Would like to get into Machine Guns

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But I just don't know much about them. My price range is anywhere from $500-2300. So school me. Give me a heads up as to what is out there, what you think a fine weapon choice may be, etc. And let me know if I am too poor and naive! :neener:

For those of you who own them, what has been your overall experience? And If I don't get one I am seriously thinking about picking up a Benelli M4 and a Bersa Thunder.380.
 
You aren't going to get anything for $2,400.

I know a local guy looking to sell a transferable MAC with suppresor for $3,500. That's about the best deal in NFA stuff that I'm aware of right now.
 
No you may not.
An American Commoner may not own an automatic weapon made after 1986, including conversions of semi- to full-auto. Any conversion parts from before that time are themselves registered and taxed like the whole gun and sell for thousands of dollars.

There are people seeking loopholes with dealer's and manufacturer's licenses but that takes a lot of money and a lot of legal support.

A friend of mine bought a Thompson in 1987 just after the ban went in. The price had already nearly doubled and he paid about $2500 twenty years ago. Those guns are now selling for five to ten times his price.
 
I agree. Machine guns are an expensive hobby. $3,000 to $3,500 *might* get you a Mac or a Reising. A Vector Uzi will set you back $6,300 to $6,700. Thompsons start at $15,000 for a West Hurley gun and go up (WAAAY UP) from there.

Sometimes you can get a deal that's just a little better than market rates, like an Uzi for $5,500 right now, but when a deal like that pops up the gun gets sold within *minutes* of being posted on a firearms board. You won't have time to think twice if you see one like that or ask a bunch of questions. Do your homework ahead of time. The only fantastic deals I've heard of, where the gun sells for way under the going rate, is when the buyer and seller knew each other ahead of time and the seller almost gives away the gun. Don't count on that, obviously, unless you have a rich uncle who collects MG's.

Check out www.uzitalk.com for info on MG's in general and Uzi's in particular.
 
No, there is not political support for repealing the ban on civilian possesion of machine guns manufactured after 1986. It's 20 years later and there has been no improvement on this. I don't expect that to change. The NRA doesn't really care about civilian MG ownership, so it's not a priority for them to try to change it, and there isn't a large enough MG owner's lobby to do any good politically. It is the way it is and that's how it's likely to stay.
 
Is there any pending legislation or any lawmaker who is trying to get things changed?

No. And think about it - if legislation to repeal 922(o) couldn't make it through Congress when the R's controlled both houses of Congress and the Presidency, what makes you think it'll go anywhere with Pelosi and company in charge???????

ETA: Unfortunately, there are forces at work within both the NRA and NFA community to make sure the ban stays in place.

Since you live in Kentucky I'd suggest you try to attend the Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot sometime. At least you can rent one there since $2400 isn't enough to buy one.
 
Check the NFA ad board on subguns.com.

I haven't checked Mac prices in a few months but there were still sub $3k Macs out there as late as November. They won't be NIB, but who cares for a Mac10 / Mac11. Frankly, used is better because the current inventory of NIB Macs are loose fitted, hastily assembled "Tx. Macs" that often have trouble out of the box. The upside is that it's a simple operating system and is easliy fixed.

If you find that Macs are just over the discretionary income hurdle, consider this - the transfer would take at least a month, start to finish. You will need the $200 transfer tax to ATF, but you may be able to initiate the transfer on half down terms. Obviously, do this only if you can afford it.

Alternatively, you could easily afford some suppressors for that price range...
They're fun in their own way.
 
No, there is not political support for repealing the ban on civilian possesion of machine guns manufactured after 1986. It's 20 years later and there has been no improvement on this. I don't expect that to change. The NRA doesn't really care about civilian MG ownership, so it's not a priority for them to try to change it, and there isn't a large enough MG owner's lobby to do any good politically. It is the way it is and that's how it's likely to stay.

Well its no wonder. Its simple economics. People don't buy what they cannot afford especially that which is excessively out of their price range. MG owners seem to screw themselves and others because of greed in terms of having a wider, non-elite base. I understand that rarity is an issue and agree that rarity should raise cost, but not to the level of paying 300%+ production/retail cost.
 
Well its no wonder. Its simple economics. People don't buy what they cannot afford especially that which is excessively out of their price range. MG owners seem to screw themselves and others because of greed in terms of having a wider, non-elite base. I understand that rarity is an issue and agree that rarity should raise cost, but not to the level of paying 300%+ production/retail cost.

