mcb
Member
Too soon?
Windham Weaponry closing.
- Thread starter 12Bravo20
- Start date
Too soon?
Everyone that was making AR's in the early 90's survived the AWB by removing the flash hider/barrel threads and bayonet lug. They were still a bit pricey for a couple of years after the AWB ended in 2004. Yes the AR market exploded after 2004 and when Obama got elected. And when the prices for AR's went down and the prices for AK's went up, everyone switched from the AK to the AR. The Ruger Mini 14 could be had at a reasonable price through out the 80's and into the 90's. But the big batches of surplus SKS's killed that off as did the import of AK's and AK parts kits that were neutered to use single stack magazines.
We all talk about missing the days of barrels full of SKS's for under $100. And around 2005-2007 time frame you had CMMG that started having barrels of AR15's priced and $450 to $500 right as the prices of AK's started going up.
WIndham still made good products and they could have made a big profit if they could have secured a dependable source for A1, C7, and A2 upper receivers. Yes the WW A1 uppers actually used C7 upper receivers since they were easier to source compared to A1 upper receivers. Everyone was excited about Windham bring out the retro uppers. But they dropped the ball by not securing the supplies they needed. The other things that hurt the was their lack of advertising along with being middle of the road.
While I have never bought a complete Ar or complete upper from Windham, their barrels have always been good to go. And they were a good source for A2 barrels when they had them with the correct 1-7 twist in stock.
We all talk about missing the days of barrels full of SKS's for under $100. And around 2005-2007 time frame you had CMMG that started having barrels of AR15's priced and $450 to $500 right as the prices of AK's started going up.
WIndham still made good products and they could have made a big profit if they could have secured a dependable source for A1, C7, and A2 upper receivers. Yes the WW A1 uppers actually used C7 upper receivers since they were easier to source compared to A1 upper receivers. Everyone was excited about Windham bring out the retro uppers. But they dropped the ball by not securing the supplies they needed. The other things that hurt the was their lack of advertising along with being middle of the road.
While I have never bought a complete Ar or complete upper from Windham, their barrels have always been good to go. And they were a good source for A2 barrels when they had them with the correct 1-7 twist in stock.
Megawatt maker
Member
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2017
- Messages
- 699
There was nothing ever special about them. While I've never owned one, I've seen quite a few and shot a few. Again, nothing special about them. Run of the mill. Sad to see folks losing their jobs, however, with PSA basically dominating the low to middle price market, and Windham not offering anything in the top tier...it just spelled doom for them. They won't be the last either.
redneck2
Member
Back at that time I was going on a prairie dog and a friend from the LGS suggested an AR. They had a trade in, unfired Windham Bushmaster Varminter. With my hand loads it’s shot multiple sub .5 groups.
Speedo66
Member
Were they a “one trick pony” who only made AR’s?
If that’s the case, they had nothing else to fall back on when a market shift occurred.
PSA bottomed out the market, American consumers will go for the cheapest “good enough” product as seen by our love of cheap Chinese crap.
If that’s the case, they had nothing else to fall back on when a market shift occurred.
PSA bottomed out the market, American consumers will go for the cheapest “good enough” product as seen by our love of cheap Chinese crap.
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mcb
Member
DPMS is simple a trademark and logo that they slap on PSA products. There is nothing of the original or even the Remington version of DPMS that is part of JJE Capitals version of DPMS. None of the people, almost none of the machines, just some engineering data and the copyright/trademark.
Crosshair
Member
Gun owners are often just as stupid as everyone else. Spend their money on a gun, then poorly penny pinch on optics, then complain that it doesn't hold zero.
Steel Horse Rider
Member
Thankfully I bought a Bushmaster AR in the early 2000's and then a Windham after Bushmaster was purchased and Windham started. They have both been accurate and reliable weapons. I didn't know the original owner had passed away.
MarshallDodge
Member
I remember those. They shot pretty well and had a good trigger.
The one I had was built by the guys that started Rock River, about 2 or 3 years before Bushmaster introduced their version. I still have the upper but haven't shot it in a while.
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Old Dog
Member
Talking about this at length on another forum. Folks that think they know a lot about ARs can be worse than those that think they know a lot about 1911s. Too bad some take news like this to crap on a particular brand, hoping we don't see that here.
