Wild pigs, I just don't get it

[heeler]

Armedbear...Some years back I used to go to the Sam Houston National Forest to squirrel hunt.
That was in the 70's and I never had an issue.
But no way would I do it today!!
Too many people and too many with zero common sense wading around with some semi auto center fire military type rifle with a 20 round magazine going for deer.
Vehicle breakins and vandalism because you are parked away from your vehicle is not uncommon either.
On private land at least you know who is there and the gate and fence makes very good neighbors.

 

[ArmedBear]

Fact: California has feral pigs.

Fact: They are hunted. Without bait.

Fact: They haven't taken over the place, despite ample food and a mild climate.

Yup, now that you have 2 million, it's a bit late. You got there somehow, though. Fences everywhere give the hogs plenty of places to hide.

I don't care if you bait hogs. I don't care if you round them up with 100-dog packs of Catahoulas, lead them to a huge trough, and then shoot 50 at a time while they feed. Got no problem with it.

I'm just saying that, in California, where the hunting situation is different but the habitat is similar AFAIK, they don't need to. They haven't been eradicated. I doubt you can ever eradicate them, any more than prairie dogs, Eurasian collared doves, crows, or anything else. Again, that's black-and-white thinking. Controlling the population isn't eradication, but it beats the hell out of being overrun.

But maybe I just don't know a goddamned thing.

 

[oneounceload]

Pigs here in FL are showing up in subdivisions, especially the ones hit hard by the recession where they are only half built. We have more invasive, non-native species of critters here, many of which have no known enemies. Pigs are one of them, the big pythons are another, and yet they seem to place restrictions on them for some reason.

As for folks preferring to go to the store, personally many do not like wild pig, especially if it is an old boar - they need to be shot and left for the buzzards.

JMO

 

[ArmedBear]

Sounds like Florida needs to adopt Italian-style access rules and conventions.

I like wild pig, but I doubt I've eaten an old boar.

 

[FLAvalanche]

But maybe I just don't know a goddamned thing.

There was a 2004 study done by the USDA (Southeast Cooperative Wildlife Dieases Study) on feral swine populations. As of 2004 there were only three states in the nation in which every county in the state had verified hog populations.

Florida, Hawaii and California.

The population was estimated at 4 million animals. The four states with the largest populations were California, Florida, Hawaii and Texas.

California estimates it's population now at 200,000 pigs now. They rank third in feral pig population. Texas ranks first (1,000,000), Florida second (500,000).

Did you know that California tried to pass a bill (H.B. 2221) requiring land owners to destroy any feral swine on their property and failure to do so would have been a class A misdermeanor?

I'd say you have a bigger problem than you realize.

 

[Todd1700]

People would willingly hunt pigs, if they could get to them.

Well yeah but I'd don't think that I or other land owners are being selfish @-H#$es because we don't want to throw the doors to our land totally open to every Tom, Dick and Harry in the country. Hundreds of people that I don't know from Adams house cat roaming our land and blasting away, maybe at each other, rutting up roads, driving across crop fields and leaving cattle gaps open. No thanks. Sounds a little like trying to cure the measles by getting the mumps to me. And the end result would be something that people who already have hogs know. You are not going to eradicate them by shooting them anyway.

I wish we could send you half of what we have down here and listen to the tune you would be singing a year later.

You got that right. It's no coincidence that most of the "pro hog" folks are people that don't have them on their land and most of the "anti hog" people are folks that do. LOL!

 

[tinygnat219]

I'll take some, and put 'em somewhere close by, but not on my land.

 

[chas08]

Wasn't there an act passed that protected land owners from liability if hunters they've given permission to hunt their land hurt themselves?

I'm unsure of that one. The last lease I had for 12 years on a handshake agreement. I lost it last year when the landowner died. On the lease before that one, I had to sign a release of liability as a part of the contract, to satisfy the owner.

 

[chas08]

Fences everywhere give the hogs plenty of places to hide.

