Winchester 244

[Pat Riot]

Of course. Man, that will be the last time I post without my first cup of coffee, gents. Sorry. W231 indeed. Yikes. Good thing I am not doing my taxes today.

Fixed my previous post. Thanks.

Haha! Been there done that more times than I could ever count.
I recently grabbed a box of Hornady 225 gr FTX bullets for .45 Colt. When I loaded them per Hornady’s dimensions something wasn’t right so I emailed them. Turns out I had bought a box of 250 gr FTX bullets for 450 Bushmaster. Talk about embarrassing… And that was after coffees, yes, coffees (plural)

 

[tightgroup tiger]

that will be the last time I post without my first cup of coffee,

Your living dangerously, posting without that first cup. I won't do it. No way!

Anyone ever get as tired ot their chronograph as the are their bore scope.

I won't buy a bore scope, I'm not going down that rabbit hole.

I'm using the Garmin C1 Pro, It's so easy to use that it stays it stays in my range bag full time now. I never owned a real chronograph. To big and cluncky for me.

I think Win 244 is a good powder, as most of them are, I think that most of the newer powders have a narrower field of use, than the originals, like Win 231, Unique, Bullseye, 2400 and so on, or maybe I'm just perceiving it that way. Maybe we older guys just were so used to using these legacy powders for everything because it's all that was out there, back then.

There are so many more different powders now that I can't keep track of them all. Reloading was definitely simpler back then.

If you compare velocity numbers between Universal and most the other powders in it's burn rate, it is a littler slower in velocity than most all of them also. It's still lasted the test of time so far.

For me, first and foremost, they have to make accurate loads. Speed for me is a lesser concern.

 

[3sport]

Haha! Been there done that more times than I could ever count.
I recently grabbed a box of Hornady 225 gr FTX bullets for .45 Colt. When I loaded them per Hornady’s dimensions something wasn’t right so I emailed them. Turns out I had bought a box of 250 gr FTX bullets for 450 Bushmaster. Talk about embarrassing… And that was after coffees, yes, coffees (plural)

Thank you for that. Great story, and it makes me feel like I have some company in my error. The older I get, the more I need to wait until I wake up to do anything that involves numbers or precision.

 

[Pat Riot]

All very good reading and testing.
Anyone ever get as tired ot their chronograph as the are their bore scope. After a while you can figure close . I like reading about powders I use that others say isn't good.
I'm sure I'm missing the point but a little less FPS out of a hand held device isn't a deal killer. Excluding competitors .
So many good powders. It's sometimes better to pick one commonly avaliable. I hate throwing money at shipping and hazmat.

I have never owned a Chronograph (edited). Why? I know me. I would get way too caught up in the numbers and trying to match published velocities and so on.

Reloading is a pastime that I enjoy. I focus on accuracy. If loading expanding pistol or rifle bullets I load within the manufacture’s specs for published velocities.

A few years back a buddy of mine loaned me his chronometer. I started testing all my hand loads and second guessing my whole approach to my reloads because my loads didn’t meet with some gun writers ideals on certain cartridges and bullets. I went way down a rabbit hole.
One night I awoke at 2 in the morning thinking about how I could “fix” a perfectly good load I had used for years.
The next day I gave him back his chronograph.
I never load ammo outside manufacture recommendations.
The paper and steel I have shot never gets up and walks away so my target loads must be adequate.

 

[DMW1116]

I try to have a couple of powders/combos for each load for substitution purposes. TAC/CFE 223 for 55 grain 223. H335/W231 for cast bullets in 30-30. W231/CFE Pistol for 9mm and light/target 357 Mag.

 

[Charlie98]

I think that most of the newer powders have a narrower field of use

I would tend to agree... and even with rifle powders. Sometimes new is good, sometimes not so much.

There are so many more different powders now that I can't keep track of them all. Reloading was definitely simpler back then.

Part of our problem today is availability. Seemingly gone are the days where you could just walk into the store and grab a pound or eight of Unique, or 2400, or whatever, and a box of primers. Having to develop a workaround because you can't find a specific powder, primer, or bullet has driven us to finding alternates. Me thinks some of these new powders wouldn't have the fans they do if people weren't forced into using them. Why would you grab W244 if that trusty W231 is setting right there next to it? I wasted my time with IMR4451 because I couldn't find H or IMR4350 for loading 6.5ManBun, and then all of the Enduron powders were discontinued, anyway... so much for 'new and improved.'

I went way down a rabbit hole.

But you don't have to. I use my chrono all the time... but I also understand that velocity isn't the Alpha and Omega... it's simply a piece of the handloader's puzzle that can provide really good feedback on your handloads. At the end of the day, of course, what shows up on the target trumps any chrono readings... good or bad... but it's valuable information. Don't let the tail wag the dog... or bunny, in this case.

 

[Jim Watson]

Winchester intended 244 to be a more ecologically friendly powder replacement for #231 but various commercial loaders and most reloaders voted with their dollars hence 231/HP38 is still with us….

So why didn't they make it a direct grain for grain replacement, call it Win 231 Clean?

A manufacturer will replace or upgrade his powder mill, an importer will change sources, but the powder formulation is tweaked to take the same loading data.
Frex, AA has brought in powder from all over the world, but it is still labeled #2, #5, #7, #9.
If you can find any of the Clays family, it is now made in Canada, not Australia due to various hangups at ADI.

