Wrong car in Drug War.

[cassandrasdaddy]

how about

the member who suggested picking 5 cops at random and giving em a nickel for the sins of another

 

[foob]

Mensa dudes are too smart for me, I dare not comment on them or they'll strike me down with their nerd power. Anyway that was after his post.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

gotta watch those powers!

it was a funny post i have a 15 year old kid staying here hes goint to court llooking at jail till hes 21 possibly. and at 15 with that kinda police history he read that and said "the dudes wacked" from the mouths of babes. its a lil scary sometimes what folks say and believe in. especially when i realize the y can serve on a jury decide my fate

 

[hoji]

how about

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the member of mensa who suggested picking 5 cops at random and giving em a nickel for the sins of another

If you can't comment without a personal attack, maybe you should post in another topic. And have enough spine to name me instead of calling me names.

 

[HiroProX]

joab, if you call what they got punishment. Justice would have been those incompetent cops on trial for felony assault and unlawful detention.

And Spreadfire Arms, the problem with your analogy is as follows. Police are granted special privileges, thus according to the standards of a constitutional federal republic, they are likewise subject to increased scrutiny. Like any public official, you voluntarily abridge some of your rights when you assume a position of potential power over others.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Punish Everyone

Wow. Just, holy frigging wow.

In case y'all missed the falsehood, punishing everyone in the unit because one guy screwed up DOES NOT WORK. The professional screw-ups just get craftier.

The part of that which DOES work is the self-policing unit. Punishment of the whole unit is simply an incentive in that direction. The other thing that encourages this is that staff doesn't discipline the unit when the unit brings discipline to bear on an errant member of said unit.

What works is a self-policing community.

So, if you're going to follow the model, allow the law enforcement dudes to be a self-policing organization. If you allowed them to clean up their own ranks and didn't discipline them for doing so you would soon have an organization in which comformity with a set of standards was rock solid.

Of course, it's worth noting that the other organization that had success with that method was the Mafia.

So if you're going to get into self-policing, it's well to ensure going in, that the philosophical and ethical platform is the one you really want.

Or you could use a well-defined justice system. With no special exemptions for law enforcement.

Well, it's not a perfect world, is it? But then, if it was, there wouldn't be any need for law enforcement. Or laws. [Obligatory John Lennon reference here.]

Random punishment is a fear-based methodology. Fear sucks as a motivating force.

Find the bad guy. Punish or rehabilitate the bad guy.

Leave everyone else alone.

 

[k_dawg]

The solution is already there for everyone.

One court system for all US citizens. Cops should go thru exactly the same justice system as any other citizen. In this case, they should be charged with felonious assault while in posession of a firearm in the same court house the two men would have been tried in.

One Law. One Justice System. No double standard.

 

[foob]

The part of that which DOES work is the self-policing unit.

Self policing doesn't work. That's why there are three branches of government, something called checks and balances. That's why the internal affairs department operates independently of the other police units. That's why the government accountability office is an independent agency

 

[joab]

He should be in prison not on suspension.

I personally would not be content until the offenders were named and shamed publicly, fired publicly, humiliated publicly, bankrupted themselves,

But you already posted that one

. Failing that, I'm all in favor of family members of the victims taking it upon themselves to get a little payback.

get the cops publicly humiliated, and fired.

All made before my initial post foob

If you don't think that public humiliation, "family payback", bankruptcy, prison and ending their careers are life ruining events then I really don't know what to say to you

"The organs of state security do not make mistakes."

That would almost be a pertinent comment if I had tried to deny that they had made a mistake

They investigated, made no excuses , disciplined those responsible, and compensated the victims

Oh look, so did the sheriff

"It's something we're not proud of," Coats (he's the sheriff) said.

No one in the vice and narcotics division who was involved, including the captain in charge, had a problem with the level of force used.

However, Coats(he's the sheriff) and the Enterprise employees who

witnessed it did, the case file shows.

So no you can't be in the club until you get it



When the average citizens daily job duties entail the real possibility of intentionally putting themselves in harms way I will agree that cops should be treated as any other citizen.

And for those of you that don't want to realize it
A twelve day suspension for a cop is a whole lot more than a twelve day suspension from a job at 7-11 or the video store and carries many more repercussions that will follow them for a good part of their career.
if it was simply the slap on the wrist that many here see it why would be challenging it

 

[insidious_calm]

He should be in prison not on suspension.