Fences don't stop hogs. Not even deer proof fences. Hogs are as nomadic as buffalo they go where the food is, eat it till the source is destroyed, and then they move on. I wish we could fence 'em in. Because then we could starve 'em to death. The only problem with that is; that it would spell doom for every other living species inside that fence.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

But maybe I just don't know a goddamned thing.

Maybe you can learn?

I do like the tactical change from Texas to California thought your "facts" there seem a bit misplaced as well along with the change in your posting on baiting.

 

[Art Eatman]

Typical sheep and goat netwire fence is 48" high. Square mesh. Usually with two or three strands of barbed wire above at 6" spacing. Hogs get a nose under the bottom wire and lift, and fairly easily stretch the wire and wallow out a dip. This gives them their own personal gateway. Even net hogwire with its bottom strand barbed and of heavier gauge wire doesn't work all that well. Hogs go wherever they want. And, naturally, Ol' Goatie-goat finds the hole and goes wherever HE wants. PITA.

Back during the Vietnam war era, a fair number of cenTex ranchers had relatives at Fort Hood. Fort Hood had training-supplies of trip-wire detonators for booby traps. Those will work with dynamite. Sooo...From time to time, loud noises disturbed the night, spreading hog pieces hither and yon. Also coyote and javelina pieces...

 

[chas08]

Fort Hood had training-supplies of trip-wire detonators for booby traps. Those will work with dynamite. Sooo...From time to time, loud noises disturbed the night, spreading hog pieces hither and yon. Also coyote and javelina pieces

Now that would be FUN!!!...I hunted by invitation on a place outside of Carrizo Springs, Tx. that was high fenced.

The ranch hands had to drive the perimeter of that 2500 acre ranch every two days looking for, and repairing breeches in the wire made by Hogs.

It seems that the Deer would find those openings too. I didn't kill any deer on that invite, but I did kill three hogs.

 

[Flintknapper]

Art Eatman wrote:

Typical sheep and goat netwire fence is 48" high. Square mesh. Usually with two or three strands of barbed wire above at 6" spacing. Hogs get a nose under the bottom wire and lift, and fairly easily stretch the wire and wallow out a dip. This gives them their own personal gateway. Even net hogwire with its bottom strand barbed and of heavier gauge wire doesn't work all that well. Hogs go wherever they want

Exactly!

On by Brother's Ranch in South Texas....holes under the fence are common. We catch scads of hogs and coyotes by setting snares at these "crossings".

But there is no stopping them. In Texas... the infestation is here to stay.

As for those who exclaim "I wish we had hogs where I live"....I can only assume you are not a landowner, because... I can tell you, YOU DON'T want hogs.

 

[wombat13]

Fences don't stop hogs. Not even deer proof fences. Hogs are as nomadic as buffalo they go where the food is, eat it till the source is destroyed, and then they move on. I wish we could fence 'em in. Because then we could starve 'em to death. The only problem with that is; that it would spell doom for every other living species inside that fence.

I think that was AB's point. Fences don't stop hogs, but they do stop hunters. "Fences everywhere give the hogs plenty of places to hide."

 

[wombat13]

Maybe you can learn?

I do like the tactical change from Texas to California thought your "facts" there seem a bit misplaced as well along with the change in your posting on baiting.

Umm...he wasn't switching from Texas to California, he was contrasting Texas to California.

 

[wombat13]

There was a 2004 study done by the USDA (Southeast Cooperative Wildlife Dieases Study) on feral swine populations. As of 2004 there were only three states in the nation in which every county in the state had verified hog populations.

Florida, Hawaii and California.

The population was estimated at 4 million animals. The four states with the largest populations were California, Florida, Hawaii and Texas.

California estimates it's population now at 200,000 pigs now. They rank third in feral pig population. Texas ranks first (1,000,000), Florida second (500,000).

Did you know that California tried to pass a bill (H.B. 2221) requiring land owners to destroy any feral swine on their property and failure to do so would have been a class A misdermeanor?

I'd say you have a bigger problem than you realize.

