Triggernosis
Member
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2010
- Messages
- 500
I know lighter bullets will typically shoot lower out of revolver. Will pushing a heavy bullet faster also cause it to shoot lower?
Will speeding up a heavy bullet cause it to shoot lower?
- Thread starter Triggernosis
- Start date
- Status
But more velocity means it exits sooner as well. To me it's not an exact science. Best way to know for sure is try it.
All I know for sure is a fast heavy recoil light bullet will hit lower than a slow heavy recoil heavy bullet. Somewhere in between they meet.
All I know for sure is a fast heavy recoil light bullet will hit lower than a slow heavy recoil heavy bullet. Somewhere in between they meet.
Too many variables to say.
- As soon as a bullet exits the muzzle, gravity starts to accelerate it towards the ground. This happens at the same rate regardless of the bullet's weight, so making a bullet go faster means it has less time to fall so if every other variable was held constant, it would shoot higher, not lower.
- A faster load generally means more perceived recoil and this can affect the angle the muzzle is pointed when the bullet exits. That can cause the bullet to tend higher or lower depending on how the shooter reacts.
- Depending on the distance from the target, a heavy bullet pushed to higer velocities may lose velocity faster due to increased drag and this would tend to make it shoot lower.
- The heavier bullet having greater inertia may retain its velocity longer and this would tend to make it shoot higher.
As Walkalong said, the best way to know for your gun, your load and your hand is to experiment.
The bullet has left the barrel long before recoil even begins. Recoil has absolutely no effect on where the bullet hits. Slow-motion video has proved that. Different weight bullets will strike higher or lower due to different trajectories, not recoil.
bluetopper
Member
The above is apples to oranges if you have a long barreled revolver.
Then why are handgun front sight reference points are higher above bore axis than rear sight ones? Their bore axis points below the aiming point when the ammo primer fires.
Double rifle's bore axes cross 10 to 20 yards down range for the same reasons.
All firearm bore axes move at some angle while bullets go through them. None point to a place above aiming point equal to bullet drop plus sight height above bore when primers fire. It varies with how the arm is held. That's why sight settings will differ across several people shooting the same arm and ammo getting zeros for them. Maybe worth a new thread about this phenomena.
Those videos don't show the bore axis angling up several MOA while bullets go through them as the recoil axis is above the grip axis. A 5" barrel muzzle moving up .014" pointing 10 MOA higher, that's 2.5 inches at 25 yards.
Last edited:
Varminterror
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2016
- Messages
- 15,133
Not before it imparts a greater recoil impulse to the barrel. It doesn't "outrun the recoil." The bullet is going one way, the gun is going the other, the faster one goes, the faster the other must go also. More velocity means more recoil in a shorter impulse, so more muzzle flip. For a revolver sight reliant upon barrel rise to zero POI, it'll hit same point or higher, not lower.
For those watching the videos and claiming the handgun has not moved - consider this:
The angular dispersion of a rise in POI of 1" at 25yrds is equivalent to only 3thousandths of an inch over the length of a 3" barrel. One inch out of 900" (25yrds), times 3" is 0.0033" muzzle deflection.
Are you SURE that muzzle in the video doesn't move even 0.003" before the bullet leaves the barrel? No question the recoil operated action has not yet sufficiently accelerated to unlock and begin slide movement, but show me how those videos are proof the barrel has not yet moved on the magnitude of thousandths of inches.
Muzzle rise does make a difference. A tiny bit of movement, as alluded to by Varminterror, will make a difference on target. And I am going to disagree that velocity doesn't make a difference. Yes, more velocity makes more recoil, but it still makes a difference. I have seen the difference in the field with revolvers.
But I can't prove any of it.
But I can't prove any of it.
Blue68f100
Member
On 1911's the barrel is not parallel with the top of the slide. It has a slight angle set into it.
Varminterror
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2016
- Messages
- 15,133
Velocity DOES make a difference - but opposite of what a lot of folks might think. Again - you can't outrun recoil - the faster the bullet goes (for same weight bullet), the more it recoils, the greater the acceleration of the revolver, the faster the muzzle flips (and MORE it flips), so a faster heavy pill at moderate ranges will tend to rise.
Of course, it only REALLY reveals itself at short distances. Get out there far enough where group sizes start hiding POI shifts, and where the difference in muzzle flip and sight offset are overwhelmed by bullet drop, it all becomes trivial.
Of course, it only REALLY reveals itself at short distances. Get out there far enough where group sizes start hiding POI shifts, and where the difference in muzzle flip and sight offset are overwhelmed by bullet drop, it all becomes trivial.
