Would this be considered a straw deal?

[jpatterson]

Hi all, as you might have read in some of my other posts I have the twenty-year-old handgun-woes. Here's the situation:

I have a handgun which I obtained legally through a FTF sale in my resident state that I am looking to trade for another. I found someone interested, but he is a MO resident and I am a KS resident. I know you can FTF trade/sell long-guns without going through an FFL, and that you need to go through an FFL to transfer for sales of handguns (even if its private) for KS and MO. However, for a trade, would it be a straw-type deal if someone else did the paperwork for me?

It's kind of an odd question (maybe a dumb one too) and I really doubt it would be legitimate, but I thought I'd throw it out there for you guys to chew on. I won't be doing a THING until I am absolutely, 110% certain.

What do you think?

 

[Eightball]

However, for a trade, would it be a straw-type deal if someone else did the paperwork for me?

Probably.

Just wait a year.

I really doubt it would be legitimate

Then don't do it. It's that easy.

 

[jpatterson]

I just reread what I wrote and it just sounds like a stupid idea. You're right, and thanks for the confirmation. I'm counting the days...

 

[deadin]

I know you can FTF trade/sell long-guns without going through an FFL,

This is only true if you both are from the same State and that State has no regulations against it. If you are from different States it still requires the services of a FFL.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Just wait a year.

In fact the way things are going, you might find yourself in a better position to get the weapon you really want.

Good luck!

 

[NavyLCDR]

18 USC 922:

(a) It shall be unlawful—
(6) for any person in connection with the acquisition or attempted acquisition of any firearm or ammunition from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, knowingly to make any false or fictitious oral or written statement or to furnish or exhibit any false, fictitious, or misrepresented identification, intended or likely to deceive such importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector with respect to any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale or other disposition of such firearm or ammunition under the provisions of this chapter;

Notice the law merely states acquitision, not purchase. Therefore your deal would be a "straw purchase" because you would be acquiring the firearm through a dealer by making a false statement on the 4473, even though no "purchase" from the dealer is involved.

 

[Badger Arms]

Straw man transaction. Just go to a dealer.

 

[waterhouse]

Straw man transaction.

Yes, it would be.

Just go to a dealer.

That does him no good, as a dealer can't transfer a handgun to him due to age.

About all you can do is hope to find a gun you are looking for in your own state and go buy it face to face in a private deal.

 

[Badger Arms]

Ahhhh, then just wait till you're 21 or find another gun in-state.

 

[woof]

I'm not saying this would be legal, but if the other guy comes into your state, you have no duty to verify his residence. Any action against you would probably fail unless it could be proven you knew he was from out of state.

 

[deadin]

you have no duty to verify his residence.

However, you are a fool if you buy a gun from a private party and don't have some sort of contact information in case it comes up stolen or used in a crime.

 

[green country shooter]

It's not a straw man sale as I define it, which is a buying for someone else.

But it's illegal to make private sales across state lines. So don't do it.

 

[waterhouse]

It's not a straw man sale as I define it, which is a buying for someone else.

NavyLT posted the actual law in post #6. It would be a straw man sale as the ATF defines it.

 

[green country shooter]

The words "straw man" do not appear anywhere in the law, so the "law" does not define it. If you use it to mean a private sale between a true owner and a true buyer, you are making the term so vague that it loses all meaning. The phrase "straw man" has a meaning in English, which is one person doing something for another and pretending it is for themselves. If you want to use "straw man" to mean "illegal firearms transaction" that's your right but it destroys the precision of language. It's like calling all rifles "assault rifles."

It is illegal to say you are the true buyer on a form 4473 if you are not, if you are buying it for someone else. To me, that is a straw man transaction.

It is also illegal to sell a firearm face to face without a dealer across state lines. That is illegal under a different statute, and that is not a straw man transaction to me.

It is not illegal to lie about being the true buyer in an otherwise legal face to face firearms transaction. Only the form 4473 makes it a crime - you are essentially committing perjury.

If the original purchaser meant that someone else was going to pretend to be the owner on the form 4473, then that would be illegal and he shouldn't do it. I guess i didn't really get exactly what he was suggesting in the first post, so we may be talking past each other.