This raises a good question. Why does Texas have 5x the feral swine that California has? Texas has 64% more land area than California, so that could account for only a small portion of the difference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_area

Did that USDA study discuss the reasons?

 

[roo_ster]

AB does a have a valid point.

The attitudes of Texas land owners is definitely part of the problem. It is their land, though, and they have to live with the results of their decisions.

OTOH, I find I have less & less sympathy over the years when I hear how the hogs tear the ever-loving heck out of crops, pasture, etc. Crying "Woe!" and then charging hundreds of dollars to hunt destructive hogs or not allowing hunting leaves me cold.

For every white trash yahoo there are likely quite a few regular folks who would treat any land they walked or hunted with respect. If the hog menace was that great, one would think a rational land owner would take the time to separate the trash from the regular folk. That this does not occur leads me to believe that the hog problem is less than it is advertised, assuming a rational land owner.

Their land, their rules. Just don't get all cranky when I say, "Suck it it up, Buttercup," when they deny access or want to charge an arm & a leg.

 

[Flintknapper]

Wombat13 wrote:

I think that was AB's point. Fences don't stop hogs, but they do stop hunters. "Fences everywhere give the hogs plenty of places to hide."

Hog wire, field wire and deer proof fencing does not “completely” stop hogs from ranging onto property, but it does significantly impede their progress…and as such…is a useful tool. That is the literal side of it.

The OP makes the statement "Fences everywhere give the hogs plenty of places to hide." seeking to infer that private ownership of land is the cause of the pig population.

Of course, the premise being….that if only Joe Public had “access” to this land, the hog problem would quickly be solved. Phffffffft!

The “average” public lands hunter couldn’t find his butt with both hands, let alone a group of “seasoned” hogs in typical Texas terrain.

This raises a good question. Why does Texas have 5x the feral swine that California has? Texas has 64% more land area than California, so that could account for only a small portion of the difference.

Have you considered what TYPE of “land” it is…..vs. mere acreage? Both California and Texas consist of habitat that will “support” feral hogs, BUT that is quite different from land that is “ideal” for hogs (such as Texas).

Even on a small parcel of 400 acres….we do not have hogs on every square inch. There are certain areas that attract and hold hogs. We can make the analogy that Texas is such a place when compared to California.

The feral hog population in Texas has in recent years reached the point where it has grown exponentially (a hog explosion…if you will).

We are long past the point of potentially controlling the numbers. Most private land owners (with a significant problem) are taking measures to reduce the number of hogs.

Simply opening up your land to hunters (of unknown ability) is just asking for trouble…and will only serve to drive the hogs onto neighboring property.

Hogs are smart, tough and adaptive, that is why there are so many of them.

Umm...he wasn't switching from Texas to California, he was contrasting Texas to California.

It is a waste of time…..because CONTRAST is right. The two States and the conditions therein are so intrinsically different that no benefit can be realized by discussing it further.


Thanks,

Flint.

 

[chas08]

I think that was AB's point. Fences don't stop hogs, but they do stop hunters. "Fences everywhere give the hogs plenty of places to hide."

I suppose that it could be interpreted that way. But a hog won't hang around because he has a good place to hide. He hangs around because he has a good place to eat. And he'll be there no matter which side of the fence it's on.

I have no hard evidence to support it, but with Texas mostly being privately owned, I bet that it is more heavily hunted than most or maybe even all states with with a lot of public access. Because most ranching families hunt, or lease their land for hunting. And manage it responsibly. I can't think of a single landowner that I know, who doesn't have a shoot on sight policy for hogs.

 

[wombat13]

Wombat13 wrote:



Hog wire, field wire and deer proof fencing does not “completely” stop hogs from ranging onto property, but it does significantly impede their progress…and as such…is a useful tool. That is the literal side of it.

The OP makes the statement "Fences everywhere give the hogs plenty of places to hide." seeking to infer that private ownership of land is the cause of the pig population.

Of course, the premise being….that if only Joe Public had “access” to this land, the hog problem would quickly be solved. Phffffffft!

