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Wired magazine "Secret Weapon" article

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hso

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A buddy of mine dropped a copy of Wired onto my desk at work because of an article on how technology has advanced the ease of making DIY AR lower receivers ("Ghost Guns"). There's a clear Anti bias, but it is also a remarkably objective account of what's involved. The last phrase, "And Defense Distributed has already sold more than a thousand gun-making boxes, each one a tiny, easy-to-use anarchic rifle factory.", is Defense Distributed's whole point about the absurdity of regulation of firearms in the face of evolving technology.

http://www.wired.com/2015/06/i-made-an-untraceable-ar-15-ghost-gun/
 
whole point about the absurdity of regulation of firearms in the face of evolving technology.

Victory is a sometimes a perception that becomes a reality. Defeat, well sure is too. A feeling of overwhelming futility is a potent thing - it can either cause the other side to throw in the towel early, without a fight; or it can cause them to redouble their efforts.

Also; if there's one thing I've learned during my life that is abundantly clear, never discount the government's ability to act absurd and defy all logic. :)

(My point here, in case it is missed by anyone; no matter how overwhelming the facts are or how much we assume that things can "only go down one way", we need to remain vigilant, and not get cocky or complacent. History has shown a lot of cocky gunowners getting blindsided in the past; both in this country, and in other countries.)
 
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Even with the enforcement powers of the Nazi's in the Warsaw ghetto they couldn't stop the resistance from manufacturing serviceable firearms -- but getting ammunition for them was the real problem!
 
Other than making a statement or “It’s just fun to do” can anyone explain to me the logic behind the “Ghost Gunner” machine??
If I wanted an “off the books” AR-15 I’m sure I could find one for a whole lot less than the cost of buying the machine, 80% receiver and all the other parts needed to make one. If any case, what are you going to do after the first build? Make more? If so, what are you going to do with the extras (1 or 1,000)? If you are going to sell them, or even give them away,at some point a manufacturers license is going to be required and then they are no longer “off the books”.
 
"at some point a manufacturers license is going to be required and then they are no longer “off the books”."

I'm not interested in making firearms but I think you're missing the point.
 
Other than making a statement or “It’s just fun to do” can anyone explain to me the logic behind the “Ghost Gunner” machine??
If I wanted an “off the books” AR-15 I’m sure I could find one for a whole lot less than the cost of buying the machine, 80% receiver and all the other parts needed to make one. If any case, what are you going to do after the first build? Make more? If so, what are you going to do with the extras (1 or 1,000)? If you are going to sell them, or even give them away,at some point a manufacturers license is going to be required and then they are no longer “off the books”.
Well I don't even have a magic machine, and I have 4.....no wait I just got that 80% AR-10, so 5 of them lying around. What am I going to do with them? Build them up into different configs and shoot them.

There's "off the books" as in a weapon with a serial that you bought FTF, so it would be hard to track to you, and then there's "off the books" as in it came into my house just metal and there's no marks on it. If that's your thing.

I confess I build Guns as a hobby, so I'm firmly in the "it's fun to do" camp. Not just AR's either. I did effectivly shut down my Mother-in-Law from talking about how gun laws could work when I made an unmarked, Sig braced, AR pistol while she watched, from spare parts I had lying around. Took about an hour. That alone (quiet M-I-L) was worth the cost of the lower.......and the mill.

Some folks also really want to make a statement.
 
Interesting read. I'm sure there are plenty of people that don't know that it is perfectly legal to "manufacture" your own firearm without any paperwork required. (I put manufacture in quotes because I don't consider either 80% lowers or placing a block of aluminum into a preprogrammed CNC actually manufacturing.)

I didn't see the anti-gun bias the OP mentioned. Very little of the article involves the politics of making your own gun and the author never gives an opinion on the subject.
 
Defense Distributed is making a point.

The people buying their mill are either making a point as well by doing so, taking advantage of the great price on the mill to get a CNC mill (if you've priced mills as good as this you find they're usually much more expensive), or perhaps just like tinkering.
 
From the article: "Even so, they haven’t been outlawed; buying or selling a ghost gun is illegal, but making one remains kosher under US gun control laws."

Can anyone comment on this? I'm not aware of any US law that would prevent someone from buying or selling a home built / non serial numbered firearm.
Thanks.
 
From the article: "Even so, they haven’t been outlawed; buying or selling a ghost gun is illegal, but making one remains kosher under US gun control laws."

