Would a .44 mag travel 300 yards and kill?

[Spyvie]

The debate raging in Denver today is whether or not a .44 magnum would travel 300 yards with enough remaining energy to pass through an exterior wall then kill 2 people.

Personally, (though I'm no expert) I think it could, but I don't think it did. There doesn't seem to be any mention of a recovered slug.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_7876300

Experts: Pistol doesn't fit crime
Firearms specialists doubt that a .44 Magnum bullet fired from 300 yards away could have killed two people on New Year's, raising some questions.
By Kirk Mitchell
The Denver Post
Article Last Updated: 01/04/2008 01:28:01 AM MST


Pedro Cortez, left, claims he fired a .44 Magnum pistol at a streetlight. But an expert says it would take a high-powered rifle bullet to go through a wall and kill Rebecca Yanez, 47, and Angelica Martinez, 11, from 300 yards away. Gun experts say it's highly unlikely that the gun a murder suspect claims he fired early New Year's Day was powerful enough to send a bullet through a wall and kill an 11-year-old girl and a woman from up to 300 yards away.

"I haven't seen a bullet from .44 Magnum (handgun) travel that far and do that kind of damage," said Ronald R. Scott, a Phoenix ballistics expert who has testified in more than 250 state and federal trials, including several in Denver. "It just doesn't fit."

Scott said that it could mean murder suspect Pedro Cortez, 25, used a different gun, wasn't standing where he claims he was, or that someone else fired the shot.

Cortez told police he fired a .44 Magnum handgun at a streetlight early Tuesday, according

But police have not identified this gun as the murder weapon.
"We're not saying what gun we believe was used," said Sonny Jackson, Denver police spokesman. "We're not releasing what we believe the gun was."

Denver Police Chief Gerry Whitman originally said Tuesday morning that police were searching for someone who fired a high-powered rifle — possibly to celebrate the new year — and accidentally struck the house.

On Thursday, the Denver district attorney's office requested a two-day extension to file formal charges against Cortez, said Lynn Kimbrough, office spokeswoman.

 

[fletcher]

"I haven't seen a bullet from .44 Magnum (handgun) travel that far and do that kind of damage,"

Doesn't mean it can't, but then again it doesn't seem likely that it would travel 300 yards, go through the wall, go through someone's head, then go into a second person (also resulting in death).

 

[ArmedBear]

Uh, can Denver's forensics guys not tell the difference between a .44 pistol bullet and something like a .30-06?

 

[Spyvie]

How much of the projectile would be intact after taking this path?

 

[zxcvbob]

It might if it was loaded with a 300 grain cast bullet. (what was that exterior wall made of?)

 

[junyo]

...what was that exterior wall made of?

Important point. Some exterior walls would slow down or stop any bullet, some are barely a hindrance.

And Buffalobore makes a load that'll get a 340 grain bullet up to 1,400 fps and close to 1,500 ft/lbs @ muzzle. No matter how quickly that round's shedding velocity, I wouldn't want to be in the path of it at 300 yards.

 

[Darkness]

There is an old S&W ad, that I happen to use as my current desktop image, which introduces their new .357 Magnum revolver. One of the picture captions states:
"Coupled with tremendous speed and power, this amazing gun is capable of less than one inch diameter machine rest groups at 20 yards. And at 100, 200, 500 yards and even beyond, the inherent power and accuracy still exist."

That's at "1510 foot-seconds muzzle velocity." I don't think it unreasonable to expect similar performance from a .44 mag.

 

[scbair]

U.S. military once published a report to the effect that a 00 buck pellet from a shotgn possesses sufficient energy to inflict a serious or fatal wound to an unprotected human at (as I recall) 600 yards. I have NO doubt a .44 magnum could pass through a vinyl sided exterior wall, then through a person, and potentially into/through a second person at 300 yards. Unless it hit a stud in the wall, most modern vinyl-sided dwellings would barely slow a bullet . . .

Possible? Oh, yeah!

