Why were muskets faster to reload than rifles?

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andy_cc

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Hi all,

I have only ever done black powder shooting with my 1858 remington, and have been looking at purchasing a black powder rifle, possibly a pennsylvania or similar, whilst doing research for this, I have come across numerous websites detailing how American long riflemen were sometimes at a disadvantage in battle because their weapons took longer to reload.

Would this have been because the rifles took a tighter fitting ball, and thus the ramming would have simply taken loner?


Thanks all, and I apologize for the silly question, but if you dont know you gotta ask somebody...


Best regards

Andrew
 
Well Andy the Rifle we had compared to the Brown Bess could have been a hair harder to load, but remember in a hurry the Long Rifle would probly only get powder and a ball and a charged pan.
 
A "kentucky" or Pennsylvania rifle was loaded with a patched round ball, and the patch had to be placed over the bore, the bullet into the patch and started, to do it right, the excess patch should be cut off before the ball is rammed home. The patch served to help lubricate and clean the bore, and is easier to ram than a groove fitting ball, which might have to be hammered all the way down to the powder charge. A rifle ball is smaller than the bore by the thickness of the patch, more or less.

A (smoothbore) musket ball is also smaller than the bore, so it will load easily, as there is no rifling, and the ball wouldn't engage it anyway. The direction the ball goes after leaving the muzzle depends upon where it last bounced off the inside of the bore.

The Civil War rifled musket used a Minie ball, a hollow based bullet designed to open up umbrella fashion under the propellant pressure and fill the rifling. Because it too is undersized as cast, it loads easily.
 
In the Revolution, the long rifle played the same type of role as the .50 sniper rifle today. It was able to kill at what were then unbelievable ranges and it was a "terror" weapon, serving as much to frighten and demoralize an enemy as to actually kill.

But for common infantry use, it was no good; not only was it slow to load but it did not take a bayonet, so a rifleman who had fired his one shot was effectively unarmed and helpless.

Jim
 
For many years I have owned a repr Bess, A Nor' West gun a flint pistol which ius smooth bore and uses the same ball (0.60) as the nor west gun, and a .40 cal rifle which is 52.5 inches long over all.

With the Nor West gun and the Bess I can fire 6 shots a minute, in training which I am not now. But I can still fire these faster in relation to the rifle anyday.

The rifle takes more care. I shoot a tight 0.395 ball with a silk patching in the .40 cal, trying to keep up grains of weight.

The trade off is accuracy for the rifle and longer distance.

One missed items today is back then a common laod for a musket was 'Buck N' Ball on a battlefield.

The bess then would be a .735 ball, (9) .36 shot, and one more .735 ball, with a wad over the top, and one probably paper under the first ball.

Also back then in battle paper catridges were the order of the day as 60 rounds per catridge box, usually.

The Musket can be accurate out to 75 yards, perhaps a bit more, but then the musket has no sites.

The nor West Gun has a ft site and is sometimes fitted with a rear site. This is a hunting gun... It has taken ALL North American Game there is, with ball and or shot. Shot is anything made of lead that fits the bore.

Shot like bird shot is a recent invention, and so before this time, to make shot it was a simple thing done by hammering a ball out flat and cutting the flat ball into little square bits.. You could taylor these bits, but they didn't fly so well as dropped shot, which is round.
 
The bess then would be a .735 ball, (9) .36 shot, and one more .735 ball . . .

:what:

Macmac, if I read this right, a Brown Bess loaded as above would be launching 11 projectiles, 2 of which are REALLY big?

This was a common loading of the period?
 
the brown bess was a common gun that could have shot almost anything. it was the gun that the survivalist needed. it could shoot shot for shot gun and it could shoot as a musket. though not that accurate it could shoot just about anything that did not roll out of the barrel.
 
One missed items today is back then a common laod for a musket was 'Buck N' Ball on a battlefield.

The bess then would be a .735 ball, (9) .36 shot, and one more .735 ball, with a wad over the top, and one probably paper under the first ball.

Also back then in battle paper catridges were the order of the day as 60 rounds per catridge box, usually.