So why two similar but not identical powders?

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I shot two 10 shot strings of win244 at 4.3 gr with everything else being the same as my 4.5 load I already posted.
First string was an avg of 1044.8 fps
second string was an avg of 1049.4 fps. Same gun, same everything, I lost a lot of velocity for only dropping .2 gr, from 4.5 to 4.3.
4.1 gr will be next.

 

[GooseGestapo]

So why didn't they make it a direct grain for grain replacement, call it Win 231 Clean?

A manufacturer will replace or upgrade his powder mill, an importer will change sources, but the powder formulation is tweaked to take the same loading data.
Frex, AA has brought in powder from all over the world, but it is still labeled #2, #5, #7, #9.
If you can find any of the Clays family, it is now made in Canada, not Australia due to various hangups at ADI.

So why two similar but not identical powders?

From what I’ve read, Win231 manufacture requires some compounds not liked by the EPA. Environmental protection regulations make the manufacture more difficult and expensive.
Win244 is manufactured by newer more environmentally friendly processes that make it cheaper to manufacture.
But the resulting powder is slower and not quite as good according to reports. For SOME applications HP38/231 is my favorite pistol powder, so as long as it’s sold I’ll use it.
However some other old favorites are just too expensive! Herco, Unique, and Blue Dot have priced themselves out of the market… $75/lb after shipping, hazmat, and taxes is over the top! The most recent pound of Bullseye ran me $55 at a big box store… Maybe my last pound.

 

[GooseGestapo]

I have never owned a Chronometer. Why? I know me. I would get way too caught up in the numbers and trying to match published velocities and so on.

Reloading is a pastime that I enjoy. I focus on accuracy. If loading expanding pistol or rifle bullets I load within the manufacture’s specs for published velocities.

A few years back a buddy of mine loaned me his chronometer. I started testing all my hand loads and second guessing my whole approach to my reloads because my loads didn’t meet with some gun writers ideals on certain cartridges and bullets. I went way down a rabbit hole.
One night I awoke at 2 in the morning thinking about how I could “fix” a perfectly good load I had used for years.
The next day I gave him back his chronometer.
I never load ammo outside manufacture recommendations.
The paper and steel I have shot never gets up and walks away so my target loads must be adequate.

What? You’ve never owned a WATCH ?
A chronometer is a time piece…
A chronograph is used for measuring the speed (velocity) of a projectile…
But I “ think” we know what you meant.

 

[Pat Riot]

What? You’ve never owned a WATCH ?
A chronometer is a time piece…
A chronograph is used for measuring the speed (velocity) of a projectile…
But I “ think” we know what you meant.

Ya know, when I posted that I knew something was off. I just edited it. Thanks.

 

[Charlie98]

So why didn't they make it a direct grain for grain replacement, call it Win 231 Clean?

Because it's not the same powder, and they probably couldn't get it close enough in burn rate to match existing W231 data... which would be dangerous in any event, simply because it's not the same powder.

From what I’ve read, Win231 manufacture requires some compounds not liked by the EPA. Environmental protection regulations make the manufacture more difficult and expensive.

That's my understanding for it as well. My guess is that's why TrailBoss is no longer with us, too, etc, etc.

I think we are in a no-man's land of powder manufacturing. They are still making 'messy' powders like W231, along with 'green' powders like W244... which is obviously intended to replace W231. I think... eventually... we will get to a point where the manufacturers will either get bullied (by the EPA, et al...) to drop the 'messy' powders, and/or the profitability margin for something like W231 will be so low they will opt to just discontinue it. Handloaders will complain mightily... just look at the TrailBoss users... but, as always, everyone will find a way to continue on... because at the end of the day, they still have to handload.

 

[Viking painter]

I do not have experience with 244 in the calibers you mention, but I have used lots of it in .44 Special +P / mid-range .44 Magnum loads. 7.5-8 grains of 244 behind a 240 grain LSWC yields 975-1025 fps in my 6” Colt Anaconda, with excellent accuracy. Most notable is the consistency; extreme spreads with this load are never more than 10 fps and it is not position sensitive in my experience. I also love that it’s cheap, cheap, cheap compared to other powders. I bought my last few pounds of 244 at $30.99. I haven’t tried it in .38 special but might when my jug of Ramshot Silhouette runs dry (a perfect .38 Special powder in my estimation). W244 tends to produce velocities a bit lower than published - that’s the only negative I’ve experienced. Now I run all my loads over a chronograph (Garmin Xero, love it).

I’ve found the consistency of wc244 to be the same as you have found. I use it in 9mm ,45 acp, 38 spcl, and all loads have es below 10 and sd in single digits. Very consistent, clean, and accurate. The price was great until just recently but that is across the board with powder price increases. The most notable use for me is with 9mm 135 gr and 124 gr loads for suppressed 10.5” ar sbr. 124 gr fmj @4.1 gr gets 1140-1150 fps es 11 sd 4 within 1-2 of each of those numbers every time. Tried it in 55 degrees and 95 degrees and the change was less than 5 fps. Sparkling clean suppressor and BCG too, great stuff!