Ok Joab, since you saw fit to include me now I'll deal with your nonsense. Please explain why they SHOULDN'T be in prison. It's simple enough. Do you think that it's OK to STOMP and unarmed, compliant person IN THE BACK and slam their face into the ground causing bleeding in their mouth? Do you think I would get to remain free if I did that? Come on now justify it or be quiet. Be careful your character is talking.

Yes it may very well be a life ruining event. It sure would be for me. No more firearms. No more job. No more freedom. Oh wait, they just made a mistake, right? Well when you make a mistake of that magnitude there are consequences. Those who aren't willing to accept them deserve no respect. You can't plead mercy without admitting you did something wrong either which you apparently can't do. So step on up and justify it already.




I.C.

 

[Sindawe]

When the average citizens daily job duties entail the real possibility of intentionally putting themselves in harms way I will agree that cops should be treated as any other citizen.

I'm an "average" citizen and the risks of harm from my last daily job included:

Scalding by high pressure steam lines.
Falls from heights to concrete floors or hard & sharp peices of machinery.
Crushing injury from 500 pound drums of 70% glucose and 300 pound dewers of low temperature gases.
Asphyxiation/poisoning by a host of gases, solids and noxous liquids, including but not limited to - Diatomic nitrogen, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, glacial acetic acid, cyanide (gaseous, liquid solutions and solid), hydrofloric acid, ammonium hydroxide, 50% caustic soda, liquid oxygen, liquid nitrogen and diatomaceous earth (breathing produces silicosis).
Becoming entangled in moving bits of machinery.
Sudden failure of glass walled chromatography columns being operated under pressure, yeilding flying bits of jagged glass covered in caustic/acid/toxic liquids.
Exposure to potentially pathogenic organisms and/or massive dosing of bacterial debris containing endotoxins that produce very high fevers and other immune system overreactions.
Having to move TOWARD an industrial centrifuge (900 pounds of steel spinning at 7200 RPM) when it does the unbalanced washing machine routine to shut it down BEFORE it wrenches itself free of the floor and takes a spin across the hall, through the concrete wall and down the street.

Any of which could produce crippling injuries or death.

That was just an average job in a pharmaceutical facility. I'm sure that the folks who've worked as linemen, powerplant operators and such could offer their lists of daily risks of harm.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I also find it interesting what police today consider 'resisting arrest', which seems to be 'doing anything but following an officer's orders instantly'.

x2

I saw an example just last week. My wife and I made an evening run to the mall (which we don't like to do, for reasons which will become more obvious), but she had just received an urgent, last-minute birthday gift request from her brother, who has been very good to her. We didn't feel we could not make the effort.

As we parked the car we saw a crowd gathered by the entrance, with the mall's rent-a-cop buggy and its flashers all lit up, a city police car, and lots of security personnel. There was a girl (either fat or pregnant) sittin on the sidewalk, her face bloody, sobbing, being supported from behind by one of the security ninjas. Another ninja was keeping people from taking a look at what was happening. Beyond the girl, one or two city police and at LEAST three mall security ninjas were piling onto a perp, who was flat out on the sidewalk. All I could hear was the girl sobbing and the alleged perp asking the "team" to please let him up so he could breathe. Yes, I distinctly heard the 'P' word ... not once, but probably five or six times. Each time he asked them to "please" let him breathe, the mashed on him a little harder.

I didn't even have a camera phone and we arrived late to the party, so I have no idea who was the good guy (or gal) and who was the bad guy (or gal). All I know is that I kept hearing this dude asking to be let up so he could breathe, and the "authorities" responded by pushing him deeper into the sidewalk. I expected to read in the morning paper that he had died of unexplained causes while being apprehended, but if it made the news I didn't see it.

I'm sure their story would be that he was "resisting." From where I was standing, it looked like (and sounded like) he wa suffocating.

 

[Deanimator]

Quote:
"The organs of state security do not make mistakes."

That would almost be a pertinent comment if I had tried to deny that they had made a mistake

To a good Chekist, even a "mistake" isn't a mistake. It's "social prophylaxis".

The men beaten by those cops were potential "hooligans", right? They may have committed some crime or crimes in the past, completely unknown to the organs. They might have been planning to commit crimes in the future. Isn't it just a sensible precaution to "beat, beat and beat some more"?

