WST loads for Lead 125gr SWC 9mm ?

[chiltech500]

Howdy,

I have load data from this site for 9mm jacketed/plated with WST - 4.3-4.5 for 124/125gr.

Looking for data for 125 gr Lead, anyone? Suggestions?

Thanks

 

[BigBore45]

what is the oal of the bullet and the diam?

 

[mstreddy]

Chill,

I double checked my logs, I pretty much stayed right around there for the lead 124/125s. Depending on the weight, nose profile, etc... the OAL went from
122gr flat nose 1.087"
125gr round nose 1.140"
130gr flat cone nose 1.145" & 1.152"
All at 4.5gr


ME

 

[chiltech500]

Thanks Mstreddy. I'm using an 126 gr LSWC from Dardas that has a flat base (an imitation for accuracy from JHP's with the flat base). My Lymans depicts a 125gr, of course with a profile not seen these days from our independent casters. I tried to keep the OAL at 1.115 as depicted in the manual. The Dardas bullet is longer from the shoulder down and has a more pointed nose than the MBC LSWC. I believe it gives more surface area below the shell mouth than the MBC.

Big Bore, diameter is .356 a is most lead 9mm's and bullet length won't help per se, using bullet length from the shoulder down on SWC's would be the best way to compare bullets. As you know the manuals show a drawing and OAL of the bullet they used, but if your bullet is different it kind of is a trial and error thing. Most bullets I use other than the 45ACP LSWC are not quite like those depicted in the manuals.

 

[BigBore45]

i was going to put it in quickload for you. that is why i needed the bullet OAL. and cartridge OAL.

 

[mstreddy]

Chill,
I didn't mention in the first post, but I vary the OAL due to bullet length/type and the all-important plunk test.
I found that you have to ensure they are seated deep enough to clear the chamber of the barrel you are using to test. I use my G17 Lone Wolf barrel as it's tight, and I know that if it clears that one -- it WILL work in all of my other 9MMs.

 

[chiltech500]

Thanks mstreddy. I am pretty much just shooting a Sig 9mm which eats everything. I don't understand why some powders loads vary quite a bit between lead and jacketed/plated.

My OAL for the 126gr LSWC was 1.080 with a load of 3gr Titegroup, but for Berrys 125gr plated target hollow points at 1.070 OAL I have used Titegroup 4.0. The difference in recoil isn't big. Comparing that to the WST using the same for both leaves me scratching my head.

I wish someone could educate me, as I have seen that done by Alliant on an old handgun chart with Green Dot and Red Dot. They showed the same load for lead and jacketed but were not very specific on bullet shapes.

 

[mstreddy]

Chill,
I am NOT the expert, but here's what I've learned from my reading:
In general Lead loads are lower than Jacketed as the lead requires less pressure to obturate and seal the barrel and thus generate xx velocity from a given charge for a given bullet weight when compared to Jacketed.
Maybe not all powder/ load data companies show that, but most do.
Plated occupies that middle ground between lead and Jacketed and depending on the manufacturer/load data they will recommend using lead data or up to mid level jacket data. More and more powder and bullet companies are generating/publishing load data for the plated, so it's something to check.
As to the bullet shapes/profiles/lengths, those all will have an effect on seating depth, COAL and of course charge weights.
That wide difference in the Titegroup data you have there is interesting, but remember that different sources will often have a wide range for loads. As always -- work it up - test it and see how it works.
As to Alliant showing the same load for a powder and Lead/Jacketed bullets -- that is a little uncommon, based on what I've seen. Now, something to keep in mind is that general Alliant lists the max load and you have to scale back 10% and work up from there.
As to how it relates to WST -- here's what I did -- YMMV and all that other important stuff --- I found some old data from Winchester on 9MM and WST, I found the recommendations on the Brian Enos forums, I had some feedback from other THR members, then I determined a range to test for my uses -- 4.0 - 5.0 grs. under a 124gr Berry's RN. I fired 10 rounds each at .2 gr increments from 4.0 to 5.0. I judged the recoil, ejection, cycling, function of the gun, inspected the brass and was satisfied. I then decided to use 4.3 as the load starting point as it was towards the bottom and was functioning fine. I did load some up to 4.4gr to help cycle my Glock 34 better. I then loaded up some of the Berry's Hollow Base RN Thick Plate and bumped some up to 4.5 given the "extra" case capacity and smoother cycling of the G34.
When I switched to lead bullets I kept it at the plated load levels as they generate similar pressure levels and note the information above - plated uses lead data.
On the subject of bullet styles, profiles and such -- this will affect the seating depth and for me, that's a matter of using the Plunk Test. One thing I've noticed is that when loading lead bullets, I have to adjust the seating depth/OAL to ensure a good fit in the chamber, particularly in the Lone Wolf barrel for the Glock 17.

I hope this long-winded answer helps, but remember that's why we work up loads.

