"Without hand fighting skills, you are just a walking holster"

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fastbolt said:
I remember the dojo's at the end of the 60's and into the 70's. Lots of "belt mills". Traditional or "mysterious" styles. Introductory "self defense lessons" for the first 30-90 days, etc. You could choose among places that turned out dancers/stylists, or sport fighters (before the days of safety equipment beginning to mean something other than a cup), or fighters. A real hodge podge.
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I don't think much has changed, other than that it is easier to find more reality based training now.
 
My dad was an mp for 15 years. His last duty station was was Lackland Air Force base as an instructor and in the summer time I got to go to work with him. So I learned some Akedo, pressure points, pat downs, and hand cuffing when I was way young. Along with that came the responsibility speech. He drilled the fact that I am responsible for my own safety so be aware of my surroundings. Plus I had access to his entire library of books on self defense, case studies of both civilian and officer involved shootings, and one of my all time favorites The book on handgun stopping power. My dad did his best to ensure his boys respected the law and had the capability to protect not only our selves but those who were not able to.

If you are going to carry a firearm to defend your self and love ones it is also your responsibility to learn the other things that go with it.
 
Howland937 said:
Which is also a terrible way to defend against multiple attackers, but a fantastic way to get clubbed in the head by someone you're not engaged with.
Not sure how training works with the MMA stuff nowadays, but for someone who's training, I'd like to know:
Do they train you to stop when someone taps, or with a whistle? Do they instruct to just apply the force needed to make the opponent quit? Only asking because I've never seen a fight on the street end with a tap-out.
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Yes, there is inherent risk in ground fighting, and what you described is one of them. There is also 1 constant that can't be mitigated- GRAVITY. A fighter on the street may end up on the ground before he/she even realizes that there is a fight in progress, and yes, there may be multiple attackers at any time. The only option is to use whatever tools are available in your tool box. It is infinitely difficult to engage more than 1 attacker, regardless of if the single fighter is standing up or on the ground- which is where he/she will likely end up sooner or later. At that point, the defender is just doing his/her best and probably hoping to make a good account in a situation that will most likely end bad. It is what it is.
As far as the sport of MMA - besides the rules which apply, there are several ways to get a "win": 1- knockout 2- tapout (initiated by a fighter when a choke or submission is experienced) 3- stoppage (the corner/coach, referee, med personnel, or opponent indicates he/she is "done"). In an actual FIGHT, each fighter is doing whatever he/she needs to do to crush his/her opponent (within the rules). In any situation where it is "time to stop", it is the ref's duty to physically restrain the victor from inflicting further damage on the loser- this includes physically pulling the victor away from the defeated opponent, protecting the defeated with his own body, etc. Once MMA fighters "get in the zone", it can be difficult to "get the genie back in the bottle", and the fighters have no responsibility to stop until the ref intervenes in some way. Think of 2 pit bulls fighting. Unlike boxing, a MMA fight doesn't end when someone is on the floor. In TRAINING, it isn't practical or possible to go this hard most of the time, and it is also counterproductive in most cases. For one thing, fighters would be way too damaged to continue to compete, and no one wants to hurt their training partners. It would also be impossible to develop and improve fighters who are constantly being injured. So I'm not trying to get a knockout with my partner in the gym. If I can hit or kick you with reduced power, I can certainly hit or kick you at full power. Full force is reserved for pads, bags, etc. And when I am applying a choke, armbar, etc. in training, I am looking for the "tap" so I can stop hurting you and we can reset.
How does all of this apply on the street? Simply put, SOMEONE is probably going to get hurt really bad, or worse.
 
FL-NC said:
and no one wants to hurt their training partners.
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Good post....except for this part, which I know from experience isn't always true. Some guys are far more interested in "winning" in training than they are in avoiding injury to their partner. Some guys just can't leave their ego at the door. Which is how I know I can fight through ligament injuries. And also how long they take to heal.
 
