Wouldn't suggest buying any rifles from India...

[Drizzt]

Indian guns let 'Nepal down in Maoist battle'

Reuters
Posted online: Friday, August 12, 2005 at 2008 hours IST
Updated: Friday, August 12, 2005 at 2011 hours IST

Kathmandu, August 12: The Nepali army said on Friday faulty Indian assault rifles were partly responsible for its heavy death toll in a gun battle with Maoist rebels as troops hunted for 75 soldiers still missing after the fighting.

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Forty-three soldiers and a civilian were killed when hundreds of rebels attacked an army base in the remote Kalikot district, 600 km from the capital, Kathmandu, late on Sunday.

The Maoists, fighting to topple Nepal's monarchy and establish Communist rule, say they captured 52 soldiers after the raid, a claim rejected by the army.

Army spokesman Brigadier-General Dipak Gurung said the Indian-manufactured INSAS rifles malfunctioned during the fighting which continued for about 10 hours.

"Soldiers complained that the INSAS rifles did not function properly during the fighting which lasted for a long time," Gurung told a news conference when asked why the army death toll was high.

"May be the weapons we were using were not designed for a long fight. They malfunctioned," he said.

There were also fewer troops at the base as it was a road construction project and not a fighting base, he added.

The army casualties were the heaviest since Maoist violence escalated after King Gyanendra seized direct power in February by sacking the multiparty government.

"There were stoppages during the firing, the rifles got hot and soldiers had to wait for them to cool," another officer said.

India is a key military supplier to the poorly equipped Nepali army. But New Delhi suspended arms supplies six months ago after the King's power grab to press the monarch to restore multi-party democracy and civil liberties.

Nepali troops have complained in the past about technical problems with the Indian designed and built INSAS or Indian Small Arms System assault rifle.

Indian troops using the rifle are also known to have faced difficulties using it, Indian defence experts say. Indian defence officials declined to react to the Nepali comments.

The nine-year Maoist revolt has scared away investors in the desperately cash-strapped nation and wrecked the economy that is heavily dependent on international aid and tourism.

More than 12,500 people have died in the conflict and tens of thousands of people have fled their homes to towns or to neighbouring India to escape the conflict.

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=52642

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as67-e.htm

 

[Rebar]

Sounds like they'd have been better off sticking with the FAL.

 

[R.H. Lee]

It's my policy not to buy anything from countries where you can't drink the water............

 

[Correia]

How hard can it possibly be to screw up what is basically a ripoff of a Kalashnikov?

 

[Daniel T]

Reallt hard apparently. Hell, that can't even come close to making NATO 7.62 M80 correctly.

BTW, any want 100 rounds of Indian 7.62x51?

 

[jefnvk]

I dunno, my Indian Enfield works fine

OTOH, I like that 'don't buy anything from where you wouldn't drink the water'

 

[Eightball]

Crap, RileyMc beat me to it . But, that's my advice for both weapons and munitions--if you can't drink the water, don't use their arms .

 

[Ian]

jefnvk - IIRC, your Indian Enfield was made back when the Brits were in charge of Indian arsenals. Not that it might much today (L85...), but back then it did.

 

[1 old 0311]

If ANY country has a history of crap manufacturing I stay away. If a country has a history of quality manufacturing you are usually ok. Ever see s&#t guns from Germany, or Switzerland?

Kevin

 

[Coronach]

XM-8?

Sorry. I had to.

Mike

 

[Vern Humphrey]

It's my policy not to buy anything from countries where you can't drink the water............

"Pssst. Hey, Meester! You want my seester?"

"Not after what I caught from just drinking your water!"

 

[Jesse308]

"May be the weapons we were using were not designed for a long fight. They malfunctioned"

That has to be the funniest thing I heard today. I mean didn't they test the rifles before they were adopted.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

That has to be the funniest thing I heard today. I mean didn't they test the rifles before they were adopted.

Maybe not. But it's impossible to completely duplicate combat conditions in tests. You'll always have lurking faults that spring up only when you're actually using the weapon in combat.

And, to be fair, some nations have tested rifles and after the rifles FAILED the tests, gone ahead and adopted them anyway -- the M16A1 is a good example.

 

[Coronach]

There's another possibility. They could be blaming the rifle for their poor maintenance and repair.

Mike

 

[Vern Humphrey]

There's another possibility. They could be blaming the rifle for their poor maintenance and repair.

That's possible, but having been the recipient of the original M16A1s, I am loath to blame the troops when the procurement and training systems are really at fault. Rifles should be as soldier-proof as possible, and troops should be thoroughly trained on their care and maintenance.

In Viet Nam, we were thrown a POS, with inadequate cleaning tools and materials and expected to make it up as we went.

 

[jefnvk]

jefnvk - IIRC, your Indian Enfield was made back when the Brits were in charge of Indian arsenals. Not that it might much today (L85...), but back then it did.

Actually, it is one of the Indian ones. The 2A1, 7.62 NATO made IIRC in 1967.

 

[longrifleman]

There were also fewer troops at the base as it was a road construction project and not a fighting base, he added.

I thinking weapons maintence wasn't top priority. Too busy changing oil in the wheelbarrows to change the oil in the rifles.

 

[Cosmoline]

HA HA! C&R'S RULE!! Here's a photo of the Nepalese rebels doing some morning exercises, Cosmoline-style:

I don't think much of their politics, but I love their rifles.

 

[Ash]

I would say that RG/Rhome gave Germans a bit of a black eye. After all, many Saturday Night Specials came from Germany.

Ash

 

[Sleeping Dog]

There's another possibility. They could be blaming the rifle for their poor maintenance and repair.

And another possibility - they could be blaming the rifle for the skid marks in their shorts. Maybe they just got beat.

My Ishapore Enfield shoots great, too. It's also a 2A1 in .308. But the wood - I think some Cosmoline-eating termites attacked it. It's worse than the Dane M1 wood, worse than the greek 03 wood. Bad. But the thing shoots almost all 9 and 10 rings at 100 yds, can't ask for more than that.

Regards.

 

[Lucky]

""May be the weapons we were using were not designed for a long fight. They malfunctioned," he said.

There were also fewer troops at the base as it was a road construction project and not a fighting base, he added."

"There were stoppages during the firing, the rifles got hot and soldiers had to wait for them to cool," another officer said."


It reads like the troops were not fighters but road construction crew, which may have different standards for weapons maintenance and training. And that their weapon's heating took them by surprise, this is rather indicative.

 

[KriegHund]

I wouldnt blame the INSAS rifles too fast.

How do we know they were cared for and taken care of properly?

For all we know they are never cleaned and/or have been sitting in a leaky shed for the last 20 years.

 

[Cosmoline]

I haven't heard of or seen too many problems with old war rifles or true AK's that have been abused and not cleaned. A military shouldn't be expected to take time out and clean their firearms on a regular basis. During war they may have much more important things to do--including build roads, entrenchments and defend themselves at inopportune times.

 

[Coronach]

It's a balancing act. Too much of a necessity for PM is a bad thing. But a requirement for a no-PM weapon will result in either a severe disappointment when it fails or a design compromise that ends up costing you in other areas, like accuracy.

Mike

 

[Pilgrim]

Ever see s&#t guns from Germany, or Switzerland?

The Sphinx AT2000 Police Special Pistol for one.

Pilgrim