sniper5
Member
No
In any way, shape, or form it means I'm having a really bad day.
In any way, shape, or form it means I'm having a really bad day.
Would you feel good about killing in self defense?
- Thread starter Grandpa Shooter
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Shadow1198
Member
I hope to God I never get in a situation where I have to defend myself and/or am forced to shoot someone as a last resort. If I am unlucky enough to be in such a situation and hopefully it turns out in my favor I would feel glad I'm alive, but I would feel horrible about having to shoot or kill someone. I think that type of mindset is the way normal sane people feel. Anyone that would actually feel good after an incident like that clearly has some mental issues and should either get help or avoid society altogether. Then there are people that when threatened with death are willing to just lay down and die (anti-gun people being a large part of this type) rather than fight with every ounce of their being for their life. As far as I'm concerned, if you are threatened and physically able to fight but are unwilling to do so, you (generally speaking, not about anyone here) are just a second rate citizen of which I have little patience for.
mewachee
Member
No body is happy they have to go through a bad situation.
I would not shoot unless I had to. However, when we look back on bad situations, we judge ourselves on how well we handled that situation, not that the situation was bad.
If I came upon an accident, let's say a car is sinking in a river; I dive in and save only one of the two people in the car. Well of course I would feel sadness, but I could also feel gratitude that I was able to save one. With bad guys that choose/decision becomes easier to live with.
A great man once said, "Now is the time to decide to decide."
Loose a life to save a life, works for me.
I would not shoot unless I had to. However, when we look back on bad situations, we judge ourselves on how well we handled that situation, not that the situation was bad.
If I came upon an accident, let's say a car is sinking in a river; I dive in and save only one of the two people in the car. Well of course I would feel sadness, but I could also feel gratitude that I was able to save one. With bad guys that choose/decision becomes easier to live with.
A great man once said, "Now is the time to decide to decide."
Loose a life to save a life, works for me.
BruceRDucer
Member
I would feel good about being ALIVE; but I would not FEEL GOOD about any kind of shooting.
32winspl
Member
grandpa shooter.... are you absolutely braindead? I find it nearly unbelievable that you could ask this question! This tops it all.... all the dumbasses that want to argue about calibers, gun-brands, glocks vs 1911s, etc. How goddamn stupid a question can you ask? Would I feel good about killing in self defence? You MUST BE A FRICKIN MORON.
spiroxlii
Member
32winspl, that is most definitely not High Road.
Grandpa Shooter has explained more than once in this thread that he was just looking for honest responses from his fellow board members. He has served in the US military and had occasion to shoot at people in the past. He hopes never to do it again, but there is the possibility that any one of us could have to defend himself in the future.
Perhaps the question is worded provocatively, but the question itself is not intrinsically evil or stupid. It's just a question.
Grandpa Shooter has explained more than once in this thread that he was just looking for honest responses from his fellow board members. He has served in the US military and had occasion to shoot at people in the past. He hopes never to do it again, but there is the possibility that any one of us could have to defend himself in the future.
Perhaps the question is worded provocatively, but the question itself is not intrinsically evil or stupid. It's just a question.
spiroxlii
Member
mewachee said:
Sociopaths might.
Pretty much everybody in this thread is answering along the same lines. We wouldn't feel good that it was necessary to use deadly force in self defense, but we'd rather be alive to regret it than dead.
I was not offended by the question, but after seeing that we all pretty much think along the same lines, I wondered why the question was necessary in the first place. After poking around THR for a while, it dawned on me.
If you look around THR, especially in the tactics and handguns forums, you find a whole boatload of threads where people eagerly discuss the tactics of defensive engagements, the best rounds to shoot people with, the best guns to shoot people with, etc. Often, the posters in those threads seem unnaturally eager, gleeful, or just plain cold when it comes to the topic of using deadly force.
Perhaps Grandpa Shooter's question was a reality check that some of us needed. It made us stop and think about the human side of the equation rather than the steel, lead, copper, and polymer side of it.
32winspl
Member
No spiro, it's a stupid question! I'm a law-abiding gun owner. Was this a**hole expecting me to say "Yeah, I'm proud to have blown him away after he assaulted my wife". Or, "I'd have killed him again" had he messed with my daughter. No, it's a stupid question, and I resent the hell out of his having asked it. I find it hard to believe that it has been allowed to smolder this long. I may be banned for my response but so what. How can the rest of you diddle around the answer so long?
spiroxlii
Member
I refer to my post right above yours, 32winspl. I'm glad you have your head on straight, but somebody surfing around THR really might get the idea that we're bloodthirsty gun nuts.
Myself said:
Damn right! I wish I was there along with Gecko45 and SPECOPS with a super tactical golfcart outfitted with trauma plates and armed with MP5s. We would have made REAL pudding out of these murdering hijackers. Perhaps even the Mayor whose nephew Gecko45 saved would be there at our awards ceremony!
