Will Pistol Iron Sights go the way of rifle sights and AR carry handle?

[Trey Veston]

In a way, red dots are like digital watches and iron sights are like the regular analog watches. Both do the same thing, but the digital readout and red dot make things easier.

But unlike the digital readout, some folks find acquiring the red dot to take longer and be less instinctive.

I tried a red dot on my carry gun and I found that the extra bulk and the required suppressor sights made it less practical for carry. So I took them off. Now, if I decide to retire that gun as a carry pistol, then I would definitely go back to the red dot since it was much more accurate for me and my aging eyes when shooting.

I use a red dot on my camping and hiking carbines and love them.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

In a way, red dots are like digital watches and iron sights are like the regular analog watches.

Good analogy. Even more so because I still wear an analog watch. And shoot iron sights. Which are on my AR-15's fixed carry handle. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go; it's time for me to listen to Jack Benny on my AM radio. The tubes are just about warmed up.

 

[Obturation]

Not until they get as rugged and relatively inexpensive as iron sights, and no batteries are needed.

Yep. Except the battery thing. If a battery lasts 5 years on full brightness, that's acceptable to me. Heck night sights get noticeably dimmer in less than a decade. So maintenance is ok but they need to be small, rugged and not $500.

 

[35 Whelen]

For my uses, red dots are an unnecessary appendage and just something else to get broken or rendered unusable. But then again, I for the most part don't care for adjustable sights on handguns. I think they're fine for general shooting and playing games with guns, but for real world use and out there in the woods carry, no thanks.

35W

 

[Casefull]

Not a chance. Misunderstanding of what a pistol is for.

 

[ATLDave]

Not a chance. Misunderstanding of what a pistol is for.

Putting rounds on a target, rapidly, at close to moderate distances?

 

[AK103K]

Putting rounds on a target, rapidly, at close to moderate distances?

Yup, and "anything" that helps you do that effectively is a plus.

This is one of those things that shows the importance of "continuing education". If you allow yourself to get stuck at a certain point, you tend to get left behind.

The big advantage to those who have been around and moved along with things as they changed is, they have learned the whole package as they went, what worked well for them, what didnt, and still have those positive skills in their bag of tricks.

Just because its "old school" doesnt mean it doesnt work. Those who are fans of the Bruce Lee school of learning get even more from it too. Blending old and new, can often make things even more effective, and you more flexible.

But, if you only know, old school, or new school, you really only know what you know, and if you dont keep learning, forward or back, you tend to stagnate and get stuck.

 

[Casefull]

If you’re halfway good with a pistol you don’t even need sights of any kind. They are nice if you’re shooting out to 100 yards but 20 or 30 yards not really necessary. Some of you guys must be naturally bad shots. LOL

 

[AK103K]

If you’re halfway good with a pistol you don’t even need sights of any kind. They are nice if you’re shooting out to 100 yards but 20 or 30 yards not really necessary. Some of you guys must be naturally bad shots. LOL

And some never seem to be as good as they tell you, when you get them to a range, hand them a gun, and say "show me". Funny how that works, isnt it.

It's the age of the smart phone, and some still insist, the Amish Palm Pilot, is state of the art.

 

[labnoti]

I can't say I know what will happen to the handgun market, but for me, I've moved to reflex sights on handguns and I'm beginning to favor iron sights on rifles. My handgun(s) are for concealed carry and personal protection and I don't have any trouble holstering, concealing, or drawing with the reflex sight. I am not worried about battery life and I do not use backup iron sights. I can make hits with the reflex sight off, the LED blocked, or the screen broken or occluded front or rear. My conclusion is that competency in malfunction drills is better than cluttering the sight picture with co-witnessed BUIS all the time, which still fail with the glass occluded.

I would also say that problems finding the dot are likely to be solved by changing the grip. With revolvers, it really is just a grip change. With autos it can either mean retraining grip and presentation technique, or changing the grip angle which usually means changing the whole pistol. If you experiment with different grips/pistols, you will see there is a significant difference in how easy it is to find the dot or how likely the presentation will result in a need to move the gun again before the dot is visible.

Now if I was using my rifle for combat, home defense, personal protection and so on then I would go reflex or holographic all the way, or if I was shooting out past 500 yards I would go with a telescope. But big game at 50, 100, even 200 yards doesn't really call for a telescope. All my rifles have them -- nice Leupold. The next one I outfit could very well be an aperture sight instead. Probably not a carry handle on an AR, but maybe an old school Lyman on a bolt action.

 

[valnar]

All my new pistols will have red dots. Not necessarily because of desire, but because I can't focus on the iron sights like I used to. I'm glad we have the options today unlike decades ago.

 

[ATLDave]

If you’re halfway good with a pistol you don’t even need sights of any kind. They are nice if you’re shooting out to 100 yards but 20 or 30 yards not really necessary. Some of you guys must be naturally bad shots. LOL

Using the Force?

 

[FlSwampRat]

Not until they get as rugged and relatively inexpensive as iron sights, and no batteries are needed.

