Winchester PDX1 Bonded.
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Good stuff, one of the latest and greatest.
I think its reboxed Ranger Bonded ammo, someone correct me if thats not true though. Ranger Bonded is what the FBI chose
Federal HST and Barnes TAC-XP (bullets) are probably the latest, but who knows if they are the greatest, I would trust any of the above to do there job.
I think its reboxed Ranger Bonded ammo, someone correct me if thats not true though. Ranger Bonded is what the FBI chose
Federal HST and Barnes TAC-XP (bullets) are probably the latest, but who knows if they are the greatest, I would trust any of the above to do there job.
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Well, it's one of the latest and greatest designs, and is indeed the same as Ranger Bonded, of which the FBI, for instance, currently uses the 180 grain .40 S&W load (as well as the 147 grain 9mm load for agents who opt for a 9mm pistol). That's the load that I happen to use, too. Generally speaking, it will tend to penetrate more than the related Ranger-T or the Federal HST, and expand slightly less (one has to make tradeoffs somewhere).
After penetrating hard barriers, the HST will expand in flesh more consistently and penetrate less than usual due to the momentum that is lost, while the Ranger bullets will expand substantially less than usual sometimes and penetrate the same or even more. Those who favor consistent expansion will love HST, while those who favor penetration will love Ranger-T and Ranger Bonded (I personally favor keeping penetration high, with large expansion just a bonus).
The relevant design difference here is probably the size of the hollow-point cavity, which in the HST is both exceptionally deep and wide, favoring consistent expansion. One of the costs, however, is reduced feeding reliability in some guns (not a common issue, but more common than it is with Ranger ammo), in addition to reduced penetration under some circumstances, as mentioned earlier. This should be enough information to get an idea of what kind of performance characteristics you prefer--note that these are only tendencies because lots of unpredictable random crap happens when bullets hit flesh and bone. The Barnes TAC-XP is also definitely worth looking into, although I'm not as familiar with it.
After penetrating hard barriers, the HST will expand in flesh more consistently and penetrate less than usual due to the momentum that is lost, while the Ranger bullets will expand substantially less than usual sometimes and penetrate the same or even more. Those who favor consistent expansion will love HST, while those who favor penetration will love Ranger-T and Ranger Bonded (I personally favor keeping penetration high, with large expansion just a bonus).
The relevant design difference here is probably the size of the hollow-point cavity, which in the HST is both exceptionally deep and wide, favoring consistent expansion. One of the costs, however, is reduced feeding reliability in some guns (not a common issue, but more common than it is with Ranger ammo), in addition to reduced penetration under some circumstances, as mentioned earlier. This should be enough information to get an idea of what kind of performance characteristics you prefer--note that these are only tendencies because lots of unpredictable random crap happens when bullets hit flesh and bone. The Barnes TAC-XP is also definitely worth looking into, although I'm not as familiar with it.
RevolvingGarbage
Member
I tested some PDX1 .38spl (130gr +P) in my 2" revolver. The bullets fully penetrated the 15" block of calibrated gelatin I was using, and bounced off the dirt filled box I had as a backstop. Both on bare gelatin and covered with 4 layers of shirt materiel the bullets consistently expanded to 1.5x diameter and made the classic 6 petal mushroom just as advertised on the box.
Very good ammo, works just like its supposed to, in testing anyway.
Very good ammo, works just like its supposed to, in testing anyway.
The 9mm PDX are different from Ranger bonded. The 40 and 45 are the same.
9mm Ranger Bonded used a different jacket, basically a standard gliding metal cup. The PDX uses Winchester's reverse-taper jacket borrowed from the Ranger Talon line. The 40 and 45 caliber Ranger Bonded loads used the reverse-taper jacket.
9mm Ranger Bonded used a different jacket, basically a standard gliding metal cup. The PDX uses Winchester's reverse-taper jacket borrowed from the Ranger Talon line. The 40 and 45 caliber Ranger Bonded loads used the reverse-taper jacket.
Did you clock the speed? I just chrony'd this ammo in a 4" Python and it averaged 1008 FPS.
I did not expect a 125gr .50" expanded bullet to penetrate 15" of jello.
RevolvingGarbage
Member
Nope, this was just some at home testing. Knox gelatin is no problem for me to get but a chrono is a bit spendy for me right now.
The PDX1 is actually a 130gr bullet. Not much heavier, but maybe it makes a difference.
I also tested a few of the Federal 125gr Nyclads I had left over. They made it to about 14" and expanded about as much as the PDX1, except instead of opening up and being folded back into a mushroom shape, they ended up opening up into a tuba or trumpet shape and just sailing along like that through the gelatin. These loads are standard pressure also, probably doing something like 800-830 FPS in my revolver. Very interesting.
The response above about the 9mm rounds was a little misleading.
I think what he was trying to say is the old 9mm ranger bonded was a bit different.
While the New 9mm PDX1 is the same as the .40 and .45 (while the old 9mm ranger bonded was not the same as their counterparts)
The whole PDX1 line, 9mm, .40, and .45 are roughly speaking a bonded form of the old talon design. The FBI issues the 9mm and .40 version of this..
Anyway, its whats in my gun.
I think what he was trying to say is the old 9mm ranger bonded was a bit different.
While the New 9mm PDX1 is the same as the .40 and .45 (while the old 9mm ranger bonded was not the same as their counterparts)
The whole PDX1 line, 9mm, .40, and .45 are roughly speaking a bonded form of the old talon design. The FBI issues the 9mm and .40 version of this..
