Maybe a screwup with labeling???
Cabelas has American Gunner 124 gr. XTP sitting on the shelf beside the 124 gr. XTP +P. Hornady's website doesn't show a non +P 124 gr. 9mm. It also lists the velocity of the +P as 1175 fps. at the muzzle. Maybe a screwup with labeling???
silicosys4
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I carry a .45acp on occasion, loaded with 200gr Hornady XTP's.
Would I rather have this at 850fps?
Or this at 950fps?
First picture is standard velocity, second picture is +P velocity. You can see the difference 100 fps gives in reliable expansion. I want reliable expansion, and I am fine with practicing more to adjust to any added recoil I might experience.
Go here;
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
and compare the performance of +P ammunition to standard velocity. In some cases, such as the hornady xtp .45acp 200gr. test, there are both standard and +P velocities for the same bullet, and the difference in performance for the same bullets at different velocities is surprising. It can go either way, depending on the bullet, which makes it that much more important to know the load you are using.
Hornady xtp's need at least 900fps to expand reliably from everything I've read and experienced. In some cartridges, +P is the only way to get there.
Would I rather have this at 850fps?
Or this at 950fps?
First picture is standard velocity, second picture is +P velocity. You can see the difference 100 fps gives in reliable expansion. I want reliable expansion, and I am fine with practicing more to adjust to any added recoil I might experience.
Go here;
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
and compare the performance of +P ammunition to standard velocity. In some cases, such as the hornady xtp .45acp 200gr. test, there are both standard and +P velocities for the same bullet, and the difference in performance for the same bullets at different velocities is surprising. It can go either way, depending on the bullet, which makes it that much more important to know the load you are using.
Hornady xtp's need at least 900fps to expand reliably from everything I've read and experienced. In some cartridges, +P is the only way to get there.
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SlicLee
Member
9's
Someone forced the manufacturers to down load the 9's.
My uncles, 3 of them,NYPD, carried their duty gun but all used 9's.
Back then 115;RNFMJ was 1300. That was in 1930's. Think of it.
when I started shooting USPCA, a group of us started using 9's over the 45 acp's which were poor. We bought Winchester 9mm,115 grain @1200 fps,50 per box,practice ammo at 75 cents a box in 2000. A year or so later,USPCA STARTED discriminating against 9mm claiming its unsafe to shoot and ammo must be reduced. Winchester made up some reduced loads, Mr Wolf got some recoil springs reduced power and I matched springs to ammo and was back shooting my 9s and we were all winning against the 45's.Thats when power factor came into play to kill the 9 and made a new class for anything not 45.
This dirty work begot IDPA and many shooters left USPCA.
The 9mm round,developed in Germany, was designed to be 1550 FPS used in German Luger. Now you know how the 9 became 9 Luger.
My +P loads for my 9 is 1500 JHP. I never practice shoot them, I still use Winchester 115's to play with not in my combat guns.
Someone forced the manufacturers to down load the 9's.
My uncles, 3 of them,NYPD, carried their duty gun but all used 9's.
Back then 115;RNFMJ was 1300. That was in 1930's. Think of it.
when I started shooting USPCA, a group of us started using 9's over the 45 acp's which were poor. We bought Winchester 9mm,115 grain @1200 fps,50 per box,practice ammo at 75 cents a box in 2000. A year or so later,USPCA STARTED discriminating against 9mm claiming its unsafe to shoot and ammo must be reduced. Winchester made up some reduced loads, Mr Wolf got some recoil springs reduced power and I matched springs to ammo and was back shooting my 9s and we were all winning against the 45's.Thats when power factor came into play to kill the 9 and made a new class for anything not 45.
This dirty work begot IDPA and many shooters left USPCA.
The 9mm round,developed in Germany, was designed to be 1550 FPS used in German Luger. Now you know how the 9 became 9 Luger.
My +P loads for my 9 is 1500 JHP. I never practice shoot them, I still use Winchester 115's to play with not in my combat guns.
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