Can anyone comment on this? I'm not aware of any US law that would prevent someone from buying or selling a home built / non serial numbered firearm.
Thanks.

If you sell a home built gun it must be marked with a serial number:
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/BATFE-AMD-65-Manufacture-Marking-2004-11-09.pdf

2nd page / 2nd paragraph
 
If you sell a home built gun it must be marked with a serial number:
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/BATFE-AMD-65-Manufacture-Marking-2004-11-09.pdf

2nd page / 2nd paragraph
Not true.

The refed law (27 CFR 478.92) only applies to licensed manufacturers or importers. It's in the first line of the law.

There is no law, that I have found, that states a firearm (non-NFA), that you made as an nonlicensee must be marked prior to sale. Indeed the ATF used to have an FAQ up that said they "suggested" it. But it's not required.

Unless someone can find a law that requires it and applies to nonlicensee's.

That said, If it came up in an investigation, I would want to be DARN sure I was no where near "engaged in a buisness".
 
Trent, thanks for the signature, I am using to quote you for now. Bout sums it up. :)
 
Not true.

The refed law (27 CFR 478.92) only applies to licensed manufacturers or importers. It's in the first line of the law.

There is no law, that I have found, that states a firearm (non-NFA), that you made as an nonlicensee must be marked prior to sale. Indeed the ATF used to have an FAQ up that said they "suggested" it. But it's not required.

Unless someone can find a law that requires it and applies to nonlicensee's.

That said, If it came up in an investigation, I would want to be DARN sure I was no where near "engaged in a buisness".

I assume this is the FAQ you are referring to:

Do I have to engrave it for personal use?

"Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future."

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html#commercial-parts-assembly
 
Wait wait wait... Are you guys telling me that for the low low price of $1.500 I can make an $800 gun at home!?!?!

What a bargin!

Wait until Wired finds out about shovels... their collective heads will explode.
 
From aft site regarding 80% lowers. Does aft use the poma method when writing this stuff?

When does a receiver need to have markings and/or serial numbers?

Receivers that meet the definition of a “firearm” must have markings, including a serial number. See 27 CFR § 478.92 (Firearm manufacturers marking requirements).

Q&A Category:
Receiver Blanks
 
But if you actually go to that CFR it only applies to licensees.

So to mark a nonlicensee manufactured firearm as required in 27 CFR 478.92 is..........not to mark it.

ATF has danced around saying this for years, but there is not currently a federal law that requires you to mark a home built, non-NFA firearm in any way, for any purpose. There IS currently one introduced in congress that would require it, but it appears to not be going anywhere. There are some state and local laws that require it, but I'm not running them all down. Federal Law does not require marking of a non-NFA firearm unless you are engaged in the business of manufacturing.
 
I saw the article when it first came out, and I was appalled by the ignorance of the writers and editors. The article was ruined because it was based on a totally erroneous assumption about gun regulation -- that all guns in the U.S. are registered and can be traced. Wow, what a bust!
 
I assume this is the FAQ you are referring to:

Do I have to engrave it for personal use?

"Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future."

Criminy sakes, this stuff never dies for some reason...

SHOULD =/= SHALL

This is the ATF we're talking about. That distinction is basically all they do for a living. Of course the ATF thinks you "should" engrave the lower; they probably think you "should" pass it through a gunsmith for 'checking out' so that it gets recorded in a bound book, somewhere .:rolleyes:

-You can make guns for your own use, provided they comply with NFA/GCA classifications (and ATF interpretations thereof ['readily convertible', 'constructive possession', 'open bolt', 'sporting purposes'] which aren't neatly posted anywhere in particular) and local laws
-You are not a manufacturer, so no marking requirements are applicable to you as the builder (you are a 'manufacturer' for the purposed of NFA Form 1 guns)
-You can rebuild destroyed foreign and machinegun parts, provided the above as well as 922r as applicable (and again, ATF interpretations thereof ['once a machinegun always a machinegun', 'modified but used for the same mechanical purpose is still a foreign-made part', etc.])
-You can sell, give away, loan, or otherwise transfer your homebrew same as any other, in accordance with NFA/local laws
-Some sellers won't let you transfer through them, out of hostile ignorance, or a desire to not have NVSN (no visible serial number) on their books
-Most torch-cut destroyed receivers can be rewelded without safety implications
-If you reweld a destroyed receiver, any intact original serial number cannot at that time be defaced (even if you have added an auxiliary number or replacement)
-A receiver cannot be destroyed with the intent of remaking it as another class of firearm; it is considered 'live' so long as the desire to reactivate remains (and yes, this is quite unprovable to any standard in court, but it's the ATF's 'reasoning')
-Drill-demilled barrels can be repaired with threaded/welded plugs and used safely (though usually not very accurately)
-Even if you build them, you may not legally repair or service your own silencer if it requires replacing parts; a new Form 1 is required for new baffles, caps, or tubes (so it is easier to destroy/replace the entire thing than have multiple legal suppressors tied together)

