Wired magazine "Secret Weapon" article

[chicharrones]

The Ghost Gunner is not a standard CNC mill. It is a CNC delivered with the fixtures and programs to manufacture an AR-15 lower from a block of aluminum. It is specifically designed to allow someone with zero manufacturing skills to make a finished lower. In skilled hands it could be much more.

Did Ghost Gunner have a model that cut a hunk of aluminum from scratch? All I saw on the Ghost Gunner site was referencing using 80% lowers.

Making an AR lower from scratch is interesting. Buying a $1500 Ghost Gunner to finish 80% lowers is much less interesting.

 

[Tirod]

The price of the machine has nothing to do with what someone is willing to pay.

Some people buy engraved Belgian Brownings, throw them in the bottom of a boat, take them out to the duck blind, leave them sitting in the corner in the muck while rain drifts over the finish, grab them with wet gloves and blast away - to put them soiled right back in their lap for hours longer.

Others would take a marine grade pump and then spend hours dismantling it to scrub and oil every surface.

The price of the machine has nothing to do with what you or I are willing to pay for it - plenty of people bought them and they sold out. They have disposable income - same kind of guys who buy HK P7's for $1,200 each. Me, I won't pay for a Walther PPC, too expensive.

Machining an 80% is just the latest antigun campaign, what will be really interesting is the subject NO ONE has brought up yet - that the .Gov considers the programming their exclusive proprietary property due to National Security logic and that ITAR will forbid the use of the CNC programs to use them. Very few posted comments that it was a huge IP grab of data and it remains to be seen how far they will go.

Basically the Administration is making the drawings, programs, and intellectual data, such as math, a national secret to be banned from release - and that includes the internet. And we are being told in that same misdirected method that reveals nothing what will happen. Even being asked point blank with cameras rolling the entire issue is being evaded. So, we will likely see the new regulations passed - to find out what is in them.

Been there done that, it's not governance by OUR representatives - they bundled the authority off to the ATF and we have no say until they intervene. The history of regulation shows that this won't get better, ie the 1934 NFA, which had as its core tenet outlawing handguns completely. It just got struck out of the language at the last minute.

While we sip our coffee and read web pages, we are not considering how many less will be up and running in the long run. Steve's Pages, which were hosted with proprietary owner's manuals, has been down due to the sponsor passing away, and an effort is being made to get them back up. It may prove to be short lived if the ATF invokes ITAR to shut them down.

It may even be a subject we can't discuss here - forum administrators can, have, and will ban subjects from conversation to avoid legal liabilities. One current example is posting pics of the SIG Brace attached to an AR pistol and being held against the shoulder - arfcom routinely takes them down with an admonition that it's "criminal activity."

If you can't afford an Ghost Gunner machine, ok, the point is others can and they are legal. What the .Gov wants to do is make them and 80% lower illegal. They already tried to make M855 ammo illegal - which was postponed only. I'm sure traditional firearms shooters weren't discomforted by that much, but it goes to how the ATF is taking incremental steps to create an environment in our country where the average citizen can't own firearms.

It can and is happening elsewhere, read up on the latest unilateral moves by the Australian PM to ban specific firearms absent any purview by their representatives.

No, most of this won't happen next week. But then, we used to be able to pin shoulder stocks on pistols at the shortest length. Now, no stock at all and a brace is illegal held to the shoulder. All we lack is an arrest - but the reality is that range officers and public busybodies are already enforcing the ATF's thought FOR FREE harassing shooters using their guns LEGALLY.

We have met the enemy and he is us.

 

[JSH1]

Did Ghost Gunner have a model that cut a hunk of aluminum from scratch? All I saw on the Ghost Gunner site was referencing using 80% lowers.

Making an AR lower from scratch is interesting. Buying a $1500 Ghost Gunner to finish 80% lowers is much less interesting.

It appears that the Ghost Gunner only finishes 80% lowers. I was thrown off by the very poor finish on the lower in the main picture and the following statement from the article:

"All I needed for my entirely legal DIY gunsmithing project was about six hours, a 12-year-old’s understanding of computer software, an $80 chunk of aluminum, and a nearly featureless black 1-cubic-foot desktop milling machine called the Ghost Gunner."​

That makes the Ghost Gunner even less impressive and (in my opinion) completely pointless.

 

[deadin]

OK, according to some of the responders I can buy a Ghost Gunner, throw a 80% blank into it and turn out an unmarked receiver. Then I can add all of the other parts to make a functioning gun and sell it to whomsoever I please (as long as they aren't a restricted person.) (Still unmarked, because I'm not a licensed manufacturer and there's no law that says I have to mark it in any way.) I may not even break even on the sale, especially factoring in the cost of the machine, but I had so much fun being a "gunsmith" I want to do another one. As long as I can keep breaking even by selling my product to finance the next one, (and maybe a little extra to cover the cost of the machine) I should be legal because I'm just a hobbyist and not a manufacturer.