32winspl
Senior Member
Join Date: 11-04-07
Location: Wausau, Wi.
Posts: 134
"grandpa shooter.... are you absolutely braindead? I find it nearly unbelievable that you could ask this question! This tops it all.... all the dumbasses that want to argue about calibers, gun-brands, glocks vs 1911s, etc. How goddamn stupid a question can you ask? Would I feel good about killing in self defence? You MUST BE A FRICKIN MORON."
Totally and completely uncalled for.
Put that puppy on a leash. Who the hell do you think you are?
Treat the man with respect.
Biker
Senior Member
Join Date: 11-04-07
Location: Wausau, Wi.
Posts: 134
"grandpa shooter.... are you absolutely braindead? I find it nearly unbelievable that you could ask this question! This tops it all.... all the dumbasses that want to argue about calibers, gun-brands, glocks vs 1911s, etc. How goddamn stupid a question can you ask? Would I feel good about killing in self defence? You MUST BE A FRICKIN MORON."
Totally and completely uncalled for.
Put that puppy on a leash. Who the hell do you think you are?
Treat the man with respect.
Biker
32winspl
Member
Spiro, you have me wrong... I'm not pissed at Grandpa's question because it's obvious that I'd shoot, thus making me a bloodthirsty gunslinger to those readers whom occasionally read this site; no, I'm pissed off because the wording of his question asks if I would feel some level of satisfaction in having killed someone. His question was "WOULD YOU FEEL GOOD ABOUT KILLING IN SELF DEFENCE?" I guess aside from "Grandpa's" initial question, I can't imagine that the moderator has allowed this assinine question to go on for 7 pages in light of how quickly so many other threads have been shut down. Were they (moderator) waiting for someone to say "yes, they deserved killin' and I'ma proud to have done it"? I'm still not suggesting that this be closed down, I'm just having trouble understanding why Grandpa hasn't been bitchslapped until now.
OMGWTFBBQ
Member
Good? No. Relieved that I'm alive? Yes.
There's a big difference between feeling "good" about it and not having guilt about it. Given the choice between making the guy magically disappear and reappear in a jail cell or shooting him I doubt any of us would opt for the latter, but unfortunately sometimes it's the only choice you have.
Carl N. Brown
Member
I have heard too many stories of cops going through trauma
over killing totally bad people to believe I could feel good about it.
Do doctors feel good about cutting off a gangrenous leg? No.
Do they feel good about saving a life? Yes.
Same thing morally with a justifiable shooting.
The act is nothing to feel good about:
it is the result that counts.
over killing totally bad people to believe I could feel good about it.
Do doctors feel good about cutting off a gangrenous leg? No.
Do they feel good about saving a life? Yes.
Same thing morally with a justifiable shooting.
The act is nothing to feel good about:
it is the result that counts.
littlegator
Member
The question is as valid as it is personal. I'm glad that the first person I spoke to before I purchased my first handgun asked me to be introspective about this very issue before I bought the firearm. He is a friend who hunts every year and has several guns (mostly 1911s), and I thought, if anyone knows what gun I should get, it will be him... The great thing is, is that he didn't educate me on which gun is the most accurate, the most reliable, etc., he educated me on gun safety and the principles of gun ownership, which in my opinion, involves the moral dilemma inherent in gun use for self defense. He saw that I was interested in getting a handgun - actually, I was excited... and told me, "Ya know, I've got several firearms Dave. You know I go huntin every year as well. I keep one loaded in the nightstand every night. And when it comes down to it, if someone came into my house at night, I'd still try and pack up my family, hide, call the police, and do everything I could - including leaving my house, before I'd take another person's life, even if justified." (paraphrased of course) There's something to that for me.
My religion tells me there are justifiable reasons for killing another human being. The law of my state and federal governments tells me there are justifiable reasons for killing another human being. My intincts tells me there are times when it is permissible as well. My humanity? Well, it's hard to tell, because I have never had to face that one. Hope never have to. I also hope never to have to tell my family that I couldn't protect them if I had the chance because I decided instead to fear the decision. I looked at myself long ago and decided that I would still buy a firearm knowing that I might have to use it on something other than paper. Who knows how I will react if and until I ever have to. I know Grandpa Shooter was posing a rhetorical question, and as aforementioned, it's one I asked myself a long time ago before I ever got the gun. It's a valid and relevant question to me.
My religion tells me there are justifiable reasons for killing another human being. The law of my state and federal governments tells me there are justifiable reasons for killing another human being. My intincts tells me there are times when it is permissible as well. My humanity? Well, it's hard to tell, because I have never had to face that one. Hope never have to. I also hope never to have to tell my family that I couldn't protect them if I had the chance because I decided instead to fear the decision. I looked at myself long ago and decided that I would still buy a firearm knowing that I might have to use it on something other than paper. Who knows how I will react if and until I ever have to. I know Grandpa Shooter was posing a rhetorical question, and as aforementioned, it's one I asked myself a long time ago before I ever got the gun. It's a valid and relevant question to me.