In a way, red dots are like digital watches and iron sights are like the regular analog watches. Both do the same thing, but the digital readout and red dot make things easier.

I have friends who don't wear watches and insist that it's easier to just look at their cell phones. Which they have to dig out of their pockets instead of just rotating their wrist and looking down at it.

Good analogy. Even more so because I still wear an analog watch. And shoot iron sights. Which are on my AR-15's fixed carry handle.

I think it largely rests of what you "grew up" with. Many kids today can't read an analog clock. They'll have problems if someone says "Watch your 6." If you say "12 O'clock high" they'll think someone got loaded at noon.

Fun exercise. Open windows explorer or some version thereof and look at the icon of an image. JPEG, GIF, doesn't matter. Right click on it. Windows, through version 8 offered the option to "rotate clockwise" or "rotate counterclockwise". Now it's "rotate right" or "rotate left". Why? Read the above.

I started shooting with iron sights and still am most comfortable with them unless shooting at distance. Since I don't compete in accuracy events anymore the only person with whom I'm in any sort of competition is myself and my last score. Yes, I have firearms with scopes attached, but the bulk of my shooting is with irons. I like it that way. I don't care if someone else uses some sort of optic, I shoot for my pleasure just as they do for their enjoyment.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go; it's time for me to listen to Jack Benny on my AM radio. The tubes are just about warmed up.

The 12AX7's heat up faster than the 6L6's.

 

[Casefull]

I understand if some (Dave) have trouble with pistols. Maybe more practice would help. As the great Yogi Berra said, “if you can do it it isn’t bragging “. BTW I am heading to the range with my wife this morning. She’s going to get some practice in with her 40 Cal 229.

 

[ATLDave]

I understand if some (Dave) have trouble with pistols. Maybe more practice would help. As the great Yogi Berra said, “if you can do it it isn’t bragging “. BTW I am heading to the range with my wife this morning. She’s going to get some practice in with her 40 Cal 229.

I'll get some practice this evening when I shoot the indoor USPSA match that I shoot pretty much every week. Same match I ran for a little over 4 years. I do plan to use my sight, though... mainly because I would like to win, or at least place well.

 

[loneviking]

I find it interesting that apparently some older folks find the red dots easier to see. I’m 59, and like most folks my age I have to use reading glasses.

The problem with a red dot is that it takes time to find it. It’s too far away for reading glasses, usually too close for my driving glasses and without glasses takes a bit to find. But with a set of Big Dot sights I have no problem immediately finding and hitting the target. So, I’m hoping iron sights don’t go the way of the dinosaurs!

 

[jmorris]

Since 1990 no person has won the National USPSA using iron sights. Think about that for a minute.

Depends on what division your talking about, that said putting a red dot on your pistol, in itself won’t make you a winner.

The good guys are good even if they are not aiming.

 

[ATLDave]

The problem with a red dot is that it takes time to find it.

Truly, truly, truly, this is solely a function of practice.

 

[ATLDave]

Depends on what division your talking about, that said putting a red dot on your pistol, in itself won’t make you a winner.

The good guys are good even if they are not aiming.

Of course. And, yet, both of those guys have sights on their guns. Vogel's an iron-sights guy and competes in iron-sight divisions, but he has and uses those sights. Taran is an optics guy, and he has and uses optics on all his competition guns.

Putting a red-dot on your gun won't make you a winner in competition in part because it will move you to a division where everyone has a dot! But it will generally increase your raw performance, at least once you've re-learned the index.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

The problem with a red dot is that it takes time to find it. It’s too far away for reading glasses, usually too close for my driving glasses and without glasses takes a bit to find.

This is the biggest problem currently with red dot sights on pistols... There is a significant lack of education and training on how they are supposed to be used. This is particularly troublesome for people that grew up shooting front sight focus. The red dot being too far for reading glasses and too close for driving glasses tells me that you are trying to acquire the front sight still. You should be focusing on the target, not the sight.

Focus on the target. Present the firearm. Pull the trigger when dot appears where you want the bullet to go. If you practice the presentation of your firearm by focusing on the target only and bringing the gun into the line with your sight, you will acquire the dot very rapidly.

Which oddly enough is an often unspoken advantage of the red dot. Target focus. You are looking at the target and what it is doing the whole time instead of trying to focus on a small piece of metal.

 

[ATLDave]

A little data to consider about the effect that red-dots have on the kind of shooting performance measured by USPSA (which is a mix of speed and accuracy).

