Would You Do It?

[HoosierQ]

Would you use your CCW to stop a public shooting? I mean would you really? We hear time after time that self protection and protecting others...being the "Sheepdog"...is the most valuable use of our RKBA. Would you step forward and stop a public shooting spree? Or would you get your family the heck out first (maintaining "Sheepdog" status I think)? If you were there by yourself? Would you do it? Would you try? Would you seek out the perpetrator? Would you lay in wait? Bug out altogether?

Too many questions to answer of course but how far can the "sheepdog" analogy be taken in the real world? Or are we really "hornets" who'd defend the home only?

I ask you because I cannot answer for myself. I know I'd be a "hornet"...or think that. But could I really be the "sheepdog"? I just don't know.

 

[Roadking Rider]

Yes I would. "Really" I would have to get my family to safety first. Then and only then, If I could get a clear low risk shot off without doing any farther injury to others then yes I would take it. The big question is what is low risk when every tenth of a second counts?? Hard to say sitting here at a keyboard. I never considered myself a sheepdog or anything like that, but I'd have a heck of a time living with myself knowing that I stood by while innocent women and children were being slaughted by some nutcase and I did nothing, or at least try to remedy the situation armed or not. That to me would be mental torture, and a fate much worse than death itself.

 

[hq]

Having been in an armed (knife vs. gun, fortunately, but in close quarters) self defense situation, I have to say most likely yes. After the shock of realizing what's happening, military training kicks in and you fall back to basics; survive, protect others and even draw fire to your position if that's necessary for stalling the opponent and buying time. It's amazing how your hands shake at first, after a few seconds the shaking just stops and you become extremely focused, not really caring about anything but stopping the assailant at all costs.

Funny thing is, I never thought I'd react like that. I could not have predicted it in advance. On the other hand, even the thought of being able and equipped to stop a killer and not doing anything about it makes my stomach turn. CCW is not just about protecting yourself, it's about common good and there's a strong obligation of taking action. Without this responsibility much of the talk about guns saving lives is meaningless.

Just my .02c.

 

[mcdonl]

I have no idea. I train by shooting IDPA and going to the range weekly. I practice my mindset every waking hour, and I work in EMS so I am trained to stay calm in chaotic situations.

All of that said, my first instinct would be to protect my family if they were with me and my second would be to protect my families future by increasing my chances of staying alive.

Once those two objectives were met (Or in the process of meeting those objectives) I would do whatever I needed to do to stop harm coming to others.

 

[psyopspec]

Too many questions to answer of course but how far can the "sheepdog" analogy be taken in the real world?

I won't guess what I'd do. The bulk of the decision would be dictated by situation. On the one end of the scale, if the shooter was between myself and a loved one I would be very likely to intervene. On the other, if it was in a large area like a shopping center and the shooter was on the other side I may exit, since moving there would involve visually clearing as I went. By the time I got there, the immediacy of the situation would likely be over and cops would be on scene. The last thing I want to be is a man with a gun when the call they are responding to is a man with a gun engaged in an active shooting.

As to that atrocious analogy, over time I've noticed that untrained and inexperienced people tend to self-declare as righteous keepers of the herd.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Multiple armed BG's? Probably not.

Single armed BG ... and I've got good position/cover? Reasonable chance of success. I would like to think so.

But, you don't really know until you are there. If I'm never "there" it will be fine by me.

 

[Onward Allusion]

It depends on the situation. Got to analyze the situation and take appropriate measures to protect self and family first. If there's an opportunity to take further action then take it or don't. Otherwise, get out of the situation.

Anyone who automatically says "Absolutely...I would blah blah blah and take the BG out...." is either lying or a fool. Yes, I said it. I'm feeling crusty today.

 

[Hokkmike]

Difficult to answer the hypothetical. Too many variables. If the incident occurs and you are in a position of concealment or tactical advantage then armed response seems not only a good bet but also a responsibility. If you are out in the "open" then safety is a first priority.

Most malls I have been in (obviously unwisely in my opinion) prohibit firearms. It wouldn't surprise me that after you neutralized the threat and were declared a "hero" by many that you would then be cited.