TCB
 
"From aft site regarding 80% lowers. Does aft use the poma method* when writing this stuff?"

The ATF consistently refuses to elaborate on any of their opinions in ways that restrict the scope of their (self-assumed, but undelegated) power.

Q: Can I build a gun?
A: All licensed manufacturers must abide by NFA regulations blah-blah-blah...
Q: Must I be licensed?
A: Anyone engaged in the business of making firearms must be licensed blah-blah-blah...
Q: Am I engaged in the business of making firearms?
A: Anyone engaged in the business of making firearms must be licensed blah-blah-blah...
Q: I made two firearms for personal use this year, am I in business?
A: Anyone engaged in the business of making firearms must be licensed blah-blah-blah...
Q: Why won't you answer my question?
A: Your question has already been answered.
Q: Then why am I still confused?
A: You require more clarification.
Q: Is there anything gun-related I can do that you'd say is legal?
A: The ATF is charged with enforcing regulations in accordance with the provision of the '34 National Firearms Act, Gun Control Act of '68, and subsequent modifications of the Firearm Owners Protection Act of '86. What, going already? Be sure to answer the guest book on the way out.

TCB

*Que es eso?
 
I think a lot of people who make ARs with Ghost Gunner or by finishing 80% lowers are going to be very surprised when the Feds raid those companies and come a looking for everyone who bought their goodies.

Did you pay with a credit card? Did you send a money order and have it shipped to your own address? And you really think you're "off the books"?

I'd wager the NSA already has you in a data base.
 
placing a block of aluminum into a preprogrammed CNC actually manufacturing.

this comment makes CNC sound like a magic talisman.

You still need to do several set ups to cut anything remotely complex on a CNC.

I've been programming for CNC wood working machines for years and after studying the CNC gunsmithing tutorials and videos, I'm still intimidated to try cutting a AR lower on a CNC. You can sink a lot of hours into that type of work, and have it all flushed on the last step of the last program in the last set-up.
 
this comment makes CNC sound like a magic talisman.

You still need to do several set ups to cut anything remotely complex on a CNC.

I've been programming for CNC wood working machines for years and after studying the CNC gunsmithing tutorials and videos, I'm still intimidated to try cutting a AR lower on a CNC. You can sink a lot of hours into that type of work, and have it all flushed on the last step of the last program in the last set-up.

I've been an engineer in manufacturing plants for 15 years. I'm well aware that CNC machines are not a magic talisman. With a CNC the work is in developing the program and fixturing required to manufacture the part. In the manufacturing environment, CNC machines allow a relatively unskilled worker to make highly complex parts.

The Ghost Gunner is not a standard CNC mill. It is a CNC delivered with the fixtures and programs to manufacture an AR-15 lower from a block of aluminum. It is specifically designed to allow someone with zero manufacturing skills to make a finished lower. In skilled hands it could be much more.

The Ghost Gunner is the equivalent of a microwave lasagna. Popping a frozen lasagna into the microwave doesn't make you a chef. Likewise, making a AR-15 lower with the Ghost Gunner didn't make the author of the WIRED article a machinist. In both cases the real work was done offsite.
 
I, too build guns as a hobby. I have a flat steel kit welded into an AR lower. Just need a FCG and it's ready to go.

I also design and build gun from scratch, and while most of them do not work, or work very well, the point is in the act. It's a mental exercise that happens to coincide with a few of my hobbies.

My only successful build is a convertible 12 gauge/ .38 special single shot long gun.

Working on a semi auto build feeding 9mm from Uzi mags.

It's a challenge, like rebuilding an engine in a hot rod or building a chopper or rat rod or ultralight. I like the challenge.
 
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