I, for one, will mourn the passing of yet another honest American gunmaker. One of my first personally-owned ARs was the Bushmaster "Patrolman Carbine," pencil-barreled with the carry handle, pretty much a version of the Colt 6720. It was exceptionally accurate and totally reliable.
My post-mil employer had several of the Bushmaster M4 clones (E2s?) in the armory for training use, and they gave us years of reliable use.
Living in the Puget Sound area, most of us followed the demise of Bushmaster after the post Beltway Sniper fallout. And many of us had spent time in the Tacoma gunshop from which Muhammed and Malvo shoplifted the infamous rifle. Windham tried hard and offered a decent product.
I, for one, will mourn the passing of yet another honest American gunmaker. One of my first personally-owned ARs was the Bushmaster "Patrolman Carbine," pencil-barreled with the carry handle, pretty much a version of the Colt 6720. It was exceptionally accurate and totally reliable.
My post-mil employer had several of the Bushmaster M4 clones (E2s?) in the armory for training use, and they gave us years of reliable use.
Living in the Puget Sound area, most of us followed the demise of Bushmaster after the post Beltway Sniper fallout. And many of us had spent time in the Tacoma gunshop from which Muhammed and Malvo shoplifted the infamous rifle. Windham tried hard and offered a decent product.
Outlaw75
Member
Windham was never going to be profitable. A lot of the reason the company existed was Richard Dyke trying to save the town of Windham, ME after Remington moved Bushmaster back to Ilion. He wouldn't do what other manufacturers have done and moved down to the Sun Belt to take advantage of lower labor costs because he was the town's largest employer. That's what's really sad, that town's going to face some real hard times.
Well, I hope you at least washed your hands afterwards!
lightman
Member
I've never done business with them but like the others I feel sad when any business in the firearms industry closes.
Old Dog
Member
Yeah, it started well, guys chiming in fondly reminiscing about their first Bushmaster, but as always on that forum, within the first page of a thread, guys come in just to crap on the brand (or even bring up how another maker, Franklin, are ****bags). Never fails, which is why I try to limit my time over there, because the hobbyists (not the guys who actually used a particular brand in real life) are such obnoxious snobs and most discussions seem to turn toxic quickly.
Glock Talk is just as bad as ARFCOM. I read both forums since you can get good information at times once you filter through all of the crud.
I always do after visiting ARFCOM or Glock Talk.
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As Windham Weaponry? Yes.
Back in the day, they also produced the M17S bullpup...
Bushmaster M17S - Wikipedia
...and used to make AR's in just about any configuration imaginable (even 24" barrels). They were a step below Colt when just about the only other options for an AR were Olympic Arms and Eagle Arms.
doubleh
Member
I never really knew anything about them. Unlike many people ARs are not high up on my rifle preference chart although I do own two, one each from a couple of the more prestigious brands. Literally everyone and their dog has gotten into assembling ARs. Even little Carlsbad, NM has one. Cavern City Arms or some like that. I have seen them at area gun show and they look nice but every other company has something just like them and usually at a better price. The market is saturated with ARs at this time and some companies aren't going to survive.
CapnMac
Member
This ^^ is the primary problem.
It's similar to trying to build up a "big" company in Wyoming. Sure, it's an great State and very 2A, but , with 575K population spread out over 98K square miles, you are going to be hard pressed to assemble a deep team of factory workers to keep a large product line moving.
Maine has taken a number of hard hits in the last two decades for both population and industry. Single-industry towns are very much "high risk" any more. You need around 9 to 12 "supporting" people for everyone in a technical or specialist capacity. And that's a wide range of people. Not just the obvious like doctors and dentist, but also all manner of goods & services. You need home builder, car dealerships, clothing stores, a plethora of things to keep any one town "alive." Which means you need a mix of industry and the like. Otherwise there's not a lot of reason to buy the diesel to ship all the goods to a one-industry town. And, if you need to go to another town for amenities, it's simpler to just move and get work in that town.
Which is a constant headache if you are the guy trying to keep that one industry alive. Whether you are making washers, or conveyor belts, or firearms.
"We," quite naturally, focus on the firearms side of things, but industries do not exist in vacuums.
This is very true.