The “average” public lands hunter couldn’t find his butt with both hands, let alone a group of “seasoned” hogs in typical Texas terrain.




Have you considered what TYPE of “land” it is…..vs. mere acreage? Both California and Texas consist of habitat that will “support” feral hogs, BUT that is quite different from land that is “ideal” for hogs (such as Texas).

Even on a small parcel of 400 acres….we do not have hogs on every square inch. There are certain areas that attract and hold hogs. We can make the analogy that Texas is such a place when compared to California.

The feral hog population in Texas has in recent years reached the point where it has grown exponentially (a hog explosion…if you will).

We are long past the point of potentially controlling the numbers. Most private land owners (with a significant problem) are taking measures to reduce the number of hogs.

Simply opening up your land to hunters (of unknown ability) is just asking for trouble…and will only serve to drive the hogs onto neighboring property.

Hogs are smart, tough and adaptive, that is why there are so many of them.




It is a waste of time…..because CONTRAST is right. The two States and the conditions therein are so intrinsically different that no benefit can be realized by discussing it further.

So, if you want to continue lecturing Texans on how to deal with their hog problem ....please open your own thread and get out of mine.

Thanks,

Flint.

I don't know whether you are right or AB is. I was merely pointing out that you and others either didn't understand the points AB was making or you were willfully misinterpreting his statements because you don't like what he has to say. Show me where in my posts I lecture anyone on the issue of hogs.

When I read your post I see a whole lot of conjecture, a good deal of emotion, and not much fact. You haven't told me anything that I couldn't have guessed might contribute to the difference and you offer no evidence that there is a meaningful difference in habitat and that Texas has more ideal hog habitat.

 

[wombat13]

I suppose that it could be interpreted that way. But a hog won't hang around because he has a good place to hide. He hangs around because he has a good place to eat. And he'll be there no matter which side of the fence it's on.

I have no hard evidence to support it, but with Texas mostly being privately owned, I bet that it is more heavily hunted than most or maybe even all states with with a lot of public access. Because most ranching families hunt, or lease their land for hunting. And manage it responsibly. I can't think of a single landowner that I know, who doesn't have a shoot on sight policy for hogs.

You may be right, I don't know. Nowhere in any of my posts did I take a position on this issue. I merely pointed out that AB's arguments were being misrepresented.

Here is what seems to be established as fact:

1. Texas has very little or no public land.
2. Texas has a lot more hogs than California.

AB argues that #2 follows from #1. Others argue that it is habitat or some other reason. Unfortunately no one seems to have any evidence to make a convincing argument. I certainly don't. Anyone else?

 

[FLAvalanche]

This raises a good question. Why does Texas have 5x the feral swine that California has? Texas has 64% more land area than California, so that could account for only a small portion of the difference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_area

Did that USDA study discuss the reasons?

No the study doesn't say why the big difference in population.

I think it's two sided. I think Florida and Texas are better terrain for the hogs than California. I also think the lack of public hunting access is another reason. There are tons of land in both Florida and Texas that are prime hog terrain that people just don't have access too.

Now, the land access is a double edge sword. If you don't provide access the hogs can't get hunted. But like Flint said, if you do provide access, the hogs will just simply move next door.

No, I can't give you solid evidence outside of theory based on my experience with hogs. I can tell you this. Pressure hogs and they leave. If there was too much pressure on them in Texas and Florida they would simply leave. All the states surrounding Texas and Florida have great habitat for hog but their numbers are no where near what Texas and Florida numbers are so the hogs obviously aren't packing their crap and leaving for more peaceful pastures.

I can only support this by looking at Florida's Wildlife Management Areas which are public hunting lands. The population density of hogs in these areas is lower than anywhere else because there is much more hunting pressure on the hogs in those areas than on private lands. I will see more pigs at my feeder in one single night than I have seen hunting the WMAs in Florida in the past 4 years COMBINED.

Lack of hunting pressure + diverse, adaptable animal + dwindling hunters = pig bomb.