I'm gonna have to dispute you on this Macmac. I know for a fact that in the Civil War, for the very common Model 1842 Springfield .69 cal smoothbore and other similar smoothbore muskets, the buck and ball load consisted of only one large round ball with three .30 or .32 cal buckshot placed on top. Standard powder load for a buck and ball cartridge was between 100-110 grains where it was only 60-65 grains for the .58 minie ball cartridges. I'm pretty sure that during the Revolution it was also standard to use one large round ball (be they .69 to .75 caliber) with three buckshot, again, on top of the round ball. I've never heard of a load using one large round ball, nine buckshot and another large round ball on top of that. Sure would kick though! I have seen all buckshot cartridges without the round ball consisting of only 12 buckshot on top of powder. Buck and ball could only be used out of a smoothbore since it tended to damage the rifling if used in muskets that were rifled.

Paper206920Cal20Buck2020Ball.jpg

wbuckbal1.jpg

Standard U.S. cartridge boxes held only 40 rounds during the Civil War both for .58 and .69 calibers. The .69 boxes were a bit longer and wider than the .58 boxes. Revolutionary times it was even less holding only 24 to 29 rounds usually due to the larger caliber (.75) that was standard. During the Civil War soldiers were issued 60 rounds and more sometimes but they didn't all fit in the cartridge box. Cartridges came in ten round paper wrapped packets. The soldiers would put the standard 40 rounds in their boxes and then the additional ammo would go either in their pockets or haversacks.

One instance that I do know of where a unit actually tampered with and changed their load was the 12th New Jersey stationed along the small stone wall by the angle at Gettysburg. Their regiment was still equipped with '42 Springfield smoothbores and actually preferred them. They had a feeling what was coming on the third day and on the night of the second day actually cracked open their buck and ball loads to add an additional 6-9 buckshot on top of the three already there and getting rid of the large round ball, thereby making their muskets devastating close range shotguns. The percentage of dead and wounded on the ground in front of the wall at Gettysburg after Pickett's Charge was by far the highest directly in front of the 12th NJ's position.

I shoot buck and ball all the time out of my '42 Springfield and it's one of my favorite loads to shoot. It's just a blast, literally. I make my own buck and ball cartridges with newspaper and cotton thread to tie them.

Here's a picture of the monument at the 12th NJ's position. Most people walk by this and never notice the buck and ball load on top of the monument. Apparently they thought highly enough of it to decorate their monument with it. :cool:

12thNJbuckandball.jpg
 
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The Rev war muskets fired a several different loads. You had Ball which was a single ball, Buck and Ball A ball just under bore size and 3 30 to 36 cal ball on top. and there was a buckshot load 9 to 12 30 to 36 cal balls only. Many of the balls were quite undersized to allow for fouling that would build up. With a rifle and the tight fitting patch and ball combination would require cleaning after only a few rounds.

Andy
Legion Ville Historical Societry
www.legionville.com
 
It's also worth mentioning that smoothbore muskets were traditionally loaded with an undersized ball. A .69 caliber musket might have a .65 caliber ball issued for it. The intent was that a company of infantry shot in volleys, and no one soldier was expected to hit a target.
 
Realistically, had I lived in the muzzleloading era, I would have wanted a fowler, fusil, or musketoon. Not only versatile as described above but lighter to carry and, with a well fitting patched ball, accurate as far as I can see without the spectacles I probably could not have afforded.
 
Thank you Phantom Captain and Rifleshooter2 for providing good informaton.

The following is an excerpt from Chapter 1 of my book on the blackpowder sharpshooter. It's a cut and paste so it doesn't read as smooth as it does in the book.