• In USPSA, Limited division is the most tricked-out, race-gun division that does not allow optical sights. It's filled with big double-stack 1911/2011 things with <2lb SAO triggers, magwells, thumb rests, and extended magazines. Everyone who is serious about it shoots .40 cal, because in Limited .40 cal means you are eligible for "major scoring." Major scoring means you get 5 points for an A, 4 points for a C*, and 2 points for a D.
• In USPSA, Carry Optics is a relatively new division that requires a Production-type gun (striker fired or DA/SA) and a slide-mounted optic (similar to the things people might use on carry guns). It's filled with CZ's and Tanfo DA/SA's, Sig 320's and Glock 34's, Canick's, etc. Also, it is only eligible for "minor scoring," and everyone shoots 9mm. In minor, you get the same 5 points for an A, but get only 3 points for a C, and just 1 point for a D. The guns also have a weight limit. Thus, not only are the triggers not as good as the Limited guns, the smaller absolute recoil of 9mm is somewhat offset by the lighter weight of the guns.
• Because of the scoring differences, if you have a Limited shooter and a Carry Optics shooter who shoot the same time and same hits, the Limited shooter will do better in the match because of the scoring advantage on non-perfect hits.**

Now let's look at the most recent USPSA nationals that combined Limited and Carry Optics shooters on the same courses of fire. https://practiscore.com/results/new/93422 While JJ Racaza in Limited did edge out Max Michel in Carry Optics, Max was literally at 99.9% of JJ's hit factor score. In raw inputs, Max was faster (257 seconds versus 264 seconds), and had better hits (365 A's to 331 A's). And looking up and down the standings, it's a good mix of LTD and CO shooters. Both groups had outstanding shooters participating, so this is a relatively fair comparison in terms of shooting skill/talent.

What can we learn from this? Remember the major scoring advantage that the Limited shooters get. Despite that big advantage (and the other, more modest gear-based advantages they have), CO and LTD generate similar results. If you back out that scoring different, it is apparent that a red-dot on a handgun makes the best shooters in the world significantly better than they are without a red-dot. If that weren't the case, the other advantages of LTD would mean that CO wouldn't be competitive heads-up versus LTD (just as iron-sighted Production is not competitive heads-up against LTD).

If a red-dot makes world class competitors - most of whom made a big part of their career and livelihood shooting iron-sighted guns - better, why would it not make average shooters better? You may not like red-dots, or you may not want to use red-dots. That's fine. But it is objectively true that red-dots improve handgun shooting, particularly when it comes to combined speed and accuracy. That's a demonstrated fact, not an opinion.

* B no longer exists, but was scored the same as a C anyway.
** USPSA isn't a game of perfect. Nobody who is competitive shoots all A-hits... it would take far too much time. Winning shooters will shoot more A's than anything else by a wide margin, but they will have a lot of C hits and probably a few D's.

 

[ATLDave]

The red dot being too far for reading glasses and too close for driving glasses tells me that you are trying to acquire the front sight still. You should be focusing on the target, not the sight.... You are looking at the target and what it is doing the whole time instead of trying to focus on a small piece of metal.

Exactly.

What's funny is when some of the posters are harumphing about any sighting device because "in a gunfight you'll be too busy looking at the bad guy's gun to even see your sights!" Which misses the key fact that red dots work while you are looking at the target. That's why they're even better for combat/practical shooting than for target shooting!!

 

[loneviking]

This is the biggest problem currently with red dot sights on pistols... There is a significant lack of education and training on how they are supposed to be used. This is particularly troublesome for people that grew up shooting front sight focus. The red dot being too far for reading glasses and too close for driving glasses tells me that you are trying to acquire the front sight still. You should be focusing on the target, not the sight.

Focus on the target. Present the firearm. Pull the trigger when dot appears where you want the bullet to go. If you practice the presentation of your firearm by focusing on the target only and bringing the gun into the line with your sight, you will acquire the dot very rapidly.

Which oddly enough is an often unspoken advantage of the red dot. Target focus. You are looking at the target and what it is doing the whole time instead of trying to focus on a small piece of metal.

But I’m not looking down the sights trying to find the red dot. And I can find it, after 2 or 3 seconds which can be an eternity in a gunfight.

Here’s something I tried that showed me that red dots aren’t for me. Give this a try. Go down to Goodwill and buy a couple of cheap, plaid shirts. Try to find one that’s blue/green, and another that’s red checked.

Take your man sized targets out to the range and put the shirt over your targets. Set the target out there at about 10 yards in sunlight. And then 20 yards. See if you can find your dot and how long it takes you to find it. I was using a Crimson Trace red laser and it was time consuming and tough to find.

I don’t have that problem with open sights. YMMV, and if you can pick that dot up quick, even in sunlight, I can see the advantage. But I can’t seem to do it.

 

[ATLDave]

I was using a Crimson Trace red laser

Laser =/= dot. Laser < dot.

 

[Havok7416]

A laser and a a red dot and two completely different things. I have two red dot-equipped pistols as well as several with lasers. The red dot shows up in the window but does not transmit to the target. The downside is it adds bulk to the pistol (some lasers do also but mine are all built into the grips).

Learning where the dot will appear is no different than learning where the iron sights will appear, with the exception that most of us have learned our whole shooting lives where to find the irons. It's second nature. Once I learned how to interact with my red dot it appeared in the window every time. It will teach you what you are changing each time you draw or realign the gun. I see (and teach) a lot of people who don't maintain consistency shot to shot (they move their hands, head and/or the gun itself in between shots). These are the people IME who have the hardest time finding the dot.