 

[tsidorus]

Ok I got another one for you guys, I have a pistol that a friend wants to buy. He is under 21 so cant buy from a dealer but can from me. Sooo I like this pistol and would buy another of the same model with the funds from this sale. In fact my price would be set upon the price of its replacement. Sooo technically the new one isnt for the other person but to replace like item sold.

Technically no straw purchase, spirit of the law probably. What do all you internet lawyers have to say about it? This would be in AK so no wierd pistol permit crap.

-Tsi

 

[NavyLCDR]

tsidorus,

What you propose to do is to better your collection by selling part of your collection and then adding to it with the proceeds from the sale. There is nothing illegal about that. BATFE can't say anything about it. You sold a pistol that you have personally had in your private collection that you bought only with the intent of it being in your collection. Then you bought a pistol to better your collection because it was newer.

No different than a person selling a three year old car and buying a new one of the same model because they wanted a newer one.

 

[deadin]

I would imagine that just how long the gun in question has been in your "collection" and how long it is before you "replace" it could come into play. All within a week or so just might have you doing some fancy footwork with the BATFE.
You could probably get away with it one or two times, after that..............

 

[tsidorus]

no will have had it for over a year.... but I get your drift... It all comes to intent. Kinda like people buying 6 ARs and AKs cause they are gonna be worth more... Sorry you just became an unlicensed dealer... I suppose you can try the investment speak but isnt that trying to make a proffit with firearms... Seems a slippery slope to me.

- Tsi

 

[wyocarp]

Kinda like people buying 6 ARs and AKs cause they are gonna be worth more

Nothing wrong with that. I did it. I bought all the AK's a dealer had last November and was around your number above.

 

[tsidorus]

yes but did you buy them with the intent to add to you collection or as an "investment" as in I got all these cheap and can resell them for much more... Do a bit of that and it becomes rather difficult to not call it a source of income. And thus... You are operating a buisness. Reguardless of how you feel about the law a good DA could have a field day with that...

-Tsi

 

[waterhouse]

The words "straw man" do not appear anywhere in the law, so the "law" does not define it.

Just to be clear, I agree with you. I was very careful not to state that the law defines it. I wrote that the ATF defines it. They do so in the Federal Firearms Reference guide:

16. "STRAW PURCHASES"
Questions have arisen concerning the lawfulness of firearms purchases from licensees by persons who use a "straw purchaser" (another person) to acquire the firearms. Specifically, the actual buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute the Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser of the firearm.

If the original purchaser meant that someone else was going to pretend to be the owner on the form 4473, then that would be illegal and he shouldn't do it. I guess i didn't really get exactly what he was suggesting in the first post, so we may be talking past each other.

I think we probably are. I took the OP to mean that he was going to have someone else go fill out a 4473 to pick up the OPs gun that he traded for. If so, it is a straw man sale as the ATF defines it.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

tsidorus: "yes but did you buy them with the intent to add to you collection or as an "investment" as in I got all these cheap and can resell them for much more... Do a bit of that and it becomes rather difficult to not call it a source of income. And thus... You are operating a buisness. Reguardless of how you feel about the law a good DA could have a field day with that..."

They certainly could, were they so inclined. By the way, net income is not a requirement in order for a series of purchases and sales to be considered a business. Just ask General Motors. In fact, technically not one single sale is required. It's all a matter of intent, determined with reference to the facts and circumstances. A gun store which acquires inventory, fails to make a single sale in its first year and goes out of business WAS in business, and its proprietor should be able to treat it as a business for tax purposes. He needed to have his FFL, even though he didn't succeed in making a single sale.

 

[Guns and more]

Ok I got another one for you guys, I have a pistol that a friend wants to buy. He is under 21 so cant buy from a dealer but can from me.

How can you sell to someone you know is under 21?
I'm no legal beagle, but this sounds shady, at best.
There is a reason guns aren't sold to those under 21.

 

[deadin]

Federal law forbids a FFL holder selling a handgun to anyone under 21.
Doesn't say anything about private sales. That is left up to the separate States. Some State laws say 21, others 18...............

 

[NavyLCDR]

How can you sell to someone you know is under 21?

If they are 18 or older they hand you the money, you hand them the gun. :shrug:
(In most states, anyway)

I'm no legal beagle, but this sounds shady, at best.

You are correct, you are not a legal beagle, and that, precisely is why it sounds shady, at best, to you.

There is a reason guns aren't sold to those under 21.

And what reason would that be?