I'm pretty sure that at some point in the above scenario I will be standing in front of a judge trying to explain the difference between an unlicensed manufacturer and a guy who enjoys building and selling firearms........
Where that point is, I don't know. One or two guns? a dozen? I just don't want to be the one to find out.

 

[JSH1]

I'm pretty sure that at some point in the above scenario I will be standing in front of a judge trying to explain the difference between an unlicensed manufacturer and a guy who enjoys building and selling firearms........
Where that point is, I don't know. One or two guns? a dozen? I just don't want to be the one to find out.

Very true. I don't want to be the guy that finds out what the ATF means when they say: "the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future." Does should mean it would be a nice idea or it is a legal requirement? I'm sure I could find out after spending tens of thousands on legal fees.

The 80% market is full of people trying to push the envelope only to find out that the ATF doesn't read the law the same way that they do. No thanks, I'll leave that fun to someone else.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I think a lot of people who make ARs with Ghost Gunner or by finishing 80% lowers are going to be very surprised when the Feds raid those companies and come a looking for everyone who bought their goodies.

Did you pay with a credit card? Did you send a money order and have it shipped to your own address? And you really think you're "off the books"?

I'd wager the NSA already has you in a data base.

If you had any electronic or voice communication with that company the NSA has a record of it. Whether or not they have sifted thru it with a query to ID all those records is unknown, but all it takes is a request from the FBI and they have it. About the only way to fly under the radar is walk in and buy one with cash and not give the company any personal info when you do.

Anything you communicate using email can be recovered. Phone records don't have the content but they have the meta data that can ID you.

As barnbwt says, this is more about digital data than hardware. Mainly the digital data that associates you with a product or individual. You can throw a gun or a CNC mill in the bay but you can't get rid of the communications. I know a guy who traveled with DOJ agents when they raided businesses for digital data to be used as evidence. His job was to secure the digital records. He worked as DOD intel analyst for a long time.

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

Cool!

 

[HankB]

The OP mentioned that Ghost Gunner has already sold over 1000 machines . . .

Any idea of how many working machines have actually been delivered?

Hope it's not a machine tool version of the Bren Ten . . .

 

[deadin]

Legality aside, having an unmarked lower should allow one to switch the uppers back and forth between rifle and pistol. (Circumventing the "once a rifle, always a rifle" rule.) There would be no way to trace just what, if anything, it was deemed to be upon manufacture.

 

[dogmush]

OK, according to some of the responders I can buy a Ghost Gunner, throw a 80% blank into it and turn out an unmarked receiver. Then I can add all of the other parts to make a functioning gun and sell it to whomsoever I please (as long as they aren't a restricted person.) (Still unmarked, because I'm not a licensed manufacturer and there's no law that says I have to mark it in any way.) I may not even break even on the sale, especially factoring in the cost of the machine, but I had so much fun being a "gunsmith" I want to do another one. As long as I can keep breaking even by selling my product to finance the next one, (and maybe a little extra to cover the cost of the machine) I should be legal because I'm just a hobbyist and not a manufacturer.

I'm pretty sure that at some point in the above scenario I will be standing in front of a judge trying to explain the difference between an unlicensed manufacturer and a guy who enjoys building and selling firearms........
Where that point is, I don't know. One or two guns? a dozen? I just don't want to be the one to find out.

Well, that's not exactly saafe. The ATF has said that "engaged in the buisness" doesn't need to have profit. After all legitimate buisnesses show losses and go bankrupt all the time.

THey have the definition on their site, but it has to do with how much time you spend making guns. and it's a fuzzy definition.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Legality aside, having an unmarked lower should allow one to switch the uppers back and forth between rifle and pistol. (Circumventing the "once a rifle, always a rifle" rule.) There would be no way to trace just what, if anything, it was deemed to be upon manufacture.

The rule is "First a rifle, always a rifle."

And it's still virtually impossible to prove unless you purchase an AR that was a rifle when it left the manufacturer. Their records would show what it was upon manufacture, either rifle, pistol or other.

My lowers were all transferred as "firearms" because they were either stripped receivers, or complete lowers with no installed upper. The fact that it had a stock attached is irrelevant, because it wasn't a rifle until I put the rifle/ carbine upper on top of in an pushed in the capture pins. There is no record of when I did this, or if I removed the stock and installed a pistol upper on it first.

Complete factory lowers, stripped lowers and home manufactured lowers can't be traced under the "first a rifle, always a rifle" clause.

You're still innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, and the burden of proof is still on the government.