OP
OP
Grandpa Shooter
Member
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Spiroxlii said,
You got it! Don't worry about defending me. I learned a long time ago that some people operate in the realm of emotion simply because it is too much for them too handle when forced to think or be introspective. Having been there and done that, I simply wanted to challenge people to think before they leap. Putting oneself in the position of having the tools and the opportunity to take a life should, in my opinion, cause people to stop and think. I am capable of defending myself with words or firearms, but will not act rashly with either as some seem inclined to do.
You got it! Don't worry about defending me. I learned a long time ago that some people operate in the realm of emotion simply because it is too much for them too handle when forced to think or be introspective. Having been there and done that, I simply wanted to challenge people to think before they leap. Putting oneself in the position of having the tools and the opportunity to take a life should, in my opinion, cause people to stop and think. I am capable of defending myself with words or firearms, but will not act rashly with either as some seem inclined to do.
sprithitler
Member
Would i feel good about ending the life of a badguy? Most likely not.
Would i feel good about saving his victim(s) to live another day? I most likely would.
When i was assaulted and battered three and a half years ago it took me quite a few hours on the phone with friends to wind down enough to sleep, then i slept well for about a week, before i started a decline, i didnt realise at the time that i wasnt feeling right, but my peace of mind, my confidence in socciety and my confidence in fellow man had all but evaporated. I didnt understand this until the perpetrator was convicted and sent to jail (after five month). That was like the society saying that "he was wrong and you were right. When i got the courts verdict in the mail a week after the trial it was like the sun rising after a long and bitter night.
I believe that being pushed into a situation of deciding that the other guy must be killed in order for yourself or those under your protection may live will give a similar reaction, but possibly of a higher order of magnitude. knowing how i felt after the fight i was in i know that i most certainly dont want to find out how i would react to killing someone, and that if i was put into the situation of having killed a Badguy i would definitely get some sessions with a counselor as well as tak extensively with my priest.
That said, i believe that if i had the badguy in my sights and the situation either didnt allow me to call for him to cease and desist or he didnt heed my calls of "HALT"... "HALT OR I SHOOT" (military guardsposts training) I would do what my training has taught me to do, shoot two shots at the enemies center of mass and sort out the consequenses after the threat is neutralised.
At the end of the day, i would rather be judghed by my consciense and a court, than be put in the ground, or worse, see those depending on me put in the ground.
Would i feel good about saving his victim(s) to live another day? I most likely would.
When i was assaulted and battered three and a half years ago it took me quite a few hours on the phone with friends to wind down enough to sleep, then i slept well for about a week, before i started a decline, i didnt realise at the time that i wasnt feeling right, but my peace of mind, my confidence in socciety and my confidence in fellow man had all but evaporated. I didnt understand this until the perpetrator was convicted and sent to jail (after five month). That was like the society saying that "he was wrong and you were right. When i got the courts verdict in the mail a week after the trial it was like the sun rising after a long and bitter night.
I believe that being pushed into a situation of deciding that the other guy must be killed in order for yourself or those under your protection may live will give a similar reaction, but possibly of a higher order of magnitude. knowing how i felt after the fight i was in i know that i most certainly dont want to find out how i would react to killing someone, and that if i was put into the situation of having killed a Badguy i would definitely get some sessions with a counselor as well as tak extensively with my priest.
That said, i believe that if i had the badguy in my sights and the situation either didnt allow me to call for him to cease and desist or he didnt heed my calls of "HALT"... "HALT OR I SHOOT" (military guardsposts training) I would do what my training has taught me to do, shoot two shots at the enemies center of mass and sort out the consequenses after the threat is neutralised.
At the end of the day, i would rather be judghed by my consciense and a court, than be put in the ground, or worse, see those depending on me put in the ground.
woad_yurt
Member
If I ever shot someone in self defense, I wouldn't feel good about it; I'd probably be very upset. But I would certainly not feel guilty about it.
I would feel good about killing a bad guy in self defense for several reasons.
One because it's very much possible that by my killing him I have saved others that would have been robbed, harmed or killed by this criminal.
I don't really see why anyone would feel bad about killing someone who was trying to kill you or your loved ones.
Criminals deserve no less.
One because it's very much possible that by my killing him I have saved others that would have been robbed, harmed or killed by this criminal.
I don't really see why anyone would feel bad about killing someone who was trying to kill you or your loved ones.
Criminals deserve no less.
I don't think I'd feel bad. I know from past life/death situations(not involving killing at all) I get the shakes after though it's probably from epinephrine.