WrongHanded said:
Good post....except for this part, which I know from experience isn't always true. Some guys are far more interested in "winning" in training than they are in avoiding injury to their partner. Some guys just can't leave their ego at the door. Which is how I know I can fight through ligament injuries. And also how long they take to heal.
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Yep, sometimes there is "that guy". MOST of the time, "that guy" is relatively inexperienced, nervous, and incapable of "dialing back". So they will "amp up", especially against a superior/more experienced partner. In MMA, this is mostly an issue that comes up in stand up/striking. The golden rule is to not hit your partner in training harder than you want to get hit back, so with coaching and "payback", these issues tend to be self-correcting in a good gym. There are also those who are "gym bullies" and will go harder than necessary on less skilled training partners. This does absolutely nothing to help the less experienced fighter, and undermines the instructor and the reputation of the school. When students like this don't heed the directions to pump the brakes, a good instructor will either have "that guy" train for a bit with a much more superior fighter (enforcer) or tell "that guy" to find another fight club or back yard to train in. Either way, gym bullies won't last long in a good school. I sent one packing myself about a year ago.
 
Fine when I was younger. Took classes on practical H2H SD emphasizing escape after the first encounter. In my early youth, I did some sport judo. It was fun. In my sixties, I took a class and got hurt. Off to the urgent care. Had to wear some gadget on my hand and wrist, go to physical therapy, blah, blah. Wife would clobber me if I tried that again, given I didn't drop dead from my current state.
 
FL-NC said:
How did it go?
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Well I didn't die. It was 3+ hours of physical activity in total, so no big deal.

Bjj is fun and I'm definitely better at it than mauy thai. I think this is because of a little bit of wrestling experience.

The techniques I was trying to learn were pretty technical but fun. For mauy thai, I worked the bag the whole time. Learned about hooks, knees, kicks, punch, elbow, movement and combos. I have me some sensitive shins, turns out.
The strikes are very technical in nature and balance, distance are all things I need to get much more familiar with.

I actually did pretty good when it came time to"roll" in BJJ. My only problem was that I didn't know anything about my goals or what I was trying to do, but I did good job keeping my opponent from doing what he wanted to do.

In wrestling you try to get him on his back, in BJJ, that's precisely where he wants to be.


I'll be going back.

The plan for me, at this time, is to pursue the jiujitsu and kick the bag afterward to build up my shins a bit.

Not a whole lot of point to mauy thai if you have sissy shins, and i certainly have sissy shins LOL
 
Corpral_Agarn said:
Not a whole lot of point to mauy thai if you have sissy shins, and i certainly have sissy shins LOL
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There are ways to fix that. Some of those ways might results in having shins that are black and blue from kneecap to ankle, or having scabs running that full length. Those ways aren't fun, but they do work.
 
Old Dog said:
I've heard this before from the self-righteous martial artists who aren't into firearms. It's an elitist attitude that is fairly common.

While gun retention skills are something that everyone who regularly carries a gun should get quality instruction on and routinely practice, there is an attitude prevalent among some martial arts practitioners toward those who only carry firearms. Almost funny, in my community, some of our defensive tactics instructors look down on those who only instruct firearms.

Upon further review, any instructor whose sales pitch includes trying to make you feel inadequate probably isn't worth the fees he's charging for his classes.
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Some of us only ever first thought of carrying a gun when we became disabled. I have trouble just sitting upright; not much strength left over for pawing jabs or getting underhooks or whatever.

If my firearms instructor told me that I needed to train kung fu or else be considered a fool, I’d ask for a refund. I’ll get my “jitz” watching Submission Underground, and leave fighting to the pros.
 
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Corpral_Agarn said:
Had an interesting phone conversation with a local combat sports gym.

I am interested in learning things like no gi Jiu-Jitsu and Mauy Thai so I called and asked about pricing/schedule etc.

Anyway the guy asked me what I was looking to get out of it and I mentioned that I am a firearms instructor and wanted to bridge the gap in my hands on skills for self defense and general fitness purposes.

He tells me, "well, without fighting skills, you are just a walking holster, right? You need to learn how to retain that gun."

I let the comment go, but it rubbed me the wrong way. I don't think this guy knows much about the kind of shooting people interested in self defense are engaged in.

Is this a common attitude in the combat sports?

Either way I go to check it out on Monday.
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Good question. In my area just a few miles from our home, at 3:00 in the afternoon on a major street, a woman was pulled from her Audi Q5, beaten, and had her purse, cellphone, and car stolen. When interviewed she explained she had pepper spray and extensive training in the martial arts none of which was valuable because of the suddenness of the attack by four urban youths aged 13-15.

The best defense is awareness giving yourself time to react.
Extra mags may also be a good thought.
 