 

[chas08]

Nowhere in any of my posts did I take a position on this issue. I merely pointed out that AB's arguments were being misrepresented.

Here is what seems to be established as fact:

1. Texas has very little or no public land.
2. Texas has a lot more hogs than California.

I lived in California for the better part of the four years that I was in the service. The eastern half of that state is either desert or high desert. Not good hog habitat (they are very dependant on water) so if the hog population in CA. lives in only half the state, the numbers might actually be closer together if you compared them on a hog per acre basis.

I can remember when there weren't any wild hogs to speak of, in any numbers, in my area of Texas. I killed my first one in 1972 and it was considered a rarity at the time. If we had started the agressive approach that we have now back then, we might have stood a chance.

I don't feel that any amount of hunting can bring them under control today, public access or not. When I hear someone say "I wish we had hogs" I think; "you poor ignorant bleep" you don't know what you're wishing for.

This has been a great thread about a subject that I'm very passionate about, because of the exposure I've had to wild hogs over the last 38 years. It's been fun and I hope no one got their panties in a twist.

 

[Flintknapper]

wombat13 wrote:

I don't know whether you are right or AB is.

Then let me clear it up for you, I AM.

I am the person who actually lives in Texas, owns land in Texas, has a feral hog problem and have been battling it for 25 years.

I am the person who understands the demographics of Texas, the culture, the history and the attitude of the people. I (along with several million other landowners KNOW what works and what doesn't).

I was merely pointing out that you and others either didn't understand the points AB was making or you were willfully misinterpreting his statements because you don't like what he has to say.

No....we understood perfectly what his points were, we just disagree with them and are taking this occasion to point that out.

There is huge cultural divide between Western States hunters (with access to public lands) and hunters from other states comprised of mostly private lands. I wish it were not so....but it is.

Show me where in my posts I lecture anyone on the issue of hogs.

It seemed as if you were trying to take sides and support the position of the OP. If, as you say....you were merely pointing out where all of us had "misunderstood" the OP's points, then please accept my apology for the application of guilt by association.

When I read your post I see a whole lot of conjecture, a good deal of emotion, and not much fact.

Oh? Well please be specific in what you think was conjecture and while you are at it....cite your qualifications to determine what is fact.

You haven't told me anything that I couldn't have guessed might contribute to the difference

Then.... a person as astute as you claim to be...shouldn't need to solicit that information now, right?

and you offer no evidence that there is a meaningful difference in habitat and that Texas has more ideal hog habitat.

Nor...have you offered evidence to suggest that there is not. If that is your contention....get busy and give us some info.

I'm to going to guess that you are from the "Show-Me-State" or of the ilk that requires pages of links to Population Studies, State Resources, Wildlife Management, etc... to be convinced.

I am sure you will feel it incumbent upon me...to prove the point... and normally I would agree. But anyone that has been to either state....and knows even a little about hogs.... should be able to readily discern the difference.

So...rather than waste time on something so plain as to not require argument, I will shift the burden of proof to you...(if you'd like to devote the time to a rebuttal....or enlighten us with any more "fact").

Flint.

 

[Flintknapper]

chas08 wrote:

I

lived in California for the better part of the four years that I was in the service. The western half of that state is either desert or high desert. Not good hog habitat (they are very dependant on water) so if the hog population in CA. lives in only half the state, the numbers might actually be closer together if you compared them on a hog per acre basis.

I can remember when there weren't any wild hogs to speak of, in any numbers, in my area of Texas. I killed my first one in 1972 and it was considered a rarity at the time. If we had started the agressive approach that we have now back then, we might have stood a chance. I don't feel that any amount of hunting can bring them under control today, public access or not. When I hear someone say "I wish we had hogs" I think; "you poor ignorant bleep" you don't know what you're wishing for.

This has been a great thread about a subject that I'm very passionate about, because of the exposure I've had to wild hogs over the last 38 years. It's been fun and I hope no one got their panties in a twist.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

There's your answer folks.