When we seek to seriously punish cops who beat those allegedly innocent of a PARTICULAR crime, we make a fetish of "bourgeois legalism", don't we?

 

[joab]

The men beaten by those cops were potential "hooligans", right? They may have committed some crime or crimes in the past, completely unknown to the organs. They might have been planning to commit crimes in the future. Isn't it just a sensible precaution to "beat, beat and beat some more"?

Please show me where I have even implied any of these things
If you can't keep your comments on point why should I continue to engage your idiotic assertions
Once again please show me where I have excused or denied the actions of the officers or in any way condemned the actions of the victims, you may also notice that I have twice referred to them as victims,
Answer these questions and stop your ignorant McCarthyism histrionics

The Pharmaceutical "Business with Disease" Causes More Deaths Than All Wars of Mankind Combined
How many arrests have been made in the pharmaceutical industry this year.
Not that your comparison has any real life application, but
If you make a mistake that cost someone this amount of inconvenience will you be arrested.
If you make a simple procedural mistake that actually cost someone a limb will you be imprisoned, bankrupted,or subject to family payback. You may be fired but I seen many accounts where the person responsible was merely disciplined and company insurance settled with the widow

Do you think that it's OK to STOMP and unarmed, compliant person IN THE BACK and slam their face into the ground causing bleeding in their mouth?

No and neither did the sheriff and whoever awarded the victims the settlement.

Do you think I would get to remain free if I did that?

Don't know about you, but I did. And I broke the guy's jaw and knocked out several teeth. Not only did I remain free but I have no record related to the incident, I did have to pay some money to the guy though.

My wife was mugged a couple of months ago, her attacker never went to jail and probably will never see any jail time, he does have to pay her some money though, but he didn't even get suspended.

You can't plead mercy without admitting you did something wrong either which you apparently can't do.

You will have to clarify that comment cause to me that don't hardly even make no sense.

When I worked for a pest control company working in downtown Orlando, servicing private businesses, I didn't have to follow the traffic laws that average citizens did, I could drive on sidewalks and park in no parking zones. I could also carry knives into the courthouses I worked in where an average citizen could not, and won't even tell you what I was allowed to do at airports. Because my job required it.

Those guys working on the expressway right of ways can make u-turns in the median and drive around the toll booths without getting the ticket that an average citizen would get. Because their jobs require it

In Florida armed security guards can openly carry firearms which would be a misdemeanor for average citizens Because their jobs require it

Some of you people that want so badly for the police to be treated like the rest of us or scream for them to be held to a higher standard are the same ones that latch so firmly to the court opinions that they have no affirmative duty to protect the individual. Why then don't you accept the court decision granting immunity for good faith errors.

If you want then to be treated like the rest of us fine.
Take away their guns and uniforms and issue them cell phones

Those of you that howl so loudly against the cops either have never needed them or have never been the cause for someone else needing them, and probably have had very minimal interaction with them on the job.

But cop bashing is cool so lets all just jump on the bandwagon.
That way all we have to do is pull out cliches and obscure references implying those that don't blindly hate "The Man" are communists,statists or sheeple and everyone thinks we're smart and no one will call us sheep.
If that doesn't work we can call the character of those that will think for themselves into question that way we don't have to address their comments intelligently we can just call them nonsense

I guess that's easier than actually thinking for one's self.
But then isn't it also kinda sheepish

 

[Deanimator]

Those of you that howl so loudly against the cops either have never needed them or have never been the cause for someone else needing them, and probably have had very minimal interaction with them on the job.

I've actually NEEDED the cops twice.

The first time, they REFUSED to come.

The second time, they were nowhere to be seen, and likely impossible to contact without greatly increasing the danger to myself.

In both instances, their neglect or absence required ME to use the threat of armed force to protect MYSELF.

The simple fact is that when I "need" the police, they will be unlikely to meet that need in a timely fashion. Of course they have no DUTY to meet that "need", nor can they be held liable IF they fail to.

All that having been said, you have completely failed to make a case that police should be punished more leniently for criminal acts than non-police.

 

[Firethorn]

hoji, I'm in the military. During my time I've seen/experienced a number of 'group punishments' mostly while in the dorms regarding trashings of the dayrooms.

Group punishments didn't work a bit. What finally stopped it was having a senior NCO stop by and catch the trashers in the act. Who then got to be bay-ho for a couple month's weekends. The trashings stopped.