I've been in a lot of fights(lost most), and on two occassions I've come close to killing someone, once I stopped myself the other time my friend stopped me. I did not start eithier confrontation. I'm glad I didn't finish both for the legal and moral repercussions. Having said that My father who is a Vietnam veteran told me once when he loosened up that it's just something you do, you shouldn't be afraid to do it or take pleasure in, but it dosen't really bother you. Now he's only talked about it once and I can also say that my mom said he hasn't slept a full night since coming back.
I've been in a lot of fights(lost most), and on two occassions I've come close to killing someone, once I stopped myself the other time my friend stopped me. I did not start eithier confrontation. I'm glad I didn't finish both for the legal and moral repercussions. Having said that My father who is a Vietnam veteran told me once when he loosened up that it's just something you do, you shouldn't be afraid to do it or take pleasure in, but it dosen't really bother you. Now he's only talked about it once and I can also say that my mom said he hasn't slept a full night since coming back.
1911 guy
Member
Good? No. Would I suck it up and get what help I needed to get over it? Yes.
Taking a life is serious business and anyone who would feel "good" is what we call a sociopath. Doing it because it needs to be done and making the decision to deal with the aftermath is just life, sometimes.
Taking a life is serious business and anyone who would feel "good" is what we call a sociopath. Doing it because it needs to be done and making the decision to deal with the aftermath is just life, sometimes.
This is one of those threads I don't want to wade thru and that I figure will be locked and no one will read my post by page 7 but I feel a need to chime in.
Would I/do I feel bad about such situations? Not really, I'd rather not have it happen and have had to make some hard choices like this in the past but the main reason such situations bother me is financial/legal ramifications, not my mental state or such. I've never been big on shrinks and psychobabble.
Basically this is how I see it, taking the life of someone that means an innocent person grave harm has similarities to slaughtering an animal for food. Yes is it distasteful and no one should have to be subjected to it but when it comes between protecting or feeding your family and the alternative, there really is no choice is there?
I have been in a few situations were I would have been justified to shoot where I didn't shoot w/o having to endanger myself or others and it's good it turned out that way. Of course macho friends and people involved including LE talk about how they would have blown the guy away, I just saw it that if the thread drops the weapon or breaks and runs it was a better deal for both of us.
Would I/do I feel bad about such situations? Not really, I'd rather not have it happen and have had to make some hard choices like this in the past but the main reason such situations bother me is financial/legal ramifications, not my mental state or such. I've never been big on shrinks and psychobabble.
Basically this is how I see it, taking the life of someone that means an innocent person grave harm has similarities to slaughtering an animal for food. Yes is it distasteful and no one should have to be subjected to it but when it comes between protecting or feeding your family and the alternative, there really is no choice is there?
I have been in a few situations were I would have been justified to shoot where I didn't shoot w/o having to endanger myself or others and it's good it turned out that way. Of course macho friends and people involved including LE talk about how they would have blown the guy away, I just saw it that if the thread drops the weapon or breaks and runs it was a better deal for both of us.
BruceRDucer
Member
Psychic Cleanliness
"Perhaps Grandpa Shooter's question was a reality check that some of us needed. It made us stop and think about the human side of the equation rather than the steel, lead, copper, and polymer side of it."--Spiroxlii
There's an idea termed PSYCHIC CLEANLINESS. It's about the MENTAL stuff, the thoughts and feelings that we allow to float around inside.
It isn't "good" to wallow in exultant feelings of pleasure regarding killing.
However, the objection to the asking of the original questions also has valid aspects. Some questions can suggest that we wallow around in speculations, where plain action is the proper issue. Self-Defense is ethically justifiable in any context. Always. If you have a problem with Self-Defense ethics, get that sorted out first.
Perhaps we can try to be respectful and calm, because after all, the purpose of a forum is to post our feelings and ideas. Don't let some other forum user Pull-Your-Trigger.
In the final analysis, we're brothers in arms, I think.
"Perhaps Grandpa Shooter's question was a reality check that some of us needed. It made us stop and think about the human side of the equation rather than the steel, lead, copper, and polymer side of it."--Spiroxlii
There's an idea termed PSYCHIC CLEANLINESS. It's about the MENTAL stuff, the thoughts and feelings that we allow to float around inside.
It isn't "good" to wallow in exultant feelings of pleasure regarding killing.
However, the objection to the asking of the original questions also has valid aspects. Some questions can suggest that we wallow around in speculations, where plain action is the proper issue. Self-Defense is ethically justifiable in any context. Always. If you have a problem with Self-Defense ethics, get that sorted out first.
Perhaps we can try to be respectful and calm, because after all, the purpose of a forum is to post our feelings and ideas. Don't let some other forum user Pull-Your-Trigger.
In the final analysis, we're brothers in arms, I think.
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