The small town I live in use to be a thriving rural town when the fire brick plant and clothe dyeing plant were both in operation. The entire are was thriving with all of the brick plants going at one time. But the area and the town I live in has pretty much died off since all of the brick plants have closed along with the dye plant. The biggest town in the area has a population of around 15,000 people now. When there were 4 or 5 brick plants just in that city, the population was a lot bigger. Most people drive close to an hour to one of the major big cities for employment now days.
Windham's "A1 Government" seemed to be a fairly popular item in their lineup. Although it was a mixture of A1 and A2 features, people seemed to like the retro look. About a year ago, I looked one over that a local store had on the shelf. The barrel was a 1:9 twist even though this model is advertised as having a 1:7 barrel twist. I inquired with Windham about this and they replied that the 1:9 was a "special run". I'm thinking that might be code for "we used what was in stock at the time". Whatever the case, the gun looked quite nice in the fit and finish department.
www.windhamweaponry.com
A1 Government - Windham Weaponry Online. AR-15 Manufacturer
Windham Weaponry A1 Government SKU: R20GVTA1S-7 Caliber: 223 Remington/5.56 NATO Action: Semi-Automatic, Gas Impingement System Capacity: 30 + 1 - Ships with one 30 Round Magazine Safety: Manual Lever with Indicator Markings on Both Sides of Receiver Receiver: A1 Upper With Brass...
www.windhamweaponry.com
MarshallDodge
Member
$1344 is pretty speedy for something that isn't accurate. I can find original Colt SP1s for that price range.Windham's "A1 Government" seemed to be a fairly popular item in their lineup. Although it was a mixture of A1 and A2 features, people seemed to like the retro look. About a year ago, I looked one over that a local store had on the shelf. The barrel was a 1:9 twist even though this model is advertised as having a 1:7 barrel twist. I inquired with Windham about this and they replied that the 1:9 was a "special run". I'm thinking that might be code for "we used what was in stock at the time". Whatever the case, the gun looked quite nice in the fit and finish department.
A1 Government - Windham Weaponry Online. AR-15 Manufacturer
Windham Weaponry A1 Government SKU: R20GVTA1S-7 Caliber: 223 Remington/5.56 NATO Action: Semi-Automatic, Gas Impingement System Capacity: 30 + 1 - Ships with one 30 Round Magazine Safety: Manual Lever with Indicator Markings on Both Sides of Receiver Receiver: A1 Upper With Brass...
Yes Windham missed the boat when it comes to the Retro AR market. Their A1 uppers were actually made with C7 uppers that have the A1 rear sight and A2 brass deflector. And the C7 uppers are also desirable by the retro crowd.Windham's "A1 Government" seemed to be a fairly popular item in their lineup. Although it was a mixture of A1 and A2 features, people seemed to like the retro look. About a year ago, I looked one over that a local store had on the shelf. The barrel was a 1:9 twist even though this model is advertised as having a 1:7 barrel twist. I inquired with Windham about this and they replied that the 1:9 was a "special run". I'm thinking that might be code for "we used what was in stock at the time". Whatever the case, the gun looked quite nice in the fit and finish department.
A1 Government - Windham Weaponry Online. AR-15 Manufacturer
Windham Weaponry A1 Government SKU: R20GVTA1S-7 Caliber: 223 Remington/5.56 NATO Action: Semi-Automatic, Gas Impingement System Capacity: 30 + 1 - Ships with one 30 Round Magazine Safety: Manual Lever with Indicator Markings on Both Sides of Receiver Receiver: A1 Upper With Brass...
CapnMac
Member
Which is why the County my hometown was in, went from 177,000 (2011) population to 229,000 (today). And that, despite, the huge "bleed off" of population in the 2008-2012 Second Depression.
Wyndam made a very nice, "high-gloss" bit of kit. And, there were any number of valid reasons to buy one. But, selling at US$1200 in a $600 marketplace means having to deliver a large percentage "better" to the customers. You have to creata marketing reason to sell an Escalade versus a Suburban; an Expedition versus a Navigator. Firearms are hard to upgrade to have leather seats, softer ride, and similar "luxury" items.
Hard to "sell" glass-filled nylon polymer versus a cheaper thermoplastic; even tougher to make a case over "better alloys" when the AR is basically centered on a mix of alloys as is. It also did not help when you jump into an AR market with near half the market just wanting "legos" to assemble for their own reasons. And the pieces-parts market can't even agree on what the "best" legos are--opinions outnumber people.