 

[AlexanderA]

The key thing to remember is that having a concealed-carry permit doesn't make you a policeman. It's for self-defense only. If you're not under direct threat, your recourse is to call 911. Anything else, and you're treading on some very slippery legal ground.

 

[JustinJ]

It's for self-defense only.

Says who? Definitely not my state legislature, nor that of many other states, as our laws clearly allows for the defense of third parties in life or death situations.

If my loved one were about to be the victim of a mass shooter i'd certainly hope others who are able would act to defend them.

 

[pockets]

The key thing to remember is that having a concealed-carry permit doesn't make you a policeman.

Finally......some reality. I was getting overwhelmed by chest thumping for a minute. Hey, if we all thumped to the beat of 'Stayin Alive' we could practice resuscitation!
Sad thing is, when I read the term 'sheepdog' these days, the image of poor George Zimmerman appears in my mind.
The law says I can protect me and mine...that includes me NOT leaving my family to fend for themselves while I'm in prison for playing hero in a mall.

.

 

[303tom]

I Would..................

 

[jcwit]

Only those who have faced a deadly situation can honestly answer this, all else is purely speculation.

 

[hq]

Only those who have faced a deadly situation can honestly answer this, all else is purely speculation.

I second that wholeheartedly. There's a massive difference between 'in silico, 'in vitro' and 'in vivo' in science and applying that to other issues is not a given for many people. "I don't know" is a much better answer than a hypothesis.

 

[HoosierQ]

It's just that we hear so much, in our community, that "if only people could carry their CCW in {insert locality of the current news moment here} these mass shootings could be stopped"!

But would they? Sounds like personal protection is the actual, in practice, limit. There is much evidence of the gun owner protecting himself and family, carjacking, home invading, late night cashiers, all of that stuff is common and even makes the news. So far, intervention in a shooting spree...no.

I bring this up, I guess, in the hope that we as a community...a community always under one form of "attack" or another from idiots like Piers Morgan and Bob Costas (for crying out loud)...can refine what the RKBA really means to us and what we as a community can be expected by the USA to do with that right. I submit that if stopping mass shootings is a justification we use to support and promote our right to CC, we need to evaluate that for validity. As a community, we need credibility. If we promote un-realistic scenarios, we loose some of that.

Now let me be clear on my personal position: I live where there is no prohibition to carry in just about any place. Ironically, the only place I've seen a sign to not carry a gun around here is at gun shops! So I have had a gun in many everyday places...all legally...groceries, sporting goods, hardware, restaurants that serve alcohol, etc. Thank goodness it's never left the holster in any of them and by the Grace of God, it never will. I would be sorely tested in such a situation to know what to do.

 

[hq]

So far, intervention in a shooting spree...no.

Really?

http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/

 

[Apachedriver]

Sounds like personal protection is the actual, in practice, limit. There is much evidence of the gun owner protecting himself and family, carjacking, home invading, late night cashiers, all of that stuff is common and even makes the news. So far, intervention in a shooting spree...no.

I submit that if stopping mass shootings is a justification we use to support and promote our right to CC, we need to evaluate that for validity. As a community, we need credibility. If we promote un-realistic scenarios, we loose some of that.

But stopping mass shootings is not a justification for CC. Personal defense is the reason for CC.
And if every individual would get their own CCW in order to protect and defend themselves, I submit these irrational mass shootings, as well as purposeful attacks, could be reduced, at least in the possibility of occurrence.

I understand that there are those that can't attain CCW for various reasons but I doubt that they are the majority.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I wish I could say yes, definitely. But the real answer is maybe.

Situation like the theatre shooter here in CO this summer? If you're in there, what choice do you have? I can confidently say that yes, in that type of situation, I'd definitely return fire.