Not sure it's all greed. A lot of MG owners state that most NFA folks would love to see the Registry re-opened, even if their investments plummetted in value. Most actually collect them b/c they like them, rather than for profit, and the prospect of buying a NIB MP5 for $1000 instead of $15,000 is pretty alluring.

However, many NFA folks might be against political movement, since it could easily backfire and cause a total ban on MGs, and even suppressors and SBR/SBS:

Politician A: I say we should make it easier to get MGs and suppressors
Politician B: They're not totally illegal already? OMG, a loophole, a loophole! Ban them all immediately! Confiscate and burn, no reimbursement!

etc. etc.

From what I've seen, some NFA folks are just hoping to keep the whole issue off the anti's radar.


Honestly, I don't see MGs as a huge political priority. Sure, I'd love a $400 Sterling, but the NRA money and political capital would better be spent on spreading CCW, teaching gun safety, etc. There are many more onerous Constitutional heresies out there.

I'd say getting SBS/SBR and suppressors off the NFA restrictions would be more useful. A semi-auto is almost as good as an auto, but even the sneakiest "not quite a suppressor" muzzlebrake can compare to a real suppressor. IRT SBS/SBR: it's just dumb that a tiny pistol is legal, but a massively oversized pistol is not. But I don't see those being rescinded either, barring a full revamp of much of the US legal system.

-MV
 
Thats ridiculous Jim.
Welcome to the party. :)

MG owners seem to screw themselves and others because of greed in terms of having a wider, non-elite base. I understand that rarity is an issue and agree that rarity should raise cost, but not to the level of paying 300%+ production/retail cost.

Let me put this simply. Horse crap.

It has nothing to do with greed, and everything to do with the laws of supply and demand. The government has destroyed the supply, while demand is ever increasing. If you can't afford to play the game, don't get mad at the people who do, get mad at the government for screwing it up to begin with.

If you don't understand Econ 101, don't presume to tell the NFA community that the prices are too high because of greed. I suppose I could sell you and M16 for $2,400 and take a huge loss, or I could sell the same gun for $11-$15,000. Is that greed, or stupidity?

ETA: Unfortunately, there are forces at work within both the NRA and NFA community to make sure the ban stays in place.

:scrutiny: I can't speak for the NRA, but I know very few NFA owners who feel that way. (what do I know though, I'm just an NFA dealer) :rolleyes: The vast majority would love to see the 86 law die tomorrow. If you happen to know a couple of rich jerks who would like to keep the value of their investment, then they are the oddities. Most of us would like to see our collections plummet in value in exchange for being able to buy new machine guns.

Alternatively, you could easily afford some suppressors for that price range...
They're fun in their own way.

I actually like suppressed guns better than machine guns. You can get into suppression for as little as $200. I sell 30 suppresors to every 1 machine gun I transfer.
 
I suggest you start saving, unless of course you have 5K+ to burn or have godly powers over government and repeal some stupid laws. I'm sweating for an Mp5 right now.(another 10 months to go) Goodluck!:)
 
Do a Google search on the "Hughes Amendment" and you'll find out why full-auto weapons cost so much. Gun owners were sucker-punched in the middle of the night (literally) by Charlie Rangel and his liberal cohorts in Congress.

:barf:
 
And can't I convert an AR?
Yes, with a drop in auto sear. Just make sure it's a registered DIAS (registered before May '86) and expect to pay over $10,000 on that little hunk of metal, if you can find one. The serial number is the expensive part since Uncle Sam cut off the supply of new ones in 86. Type in AR-15 DIAS in google to learn about them.
 
To be honest I'd like to get a MP5 in semi-auto, a real one, not a clone or parts gun, and not a hk94... the long barrel looks ridiculous...

Are there any of those in the country?

I know they are not allowed in WA State, as they would be a SBR... but I live 15-20 minutes from Idaho and spend most of my time and $$$ there... would eventually like to buy a house there...
 
To be honest I'd like to get a MP5 in semi-auto, a real one, not a clone or parts gun, and not a hk94.

I've never seen a semi-auto MP5. A Vector Arms V53 SBR clone is probably the closest thing you're going to find.
 
Okay. You live in the 'ville. Drive down the Dixie Dieway until you get to Highway 44, and hang a left (away from the river). About a mile or so on your left, you'll see a sign for Knob Creek Gun Range. The folks there can answer just about any question you'll have.