As for why the airmen didn't catch them, the trashings took place at hours reasonable airmen were in bed, though I believe that there were names mentioned, the senior leadership wasn't willing to take action over the word of an E2. Thus finally having a SNCO stop by at 0200.

When the average citizens daily job duties entail the real possibility of intentionally putting themselves in harms way I will agree that cops should be treated as any other citizen.

I'll state it a different way than Sindawe did. While a police officer's death is tragic(one just happened in my granfather's city), Police officer as a profession isn't dangerous enough to make the top 10 list for dangerous jobs.

Timber cutters headed up the list with your average timber cutter having better than a .1% chance of dying that year. Truck drivers, number 10 on that list, were .025% likely to die. Where's the justice for the drivers-sales workers, which includes pizza delivery and vending stocking, at the rate of .038%, 25% of which are from robberies and assaults.

The Pharmaceutical "Business with Disease" Causes More Deaths Than All Wars of Mankind Combined
How many arrests have been made in the pharmaceutical industry this year.

Conspiracy theory. The medical industry provides plenty of cures each year, the fact is that cures are difficult. Now, if you'd posted a link about medical mistakes/malpractice, than you'd have a leg to stand on.

Personally, I'm not asking the cops to be error-free. The occasional bad arrest, ok, fine. Personally, I see much of the problem with there being 'crimes' where nobody involved much wants to talk. Except for murder, how many other crimes involving a true victim is that true?

End the war on drugs and prostitution and watch the crime rate, including violent crime, drop like a rock. Watch 'law enforcement officers' take a step towards being officers of the peace again, people who somebody in trouble has no problems turning to when they're in trouble.

 

[joab]

Police officer as a profession isn't dangerous enough to make the top 10 list for dangerous jobs.

Now it is your turn
Please show me where I have stated or implied that police officer is on any list of ten most dangerous jobs?.
Show me where I have even brought that issue up?

Now show me where a timber cutter intentionally places himself in harms way.

Try it and I will show you all the OSHA regs in place and the industry adopted safety procedures set to intentionally place timber cutters out of harms way.

So unless you can show me any example of a pharmaceutical confronting and armed prescription bottle or a lumberjack who has tried to apprehend a known violent tree then your comparison has absolutely no basis.

All that having been said, you have completely failed to make a case that police should be punished more leniently for criminal acts than non-police.

And where have you made the case that they should be punished more severely.
I have already given examples of where people with no right or authority to detain an individual have actually assaulted individuals in a much more grievous manner that the officers here did and received no jail time and in one case no record..

In response to your sad story of police inaction
This one time I was in trouble when Timmy fell down the well and I cried out "somebody please help me"
Suddenly a police man with a cape flew out of the sky and saved the day.
It actually happened twice

And speaking of not proving your point
I'm still waiting fro the examples I ask for previously.
Please show me where I implied any of the things that you have made up in your juvenile attempt to paint me as a communist sympathizer couldn't think of any other cliche I guess

You have twice tried to falsely credit things to me that I have not even hinted out I have twice asked for examples you have twice ignored that request
Maybe it's time for you to show your character and either put up or admit that you are not above inventing your own truth.

 

[Henry the Eighth]

Joab, you distinctly said that the police put themselves in harm's way, that implies they have a dangerous job. They do not. All of the people who actually do have dangerous jobs put themselves in harm's way by merely clocking in. What to OSHA regulations have to do with whether a job is dangerous or not? There are plenty of OSHA regulations for police too. I fail to follow your so-called point, your argument fails the most basic logic.

The police are often not punished at all for their mistakes, mistakes that would land you or I in jail. As you love to tell people, your ancedotal stories have no weight in this discussion.

That last paragraph is just pure, unadulterated nonsense. Not to mention the fact that if TImmy really did fall down a well, you would call the Fire Department and SAR, not the police.

 

[joab]

oab, you distinctly said that the police put themselves in harm's way, that implies they have a dangerous job.

No it implies that they intentionally put themselves in harms way

What to OSHA regulations have to do with whether a job is dangerous or not?

No where did I say that OSHA regs determine whether a job is dangerous or not I said that OSHA regs are there to intentionally try to keep employees out of harms way

There are plenty of OSHA regulations for police too.