 

[Mal H]

Would a .44 mag travel 300 yards and kill?

Absolutely, and we had proof of it in Fairfax County, VA around 10 years ago. Some idiot was trying to kill a bird in a tree in his backyard with a .44 magnum revolver. The bullet went a great deal further than 300 yards (note that he had the gun pointed up a high angle) and killed a man sitting at his desk in an office building (talk about bad luck). The .44 bullet went through a thick glass window. Whether an exterior wall would be different depends entirely on the wall construction.

I haven't seen a bullet from .44 Magnum (handgun) travel that far and do that kind of damage ...

Yeah, so? I haven't seen a T-Rex pursue a Stegosaur, but I have faith it did some damage. IOW, just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Allow me to point out that one of Elmer Kieth's most famous feats was killing a mule deer with a .44 Magnum at 600 yards -- in front of witnesses, who measured the distance later.

 

[bogie]

I have no doubt it'd make it through the front room of my house. Especially if FMJ or a "lower end" hollowpoint. I would NOT want to be in that room at the time.

Simple enough to prove for a court - Build a section of wall, stick a coupla melons on the other side, and find someone who can shoot a .44 at 300 yards.

 

[bogie]

Hey, at least the stegosaur had a thagomizer...

 

[USAFNoDAk]

Maybe he fired the .44 magnum from a rifle, such as a Marlin. I'm no expert, nor did I stay at a Holiday in Express last night. However, wouldn't a .44 magnum round fired out of a lever action rifle have more velocity at muzzle than it would coming out of a pistol? Since more of the powder has a chance to burn with a longer barrel (I don't know if .44 mag rounds use faster burning handgun powder from the factory), wouldn't the velocity at the muzzle be higher from a rifle than a pistol, assuming the rounds were virtually identical? It would also be dependent upon the shape of the bullet which was fired.

 

[7mmRemMag]

Think about this. At 300y a 240 grain bullet will drop 6ft and will carry a velocity of around 850fps. If indeed he did say shoot at a street light, his position with the light and the position of the house all come into play. How far away from the light was he standing? So basically the street light is between the shooter and the house.

If the streetlight is 10ft tall there is no logical way that you could accomplish this feat in only 300y.

Me thinks he had to many to drink that night.

 

[Cosmoline]

Yes, it certainly can. Whether it did or not should be easy to find out by comparing the bullet to the rifling.

 

[jgorniak]

The rest of the article states

Cortez is being held without bail at the Denver City Jail for investigation of two counts of first-degree murder.

If this article has the facts right (hmmm...), is it even possible to charge someone with first-degree murder using a handgun from 300 yards? I can see some type of negligent homicide, maybe.

 

[Claude Clay]

so.....he is 6 feet tall(suppose) and aiming upwards ( gun is elevated~say 7+feet above ground level) light is 20 feet above ground ( pretty standard if the pole is 30 feet tall). suppose, again he is 20 feeet from pole, angle of 45 degrees. 20 minus 7 = 13 feet minus 6 foot drop at 300 yards. most doable. siding + particle board +sheet rock, not much of a hinderance. dumb thing to do, sad situation.

jg.....he acted in a carelesss and reckless mannor....its murder, although not premeditated. society needs to be distanced from him for a l o n g time.

 

[MakAttak]

If this article has the facts right (hmmm...), is it even possible to charge someone with first-degree murder using a handgun from 300 yards? I can see some type of negligent homicide, maybe.

If I remember correctly the prosecutors cited "Extreme Indifference" to human life which will make negligent homicide murder 1.

 

[Cosmoline]

I think they're going to have a hard time getting beyond manslaughter on this one. The fellow was apparently aiming at a street light, which is certainly RECKLESS but which doesn't involve human life at all. The killings were unforseen. If he'd fired randomly into a crowd, that would be another matter.

 

[zoom6zoom]

Hey, at least the stegosaur had a thagomizer...

Far Side rules!