Anyway, its whats in my gun.
Sheepdog1968
Member
American Rifleman did an article about the PDX1 about a year ago. My fuzzy recolection was that it was a newly designed round to meet FBI requirements.
Kingofthehill
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All of my personal tests proves to me that this ammo is a big contender in being top shelf.
This, Corbon DPX, and Speer Gold Dots have proved over and over through many types of media as the best ive tested
This, Corbon DPX, and Speer Gold Dots have proved over and over through many types of media as the best ive tested
REAPER4206969
Member
...
My understanding, which may well be incomplete, was that the FBI wanted a bonded JHP, and Winchester decided to submit a new bonded version of their latest Ranger-T design rather than Ranger Bonded, which at the time was of a different basic design. What Winchester came up with won the competition and became the new FBI load, product code Q4369, which was apparently tuned to the FBI's preferences (as the test results seem to bear out). Originally the cases were plain brass, the primers had a red sealant on them, and the ammo came in plain white boxes, apparently to reduce cost. Some additional loads were developed, and the new basic design became the civilian PDX1, which had (and has) nickel-plated cases and clear sealant. The latter features were soon applied to Q4369, making the FBI load physically identical to the 180 grain .40 S&W PDX1 load, except that it still comes in plain white boxes of 50 instead of fancy boxes of 20.
Meanwhile, Ranger Bonded was still different for a while, but it wasn't long until it was replaced by PDX1/Q4369 and the related product line, making all of them identical, as well as similar to Ranger-T, and that's where we are today with newly manufactured premium JHP ammunition from Winchester. I can't account for every variant that might still be out in the market somewhere, though.
Oh, and by the way, I'd guess that the reason PDX1 is the bonded Ranger-T rather than plain Ranger-T, even though bonded ammunition is supposedly geared more toward law enforcement, is to help avoid the old (and patently unfair) Black Talon stigma since the bonded version's talons aren't as exposed and sharp, being bonded to portions of the lead core, of course.
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RevolvingGarbage
Member
Link to my thread in the revolver section showing expanded .38spl PDX1 projectiles and data from the testing:
http://hwww.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=536527
http://hwww.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=536527
redarmy67
Member
I have run the 9mm and the .45 and love them both. I noticed that my walmart is running the 9mm at 18.95 for a box of 20 and 21.95 for a box of 20 in the .45
This is great ammo at a great price! I keep both my pistols loaded with it.
This is great ammo at a great price! I keep both my pistols loaded with it.
Graf and sons
.380 $14.99
9mm $17.99
.40 cal $20.99
its about time I find quality .380 ammo at a decent price. Cabelas had it last weekend for $15.99 a box. I bought 6 boxes while I was there. Dicks sporting goods $29.99 a box.
So far I have purchased 10 boxes from Grafs and 6 boxes from Cabelas and the first box from Dicks:banghead:
.380 $14.99
9mm $17.99
.40 cal $20.99
its about time I find quality .380 ammo at a decent price. Cabelas had it last weekend for $15.99 a box. I bought 6 boxes while I was there. Dicks sporting goods $29.99 a box.
So far I have purchased 10 boxes from Grafs and 6 boxes from Cabelas and the first box from Dicks:banghead:
PDX1 cartridges are definitely sealed. Clear does not mean invisible, and some cartridges have a little grit that got stuck to the sealant (probably a type of lacquer) around the primer when it was still wet to prove it (nice cosmetic QC there, Winchester
). It's not smeared all over the primer, just where it contacts the case. And according to a page on the Winchester website that apparently doesn't exist anymore (I know, how convenient 
), the bullets are sealed into place with asphaltum (similar to military ammo).If you want to verify how well sealed the cartridges are, then spray some of them with WD-40 or some other penetrating oil. I vaguely recall somebody performing such a test on PDX1, and the cartridges still worked afterward. Maybe I'll try doing that myself just for kicks.
Sapper771
Member
I saw Tnoutdoors9 on youtube test the 9mm 147gr PDX load. Not very scientific, but the round showed around 16" in penetration and expanded decently.
My local shop got some in and had them at a decent price so I picked up four boxes of the 147gr PDX1. I have them loaded in my spare mags for now. I was waiting til more info was available on them before I put them in full time. So far, sounds like they are getting good marks.
It prints about an inch high out of my G17 at 10 yards, but the groups are tight.
My local shop got some in and had them at a decent price so I picked up four boxes of the 147gr PDX1. I have them loaded in my spare mags for now. I was waiting til more info was available on them before I put them in full time. So far, sounds like they are getting good marks.
It prints about an inch high out of my G17 at 10 yards, but the groups are tight.
That happens to be identical to the FBI's alternative 9mm duty load for agents who prefer that caliber, by the way. They're all accurate, reliable, robustly constructed (with regard to environmental effects), low-flash loads, just like premium defensive ammo should be (they also meet or exceed their published velocity specs, which is not always true of practice ammo or even some premium product lines).
That'll happen sometimes even with the latest designs. That's why some JHPs have plastic inserts that force them to expand even when encountering hard barriers, but the obvious tradeoff is that they won't penetrate those barriers well.
usp9
Member
I just returned from the range where I shot a small box of 20 rounds of the 9mm PDX1 +P bonded in my Kahr TP9. The ammo proved to be very accurate, I neither saw nor felt any big difference between it and my favorite Hornady TAP. Small sample but I'd carry it.
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