Do any of those regs sate that a cop must never pursue a known violent felon who is armed and dangerous, do any of those OSHA regs require that cops never do something like run into a burning building as it is collapsing and the people who are supposed to be in that building are running out of the OSHA mandated emergency exits?

The police are often not punished at all for their mistakes, mistakes that would land you or I in jail.

But the police were punished here weren't they?
So why do you bring up what often happens.
The police have admitted fault, compensated the victims and disciplined the offenders IN THIS CASE.
So therefore your supposition about what you think usually happens has no weight here see how that works

That last paragraph is just pure, unadulterated nonsense. Not to mention the fact that if TImmy really did fall down a well, you would call the Fire Department and SAR, not the police.

Really, who woulda thunk it? RIF
Some people are just so antsy to jump on the band wagon they don't even bother to see where it has actually been much less where it is actually going

Will somebody please address what I have said and not try to twist it into what they want me to have said
That only proves that you are box learned regurgitators with no free thinking ability.
I've heard all these cliches before people, think new

 

[Deanimator]

You have twice tried to falsely credit things to me that I have not even hinted out I have twice asked for examples you have twice ignored that request

I have accurately credited your attitudes toward the use and misuse of governmental authority.

Your repeated attempts to assert that police are entitled to preferential treatment when they commit violent crimes have met with complete failure.

If the police DON'T protect me (and they DON'T), neither you nor they can claim that they deserve lenience when they break the law, because they PRETEND that they protect me.

Any perusal of a big city newspaper website will demonstrate the fatuousness of your claims regarding civilians and violent crime. You cannot thereby justify your risible assertions regarding the right of police to commit violent crimes and get a pass therefrom.

In addition, police in THIS country are not drafted. They are in their jobs because they WANT to be, whether their reasons are laudible or otherwise. Nor are their jobs NEARLY as dangerous as those of a variety of other workers, as has been amply demonstrated to you.

One more time, a cop does not get to commit violent crimes against me and be treated leniently, merely because he and you CLAIM (without substantiation) that his VOLUNTARY employment is more dangerous, or that THEORETICALLY (but not in any practical way) he "protects" me.

If you and the police claim that their jobs are so dangerous that the only way they can THEORETICALLY (but not actually, outside of Illinois) protect me is for them to be treated more leniently for criminal behavior than the rest of the population, I have a suggestion.

QUIT your jobs as police. Find safer, more lucrative employment elsewhere. We both know that you do NOT "protect" me, have NO duty to "protect" me, and CANNOT be held (in Ohio, anyway) liable for FAILING to "protect" me. That being the incontrovertible truth, let's drop the pretense that I "owe" you something for the ILLUSION of security you're purveying. If you want to commit violent crimes (such as racially motivated assault and kidnapping, for which Cleveland PD officer William Forrest will be tried next month), join the ranks of the private sector felons and take your chances in the justice system with the rest of them.

 

[joab]

I have accurately credited your attitudes toward the use and misuse of governmental authority.

I asked for example not more assumptions and rhetoric

Your repeated attempts to assert that police are entitled to preferential treatment when they commit violent crimes have met with complete failure

I know I shouldn't but, please show me where I have advocated police getting preferential treatment for committing violent crimes.

One more time, a cop does not get to commit violent crimes against me and be treated leniently, merely because he and you CLAIM (without substantiation) that his VOLUNTARY employment is more dangerous,

Here we go again
Please show me where I have said that a police career is more dangerous. keep in mind that if you do I will show you IN THIS THREAD where I have said that it is not.

You keep coming back with claims but refuse to actually cite examples.
Why is that?
Is it because you feel that others who read this will also be too lazy to actually read through and dispute your claim or that if you repeat a lie enough it will become truth.

SHOW ME EXAMPLES TWISTY

 

[Deanimator]

I asked for example not more assumptions and rhetoric

You appear indecisive regarding the message which you intend to convey.

Or are you simply inarticulate and inadvertently say one thing while meaning another?

Perhaps you should reexamine your own statements and either reformulate or repudiate them.

 

[joab]

Last chance Twisty
Examples please

 

[Art Eatman]

Sorta come a long way from "ST. PETERSBURG - Pinellas County sheriff's vice and narcotics detectives briefly lost a car they had under surveillance one afternoon in August, but then it reappeared: A white Chevrolet Lumina, with tinted windows, a yellow license plate, and two black men inside."

Why not do the backing and forthing via PM?

Art