RecoilRob
Member
Lots depends on the weight of the gun as to how succeptible to recoil induced rise it'll be. Years ago I had a Charter Arms Target Bulldog 4" 44 Special that was sighted in for about 40 yds and would hit a 55 gal drum dead center at this distance if you did your part. Funny thing was...if you looked at someone shooting (and hitting) at that drum the barrel was pointing at the ground less than halfway to the target. It absolutely did rise a LOT before the bullet could leave and was very sensitive to bullet weight as to where it would hit elevation wise. Larger and heavier guns are going to be less affected by the recoil rise phenomenon...but it's still going to be present, just not as pronounced.
Shaq, I wish I had a hundred bucks for every time I was shown why so many of my early beliefs on ballistics
were shattered by sound reasoning and acquired knowledge of simple physics. One of my early ones was believing that all bullets shot will form a perfect circle about the point of aim starting at some place then going clockwise as the barrel heated up; counter clockwise for left hand rifling twists. And no bullet could ever hit point of aim because of this phenomena with rifled bores. Not so with smooth bores.
were shattered by sound reasoning and acquired knowledge of simple physics. One of my early ones was believing that all bullets shot will form a perfect circle about the point of aim starting at some place then going clockwise as the barrel heated up; counter clockwise for left hand rifling twists. And no bullet could ever hit point of aim because of this phenomena with rifled bores. Not so with smooth bores.
Last edited:
bluetopper
Member
I just know in a 10" barrel 44 Mag revolver a very mild load of Unique will shoot markedly higher at 25 and 50 yards than a max charge of 2400 or H-110.
The only thing I can figure out as to why is muzzle rise from recoil is taking more of an effect before the bullet leaves the barrel in the mild load.
The only thing I can figure out as to why is muzzle rise from recoil is taking more of an effect before the bullet leaves the barrel in the mild load.
A bullet going faster has less time in the barrel for recoil to affect barrel position. So, the bullet exits the barrel earlier in the recoil affect/muzzle rise with a POI lower than a slower bullet.. This is from my experience, what I've read, and just logical. (just yesterday I shot some .44 Magnums, 240 gr. RNFP. One with a heavy charge and one with lighter charges. The POI of the faster bullets was 2" lower at 25 yds.).
Triggernosis
Member
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2010
- Messages
- 500
Well I'm just going to have to try it out with my gun and see what happens. I'll load a handful of cat-sneeze rounds and a handful of stout rounds in my .32 H&R and see what it does.
Should I shoot it from a rest or freehand?
Should I shoot it from a rest or freehand?
Master Blaster
Member
Try both and let us know how it turns out! More important is how you plan to shoot it under normal conditions.
I keep reading this comment and the statement that if you turn a pistol upside down and lay it on a flat surface you will see the angle that is created by the sights being at different heights. I wonder if anybody has really tested these statements because I have and they don't prove true for me. The sights do sit at different heights relative to the bore centerline but that's because the physical location of the rear mounting point is normally higher than the mounting point for the front sight. In order for the sight line to be level the top of the front sight must be higher (relative to the bore centerline) than the top of the rear sight. If you actually turn your pistol upside down and lay it on a flat surface, and then insert a gauge pin of a diameter that just fits inside the bore then you can lay a level on the pin and see that the pin is level. That proves that the tops of the sights and the center of the bore are parallel.
Not true, there is no movement of the firearm due to gas expansion until the bullet exits the muzzle. I'm sure everyone can agree that pressurized gas that is in a vessel will push with equal force in all directions. The bore of a firearm is simply a small diameter vessel and at any moment in time the pressure in the bore presses equally in all directions. We also know that when a force is opposed by an equal and opposite force the net force in either direction is zero, so that means that at any specific moment in time, while the bullet is in the bore, the net pressure in any direction is zero - there is no force in any direction that will cause the barrel to move, any movement is created by the shooter. When the bullet leaves the barrel the force pushing against the bolt face isn't opposed by an equal force so at that instant the weapon rotates around the body part that resists the unopposed force (rotating the firearm around your hand or shoulder). It's just like having a gas bottle in your garage, as long as the valve is closed and the gas is contained within the bottle nothing happens because the gas pressure is pushing in all directions with the same amount of force so the net force in any direction is zero. But if you were to knock the valve off the bottle then the bottle will take off like a rocket because the force of the gas against bottom of the bottle isn't being opposed by an equal and opposite force at the valve.
The problem with this analogy is that you forgot the bullet is moving. Considering the center of mass of a system doesn't move unless acted on by an external force, the center of mass should be constant (negating small changes by the shooter -- use a Ransom rest if you want to remove that effect). That means that if the bullet/gasses is moving, the gun is moving.
If you watch this video, , you can see the slide move before the bullet exits.
How much difference this makes, I don't know.
- Status
Similar threads