For the rifle to be accurate, it required a tight fit between the ball and the barrel. Since ramming a tight fitting ball was slow and difficult, an easier alternative that didn’t compromise accuracy was to use a greased patch of either linen or leather in conjunction with a slightly undersized ball. “n some parts of Germany and Switzerland, an improvement is made by cutting a piece of thin leather or fustian, in a circular shape, somewhat larger than the bore; this being greased on one side, is laid upon the muzzle with its greasy part downwards, and the bullet being placed upon it, it is then forced down the barrel with it.” However, even with the greased patch and smaller ball combination, loading a rifle was a slow process requiring as much as a minute. By contrast, a trained soldier could fire his musket up to four times a minute... While rifles clearly had an edge in long range shooting, the smoothbore musket remained the primary infantry weapon from the sixteenth century until about 1840. Being smoothbore, it was loaded with an undersized ball that would bounce along the barrel when fired. The ball’s erratic flight ensured that accuracy was not the musket’s virtue. As explained by Shippen’s letter (cited earlier), the musket’s higher rate or volume of fire endeared it to the armies that expected its soldiers to deliver four shots a minute. These were not aimed shots since aiming slowed down the rate of fire.


The musket's undersized ball was the key to it loading faster than a rifle. You could literally drop it into the barrel and a smart rap of the butt on the ground will settle it without having to use the ramrod. Lawrence Babits did it that way when he speed loaded his replica Bess and placed 5 out of 6 shots (no buck, just one undersized ball) into a man sized target placed at 75 yards distance. Babits told me he was quite young and also had the lead balls in his mouth to spit it down the barrel. He's older and wiser now and wouldn't even try that anymore.
 
Musketoons were shorter, generally 24" barrel versions of the gun. They were popular with the cavalry crowd and many had a bar and ring for the sling and hook.

Loose guidelines when you see three guns of the same make (buttplate, trigger guard, lock, sights, style of barrel bands)

Rifle muskets had 39" barrels (3 bands).
Rifles had 33" barrels (2 bands)
Musketoons had 24-26" barrels (2 band).

For illustrations, click here for Navy Arms Link
 
Andy - I just noticed that you're in Bath. Nice city with that beautiful bridge. That's quite a distance from Leeds but if you get up there, they should have some examples of the American longrifle displayed at the Royal Armoury Museum. Quite a number of guns were taken home by British officers as war prizes. One of our riflemen captured at Quebec, George Merchant, was brought to England and asked to display his prowess with his rifle. The intent was to show that the rifle was not to be feared as much as the Boston papers warned of (Our papers of the period had a lot of things boasting about how deadly our riflemen were. Remember that newspapers didn't have copyright protection and they copied from each other freely. American papers that reached England were probably quoted by Whig papers to discourage the war against those colonists). Anyhow, it was hoped that George Merchant would miss, thereby assuaging the fears of the British soldiers. He didn't. Opps. Anyhow, the Crown responded by: (1) recruiting American loyalists; (2) hiring German jaegers, and; (3) issuing over 1,100 rifles of British make. The first rifle was 100 Ferguson breechloading rifles. The other 1,000 were the Pattern 1776 rifle. Check out DeWitt Bailey's British Military Flintlock Rifles for more information. It's a terrific book.
 
I'm gonna have to dispute you on this Macmac. I know for a fact that in the Civil War, for the very common Model 1842 Springfield .69 cal smoothbore and other similar smoothbore muskets, the buck and ball load consisted of only one large round ball with three .30 or .32 cal buckshot placed on top.

Phantom Captain,
We have discussed this topic before on TFL back in a 6/2007 thread:
See Posts #10 & #18:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2387939#post2387939


Not that it really matters, but according to the N-SSA:

For those new to buck and ball, the .30 caliber projectiles go into the barrel first, followed by the musket ball.

http://www.n-ssa.org/SKIRMISHLINE/1997/nov97-6.htm

After all, the buck shot is clearly located below the ball that is located at the very top of the monument in the picture! :)

12thNJbuckandball.jpg
 
First folks, the standard infantry load for the AWI was 18 rounds when the war began. The rounds were changed over to 24 when they went from belly boxes to hip boxes, and then went to 36 rounds in the hip box. Some folks will say they had 72 rounds, as the 36 round hip box block could be flipped over, to reveal an additional 36 rounds in a second compartment on the underside of the internal block. This was the Rawles pattern box, and although they were invented and suggested, very few if any of the men were actually issued these boxes. After the war ended in America, the British forces continued to fight in India where sometimes the troops wore two boxes, (we think the whole thing ended in 1781, treaty signed in 1783..., it didn't end on this continent). Rounds were expensive, and when not in combat the men rarely were allowed more than 3 rounds, and generally only when acting as a sentry.