Tell 'em Bogie from Viking Machine sent you.
 
Glad I got an as-new M-11/9 and suppressor a few years ago for $1000 total, including the $400 in tax stamps.:eek:

Now I just wish I could get wipes for my suppressor.:rolleyes:


Note: go wipeless if at all possible.:banghead:
 
For those of you who own them, what has been your overall experience? And If I don't get one I am seriously thinking about picking up a Benelli M4 and a Bersa Thunder.380.
What other weapons do you have?
If you don't have any handguns, get the Bersa first. 380 Bersas are doing ok.

FerFAL
 
The ammo is the big cost factor for NFA Weapons in reality, it will eclipse the cost of the weapon rather quickly, unless you like to just sit and look at the thing, and not use it,lol..

Play around with Suppressed .22's or 9mm pistols..they are fun at the range, hee hee
 
This is how bans and grandfather clauses are effective. The market for machine guns once existed in the 70's and early 80's, it was a hobby enjoyed by those that jumped through NFA hoops that many others considered an infringement of thier rights (this is a time when computer databases were few, and research required looking through filed paperwork slowly and tediously). Keep in mind the NFA was supposed to be a ban for everyone except the rich in 1934. $200 back around the time of Prohibition and the Depression was more than anyone except today's equivalent of millionaires could afford. Here is a price list in 1934:
How Much things cost in 1934 Average Cost of
new house $5,970.00
Average wages per year $1,600.00
Cost of a gallon of Gas 10 cents
Average Cost for house rent $20.00 per month
A loaf of Bread 8 cents
A LB of Hamburger Meat 12 cents
Arrow Mens Shirt $2.50
Studebaker Truck $625.00

The average income in 2006 was $34,892 for the entire US according to http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost.
$200 was 12.5% of a person's yearly income. That would be the same as a stamp price of $4361.50 in 2006. That is on top of the price of the gun. This was during a time when most people were struggling to survive, nevermined afford extras.

How many people would purchase a firearm today, and then pay a tax of $4400? Probably only a select few right? Now imagine that was attached to an item seen in those days as a cheap affordable tool and not a hobby like today. Would you buy a $5 Hammer if it had a $200 tax when you could use another item as a hammer instead?

Yet due to inflation that stamp price gradualy fell into the price range of more and more people. To the tune that by the early 80's the average man that was willing to register with the federal government and was aware of the NFA hoops (no public internet back then) they could jump through could afford to own a fully automatic firearm. This was simply not acceptable, and since government was felt to have more authority in 1986 than anyone believed in 1934 a more serious ban could be implemented. Yet a clause was added to let those who already owned them continue to do so to avoid organized political opposition. Effectively silencing those that would care.

So you see the average man was never meant to be able to afford the hobby of full auto arms. Only inflation allowed it. By limiting it to only the very wealthy people they are kept out of the hands of those likely to use them for personal gain in crimes(in theory since they won't be desperate enough, same reason 'saturday night specials' and other "too affordable" guns not used by LE are banned). The legal number is also so low that any illegal use of them in theory is easy to track to the owner.

However with drug cartels, and easy modifications, as well as numerous parts of the world with easy full auto markets, criminals that wish to are able to use full auto arms anyways. However since most crimes involve something a criminal can conceal, whether it be a gun or a knife etc..and there being few full auto handguns, or semi auto versions of full auto ones(and therefore easily converted like the infamous KG-9, or early Tec 9), they are rarely used by the average street criminal. Thier use by organized crime though in planned crimes like along the border persists, but that is more because guns are outlawed altogether in Mexico, and so full auto and semi auto use in crimes makes little difference.. However even organized crime avoids items that will bring more investigative manpower down on them in the USA. They want to make things appear to be "normal" and not unique.

So you see it is really a class issue, and only those with a lot of money and successful financialy, or politicly important, are deemed suitable for full auto weaponry. Since the value of the legal full auto weaponry left is rising faster than inflation, and since existing guns are lost or destroyed this situation will not change. So no new laws governing them is seen as necessary. Eventualy most states and locations will have banned thier existance anyways with laws intended for semi auto firearms, like assault weapon laws which they fall under.
However when gun ownership is effectively banned altogether you will likely see a dramatic increase in thier use since those that still own or use firearms will not be trying to work around ownership rules, and just getting the most effective tool for the purpose they want it for.
 
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