Scenarios like these mall shootings? That would really depend. Even if I didn't have family in tow, you're talking about trying to play SWAT with maybe a duty size handgun, more likely a compact. It would be foolish to try to engage an active shooter with a rifle, unless you could get the drop on him. And then there's always the concern of LEOs showing up and not knowing who's who. Maybe they'll order you to drop your weapon. Then again, maybe they'll just drop you. They're not supposed to shoot first and ask questions later, but in the high stress, chaotic environment of an active shooter situation, they just might.

There's also always the threat identification issue. Could I positively identify who's the felonious shooter, and who may be a plain clothes cop or another CCW holder?

I would like to think that I'd be able to help others by putting fire on an assailant, but I have my own family to think about. I'm not a sworn officer who is paid to do so, I don't have the kind of training a SWAT or CTU officer does, I won't have backup, and I most likely will have inferior armament.

 

[Sam1911]

Too many questions to answer of course but how far can the "sheepdog" analogy be taken in the real world? Or are we really "hornets" who'd defend the home only?

Truth be told, the whole "Sheepdogs" thing is so overblown and tired (and self-aggrandizing) as to be irksome anymore.

The likelihood of any of us ever being in the same TOWN as a mass-shooting actively taking place is pretty darned small, let alone the nearly infinitely lesser liklihood that we'd be in the same building or area, at the right moment, would be aware of exactly what was happening, and be so perfectly positioned as to be able to take any positive action at all. After all -- despite what it seems like when you watch the news -- mass-murdering psychopaths (like terrorists) are still an astronomically rare phenomenon in our society. Being involved in such a rampage is probably about as likely as being attacked by a shark while falling to your death in a runaway elevator.

With that in mind, your strategy should be the same as in any potential emergency situation:
1) Move me and anyone in my care out of harm's way.
2) Notify first-responders.
3) Observe and be a good witness
4) Help others escape
5) Direct action to stop threat if safe and prudent and necessary

In the end, there are so many variables and so few possible ways for the scenario to unfold which involve you being in a place to have to act -- or even to be able to act effectively -- that it is probably best not to focus too much on plans for how you would face down a threat like that. Setting yourself up to feel honor-bound (or whatever) to go forth and stop this evil starts to turn your head from the important things you really need to do (saving the lives of yourself and those you're actually responsible for, and surviving as a free man or woman to be able to continue to support and provide for your family) and draws you toward decision paths which could end with you acting unwisely, unsafely -- and quite possibly unlawfully -- in your earnestness to resist evil and take out the bad guy.

 

[TRX]

For a clear and present danger to my family, yes. For myself, possibly. For strangers... circumstances would dictate, but the default response would be "no."

My primary responsibility is to my family. In any but the clearest-cut, justified, and preferably videotaped circumstances, the probable police/prosecutor/court hassle could greatly injure my family, both in loss of earnings and hassle.

 

[RaceM]

I'm proud to be a "sheepdog", so yes, I would. I took an oath over 30 years ago to defend against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and still take it seriously.

USCG veteran

 

[Hokkmike]

If you could save one or more lives and didn't act how would you feel? That is another question embedding in the larger one.

 

[HoosierQ]

I think citing the "daily anarchist" may need some support. I am certainly open to such a citation...I mean facts are facts after all. Not sure that the daily anarchist stands alone as that objective source I'd be looking for.

There are no shortages of stories of individual acts of self defense in many scenarios...and we don't need the daily anarchist to read about them.

Citation fail.

 

[HoosierQ]

At least we have pretty much forever de-bunked Gecko45. Actually too bad all that wasn't true.

 

[Robert]

I can not stand the term "sheepdog". I will first and foremost protect myself and my family or whoever happens to be with me. Am I going to run towards the sound of gun fire? Highly doubtful. I am not a Trooper anymore and I may very well make the situation worse. Now the police are getting reports of two gunmen.

Simply owning a firearm and having a carry permit does not make one qualified to place themselves into a situation like this. And if we go by what we read on internet forums most gun owners have far too little training and trigger time to do any good. Again, owning a firearm does not male you an expert, or even a good shot. One must practice, practice, practice.

If the threat were right there in front of me? Sure I'd like to think I'd take action to stop the threat. But all the posturing in the world means nothing when bullets are going over head.