 

[brigadier]

About 5 years ago, I read an article in a magazine about the .44 Magnum and it's history. In the article, the editor spent allot of time with this guy who specialized in the .44 Magnum and the S&W 29 in particular. The man claimed that he took a deer at 700 yards once. The author of the article said that he was very skeptical about it but all doubt was removed when the man shot a coffee can off-hand from across a canyon.
It's just one mans claim, but he's supposedly an authority on the .44 Magnum and one of it's most die hard loyalists since the cartridge first came out.

so.....he is 6 feet tall(suppose) and aiming upwards ( gun is elevated~say 7+feet above ground level) light is 20 feet above ground ( pretty standard if the pole is 30 feet tall). suppose, again he is 20 feeet from pole, angle of 45 degrees. 20 minus 7 = 13 feet minus 6 foot drop at 300 yards. most doable. siding + particle board +sheet rock, not much of a hinderance. dumb thing to do, sad situation.

I am 5/11 and when I go shooting, one thing I like to do is shoot at a 3ft round silhouette with my .44 Magnum Desert Eagle. I typically hit about 5-6 of 8 shots. This is off-hand without any fancy sighting and iron sights that put dime size groups in the bullseye at 10 meters aiming straight at it. At 300 yards, I have to raise my aim AT LEAST 12 feet to hit anywhere but below the target all together. My CZ-52 is both easier to hit the silhouette with (6 to 8 of 8 shots, 7 to 8 of 8 shots on good days) and drops considerably less. I probably only have to aim 7 or 8 feet high, which is actually allot easier then 12-14. Since I have ammo for my 10mm Beretta that gets 300fps more then the stuff I use in the CZ, I am very antsy to see how it performs at that range.

 

[Remmi]

I wouldn't count my chickens until they release the exact gun. I'm not doubting the .44's power on this, but depending on the kind of wall it has, at 300 yards I'd be starting to doubt on it's through and through trajectory; .44 is powerful, not doubt, stupidly powerful: but it's not built the same way a .303 or other high-penetration round is, even fired from a rifle like a Marlin.

I mean; I'm no expert; but I was under the impression the .44 Magnum, like many handgun rounds, was designed to deliver most of it's force on impact as opposed to deeper penetration, like a Hunting Rifle round would. The typically flat/blunt nosed tip alone supports that theory a bit more compared to the severe angle point on your average .303 rifle bullet.

It's possible, but I'd like to see a ballistics report on the slug before I call it. Regardless, I don't encourage using handguns as party favors.

 

[brigadier]

BTW. I don't want to sound like a Kennedy conspiracy theorist but reading the article, it really sounds like there was a second shooter, possibly from farther off who did the actual killing. I know that around here, looking for the gunman to have actually killed someone on new years by stray bullet is looking for a needle in a haystack. It isn't over until the fat lady sings, and am open to all possibilities, but I suspect the guy doesn't own a gun in the caliber that killed them. This doesn't change the fact that he was being reckless. If he IS in fact innocent of the killing, the only thing that really changes is that his shot happened to not hit anyone. I personally would love to pistol whip the man with my own .44 Magnum (Desert Eagle). Then again, I found bullet holes under my house, directly above where I spent most of the evening on New Years day 2007.

 

[Roswell 1847]

Guy in Knoxville back in the 70's or early 80's was killed at about that range when a rusted solid 1911 held in a vice was given a tap from a mallet and went off. The bullet went through the front wall of the gunshop and traveled across a highway and through the front window of a convenience store striking a customer at the counter in the head.
It only takes 50 fp to cause a casualty by US military standards.

 

[Cosmoline]

but I was under the impression the .44 Magnum, like many handgun rounds, was designed to deliver most of it's force on impact as opposed to deeper penetration

Actually a hardcast .44 or even .357 will penetrate much better than a high powered SP round from a rifle. They don't deform easily and their comparatively low FPS keeps them from tearing apart on impact. Walls are nothing to them.