The standard, widely used load for the majority of the war years was a single, very undersized ball. Buck and ball rounds, rounds split or cut, rounds with nails driven through them, were considered criminal, and grounds for hanging if a man was caught with such a round by the other side. British regular soldiers were never allowed such rounds, and neither were the Germans. Washington's troops may have loaded buck & ball for a few preliminary engagements when bayonets were scarse, but think about it..., Washington was always short on ammo, so why give one company of men buck & ball loads when the same amount of lead would allow him enough for two companies of standard ball rounds?

The ball for a .75 caliber musket, to fire all 24 rounds, without getting the clean ball stuck, is .660-.675, depending on humidity. We know this as we have tested it more than once, and with modern, clean burning Goex brand, if you use a .680 ball or larger, you cannot load the musket without the ball jamming, and they didn't take units out of the battle to swab the bores. Ammo was made in bulk for most line infantry units, and contrary to popular myth, they were given target training. Funny thing though, as the battle progresses, the bess gets more accurate..., the crud on the inside of the musket shrinks the bore, and the last few rounds are quite good.

Marksmen were issued paper, powder, and ball, and allowed to roll custom cartridges for accuracy rounds. They could only use these on a limited bases at the beginning of a fight.

When properly loaded with a tight ball, patch combination, the Bess in the hands of a designated Marksman, was expected to strike a man sized target at 90 yards. That target was a white board 2' x 6'. After all, any good hit on a person with a 1 oz ball at 90 yards would take them out of the battle. Riflemen were expected to be able to reach out and touch an enemy soldier at 300 yards.

LD
 
Also, the British had a technique where they'd just knock the gun and the ball would drop down the barrel against the powder. No ramming at all.

Only worked for 2-3 shots before fouling built up, but it was (for its day) VERY fast.
 
Considering the type of precision that's possible with hand tools of the time, I have to wonder if the accuracy of the rifle was greater mostly because of the use of a tight-fitting ball and patch. Extended range would probably be mostly because they were smaller caliber and used lighter, flatter shooting balls.

A 12 gauge shotgun with a foster slug, basically a short minnie ball, is minute-of-redcoat accurate out to the point where you have to aim the shotgun like a howitzer. :p With proper sights and slugs that the gun likes, 3-4" groups at 100 yards aren't too difficult to attain from the bench.

Old round pumpkinball slugs could do around 5-6" at 100 yards I guess. Modern rifle shooters would turn their noses up at such accuracy, but that's more than enough to hit a man-sized target at 200 yards if you can compensate for the rainbow-like trajectory. And that's also with no patch, so the barrel leads very quickly.

It'd be interesting if someone were to test out an actual revolutionary war era rifle that's still in good condition, and see how much real mechanical accuracy there is over a musket with a tightly patched ball.
 
The musket has an undeserved reputation for being inaccurate. It can be accurate on man sized targets at 100 yards distance. However, most soldiers were not taught to aim.

Britain's American Army, that is, the army that fought in the French & Indian War, became quite adept at aiming and they had to fight the Indians who fought from behind cover or concealment. Before William Howe arrived to assume command, the regiments he was bringing over were trained by him in skirmish drill and in marksmanship. Howe was a veteran of the F&I War and was a leader of light infantry.

Rifle shooters could comfortably hit a man at 200 yards and when shooting prone, 300. The better ones could hit at even longer range but as discussed in my article, The Longest Shot Ever, (Goggle it), it becomes an issue of percentages.
 
Gary your right about the muskets getting a bad reputation for inaccuracy. in 1791/1792 General Anthony Wayne was training his troops for a campaign against Little Turtle. He drilled both his Riflemen and Infantry on marksmanship. From time to time they would have shooting matches. On several occasions the Infantry armed with smoothbore muskets bested the riflemen shooting at marks at 55 paces.

Andy
Legion Ville Historical Society
www.legionville.com
 
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