WrongHanded said:
There are ways to fix that. Some of those ways might results in having shins that are black and blue from kneecap to ankle, or having scabs running that full length. Those ways aren't fun, but they do work.
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I'm in no hurry, just something I want to address.

Watching the instructor kick a bag... that's some power that would be good to tap into if need be
 
I don't know about the shins. I trained with an instructor who'd fought as a pro in Thailand, and he said blocking kicks never stopped hurting but that you just kind of got used to it. I never fought without shin guards so couldn't really say, myself.
 
oh, just a side note.

I ran into the guy I talked to on the phone. He's not an instructor.

He strikes me as someone fairly new (year or two maybe?) he's in his early 20's I think. Some of the comments he made makes me think that this sport is the entirety of his identity. He was "afraid to speak up and confront people" before he discovered the sport.


We get to talking and he wanted to know how long it took for someone to deploy a firearm.

I told him we shoot for under 2 seconds from a concealed position. sometimes a little slower, sometimes a little faster.

"2 seconds? That's really fast."
I shrugged.
"some shooters are getting a round on target in under 1"

He seemed to ease up on the attitude a bit in person.
 
I do recall there being a mindset that the instructor/sifu/Sensei was held in reverence, and that only the teachings of that person were worth learning. Could be an impressionable young man parroting something he'd heard in class. Doubt he made it up himself (no offense to our younger audience). That he was impressed with the idea of a gun drawn from concealment could be deployed in 2 seconds or so is a good sign. Most of the guys I trained with woulda replied "I can deliver a lot of hurt in a lot less time"
I never stayed in it long enough to get the brainwashing :thumbup:
 
FL-NC said:
If I can hit or kick you with reduced power, I can certainly hit or kick you at full power. Full force is reserved for pads, bags, etc. And when I am applying a choke, armbar, etc. in training, I am looking for the "tap" so I can stop hurting you and we can reset.
How does all of this apply on the street? Simply put, SOMEONE is probably going to get hurt really bad, or worse.
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In point of fact, depending upon the skill level of the actor, some martial arts moves, including striking, kicking, throwing, chokes, compressing or squeezing, and others, may well be considered deadly force.

In that vein, they are not a substitute fo a firearm or a blade--or for pepper spray, for that matter.

My walking stick? I have to remember to exercise a lot of judgement and restraint if I ever have to use it defensively. I am programmed to do that. The fact that it does not have a sharp edge and does not launch projectiles does not mean that its use will not be considered deadly force.
 
Kleanbore said:
In point of fact, depending upon the skill level of the actor, some martial arts moves, including striking, kicking, throwing, chokes, compressing or squeezing, and others, may well be considered deadly force.

In that vein, they are not a substitute fo a firearm or a blade--or for pepper spray, for that matter.

My walking stick? I have to remember to exercise a lot of judgement and restraint if I ever have to use it defensively. I am programmed to do that. The fact that it does not have a sharp edge and does not launch projectiles does not mean that its use will not be considered deadly force.
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Yep. Fighting- any kind of fighting- is serious business that can result in permanent repercussions of some type or another. As a totally and permanently disabled individual (I have paperwork from the federal government that states this) who is over 1/2 a century old who stands only 5'6", and doesn't even weigh 170, and with no standing in the martial arts world, I'll take my chances and keep my lawyer on speed dial.
 
Perhaps off course, but I've pondered whether someone with any degree of martial arts training would face a higher level of scrutiny in the event they defended themself with a firearm. Especially if they were attacked with something less than a firearm.
I took a pretty severe beating several years ago, when I was at my best. 3 on 1 can tend to go that way, especially when you didn't see the other 2 coming. I pretty much lost interest in going toe to toe with anyone after that.
 
Howland937 said:
Perhaps off course, but I've pondered whether someone with any degree of martial arts training would face a higher level of scrutiny in the event they defended themself with a firearm. Especially if they were attacked with something less than a firearm.
I took a pretty severe beating several years ago, when I was at my best. 3 on 1 can tend to go that way, especially when you didn't see the other 2 coming. I pretty much lost interest in going toe to toe with anyone after that.
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IDK about the extra scrutiny. As you mentioned things can go south pretty fast.

as someone who is... economy sized... I have no interest in going toe to toe with anyone either.

But we don't always get to pick, thus the training.

bonus is getting in better shape and being part of (contributing to some day) another community.
 
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