 

[barnbwt]

It used to be "once a rifle always a rifle" until the Supreme Court found in favor of Thompson Center

 

[Sam1911]

It used to be "once a rifle always a rifle" until the Supreme Court found in favor of Thompson Center

Technically, it was "once a rifle, always a rifle" until NINETEEN years after the Thompson case was decided.

US. v. Thomspon was decided 6/8/92, and ATF rule 2011-4 was issued 7/25/11. So it took them "a little while" to get with the program.

 

[deadin]

You're still innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, and the burden of proof is still on the government.

And the cost of your defense is still on you........

 

[HoosierQ]

There's an old saying, attributed to Albert Einstein I believe: "I don't know what weapons will be used in WWIII. But in in WWIV the weapons used will be sticks and stones." or something to that effect.

Swapping out global apocalypse for draconian gun control and we have something along the lines of "When 'real' (or choose your word here in place of 'real') guns are banned, people will shoot it out with Brens". You could make a Bren with an electric drill, a pipe wrench and a welder. Wouldn't need to even bother rifling the barrel.

 

[Kingcreek]

Nicolov Tesla supposedly invented a "death ray" years ago.
Kinda makes homemade AR lowers kind of obsolete don't it?

 

[ChaoSS]

OK, according to some of the responders I can buy a Ghost Gunner, throw a 80% blank into it and turn out an unmarked receiver. Then I can add all of the other parts to make a functioning gun and sell it to whomsoever I please (as long as they aren't a restricted person.) (Still unmarked, because I'm not a licensed manufacturer and there's no law that says I have to mark it in any way.) I may not even break even on the sale, especially factoring in the cost of the machine, but I had so much fun being a "gunsmith" I want to do another one. As long as I can keep breaking even by selling my product to finance the next one, (and maybe a little extra to cover the cost of the machine) I should be legal because I'm just a hobbyist and not a manufacturer.

I'm pretty sure that at some point in the above scenario I will be standing in front of a judge trying to explain the difference between an unlicensed manufacturer and a guy who enjoys building and selling firearms........
Where that point is, I don't know. One or two guns? a dozen? I just don't want to be the one to find out.

Not so much, if you are making guns to sell them or give them away, you are acting as a manufacturer, even if you aren't making a profit. You aren't making them for personal use.

It may be hard to prove these things one way or the other, but the distinction is there.


These things are especially valuable for people who live in states like CA, where registration issues and the laws regarding things like AR pistols make home built firearms important to many people.

 

[barnbwt]

"Technically, it was "once a rifle, always a rifle" until NINETEEN years after the Thompson case was decided."

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten that the ATF openly defied the Supreme Court for nearly twenty years. When I got into building in '12, there were still a bunch of folks who were convinced you had to add features to a gun that would prevent a factory-made short barrel from fitting without modification.* How they were not subsequently held in contempt for brazenly claiming that a freaking Supreme Court case precedent applied only to the one particular firearm model in question is a mystery to me.

"Nicolov Tesla supposedly invented a "death ray" years ago.
Kinda makes homemade AR lowers kind of obsolete don't it?"
IIRC, he leveled his lab on at least a handful of occasions with similar hair-brained stunts.

"You could make a Bren with an electric drill, a pipe wrench and a welder."
BESA > BREN > STEN
The BREN is a gas-operated light machinegun in 303, based on a finely-crafted Czech design. The BESA is a gas operated belt fed in 8mm, based on a finely-crafted Czech design. The STEN is a simplified version of the MP28 Schmeisser (which the Lanchester was an unlicensed clone of) of German origin. As you can see, the Brits can't make any weapons without someone else's ideas neener, let alone with a drill, wrench, and welder.

Seriously, the STEN receiver tube can be repaired this way, since it is simply a round extrusion with stuff attached to it, but there are still barrels, trigger groups, the bolt, and of course the magazine, none of which are particularly simple for hand tools to craft. It's still about the simplest design there is, but it is still a machine.

TCB

*think about that for a second; people had to take precautions so their rifles/shotguns would not be considered 'readily convertible' to SBR/SBS configuration...when hacksaws have already been invented

 

[USAF_Vet]

There's an old saying, attributed to Albert Einstein I believe: "I don't know what weapons will be used in WWIII. But in in WWIV the weapons used will be sticks and stones." or something to that effect.

See my sig line.

Swapping out global apocalypse for draconian gun control and we have something along the lines of "When 'real' (or choose your word here in place of 'real') guns are banned, people will shoot it out with Brens". You could make a Bren with an electric drill, a pipe wrench and a welder. Wouldn't need to even bother rifling the barrel.

You can make a Four Winds shotgun with two pieces of pipe, a cap, and a nail. The only tool required is a drill. Probably the simplest weapon there is using modern ammunition.