 

[BigBore45]

Chill,
I am NOT the expert, but here's what I've learned from my reading:
In general Lead loads are lower than Jacketed as the lead requires less pressure to obturate and seal the barrel and thus generate xx velocity from a given charge for a given bullet weight when compared to Jacketed.
Maybe not all powder/ load data companies show that, but most do.
Plated occupies that middle ground between lead and Jacketed and depending on the manufacturer/load data they will recommend using lead data or up to mid level jacket data. More and more powder and bullet companies are generating/publishing load data for the plated, so it's something to check.
As to the bullet shapes/profiles/lengths, those all will have an effect on seating depth, COAL and of course charge weights.
That wide difference in the Titegroup data you have there is interesting, but remember that different sources will often have a wide range for loads. As always -- work it up - test it and see how it works.
As to Alliant showing the same load for a powder and Lead/Jacketed bullets -- that is a little uncommon, based on what I've seen. Now, something to keep in mind is that general Alliant lists the max load and you have to scale back 10% and work up from there.
As to how it relates to WST -- here's what I did -- YMMV and all that other important stuff --- I found some old data from Winchester on 9MM and WST, I found the recommendations on the Brian Enos forums, I had some feedback from other THR members, then I determined a range to test for my uses -- 4.0 - 5.0 grs. under a 124gr Berry's RN. I fired 10 rounds each at .2 gr increments from 4.0 to 5.0. I judged the recoil, ejection, cycling, function of the gun, inspected the brass and was satisfied. I then decided to use 4.3 as the load starting point as it was towards the bottom and was functioning fine. I did load some up to 4.4gr to help cycle my Glock 34 better. I then loaded up some of the Berry's Hollow Base RN Thick Plate and bumped some up to 4.5 given the "extra" case capacity and smoother cycling of the G34.
When I switched to lead bullets I kept it at the plated load levels as they generate similar pressure levels and note the information above - plated uses lead data.
On the subject of bullet styles, profiles and such -- this will affect the seating depth and for me, that's a matter of using the Plunk Test. One thing I've noticed is that when loading lead bullets, I have to adjust the seating depth/OAL to ensure a good fit in the chamber, particularly in the Lone Wolf barrel for the Glock 17.

I hope this long-winded answer helps, but remember that's why we work up loads.

Good post! Always work up, if you have to ask you need to work up!!

 

[huntershooter]

4.3 gr. WST with a 125 gr. LRN @ 1.150" gives me 1140+- FPS from a 5" 1911 and 1120+- FPS from a BHP (4" barrel).
Accuracy on par with factory 124 gr. FMJ.

 

[chiltech500]

Thanks so much MstrEddy! Excellent explanation and comparing loads with plated and jacketed is totally new information to me. Your explanations are all very logical and well presented.

Thanks Bigbore.too.

Interesting how different shapes relate to the plunk test but also to loading and ejecting smoothly with a given powder load. Comparing the COAL of a FMJRN factory at 1.160 to a LSWC at 1.10 per Lymans, I know it's the shape and the ogive that make for the difference in COAL.

I wish manuals would give the sunken depth of a given bullet not the COAL. In a high pressure round (9mm) I am more concerned than 45ACP OR 38SP... shapes of bullets from different sources vary resulting in a different sunken bullet depth - this to me makes calculating loads a trickier proposition. Example the 125gr LSWC from MBC is a different shape than the 126gr LSWC from Dardas and the sunken depths are different.

I can determine dimension max's with the plunk test but how much difference in pressure is there with a bullet sunk .025 deeper? If I had saved some MBC rounds I could compare to my current Dardas LSWC round and compare velocities with my chrono - but I didn't

So I will start low load maybe 3.6 cause of the slightly heavier and deeper bullet. I love experimenting though have done so much this last year it's making my head spin

 

[Seabeeken]

What powders do you have available? My Lee manual shows 15 different powders for 125 gr lead bullets

 

[mstreddy]

Chilltech,
It is a wondrous hobby. Yes, nearly every bullet out there is different, profiles, lengths, ogives, and let's not forget driving bands. I work out a test batch every time I switch bullets. The plunk is one part, of course, to ensure they will be chambering/working fine, and then of course the load itself. I tend to load low to mid range anyways so I don't sweat it too much. But, test, test, test. Some day I'll have to get a Chronograph.

Going from 125 to 126 in weight is pretty much insignificant, but the question is the bullet length and profile, and as you're thinking the adjustment in case capacity.
At least what I found in my loads was that the various weights/shapes referred above worked just fine at the 4.5gr load.

WST at 3.6gr might be a little low. See how they cycle your gun(s) and go from there. In one of mine (Glock 34), as noted in post #8, 4.3gr was a bit unreliable at cycling.

 

[chiltech500]

eddy,

I tried 3.7 and 3.9g WST with only 1/50 ftf or fte. No issues with 3.9g. The Sig 225 is very forgiving I've found. The Dardas bullets have a lot of bullet base sunk into the case as the shape is pretty narrow, almost pointed looking. I have suspected for a while when using these bullets that more driving band and less capacity in case makes starting at a lighter load advisable. I do have a chrono but am too lazy to have checked out velocities.

Hello Seebeken. I have different powders available, VV N310 and N320, Titegroup, Red Dot and Green Dot, and WST. To me the 9mm is my least favorite round and I relegate the least favorite or largest quantity powder too them. Having 8 lbs of WST I'm currently using it in all my rounds. When the quantity drops to around 4lbs it's time to re-evaluate to see where the best fit is. It works well in 38 and 45acp - I'm hoping it's relatively accurate in 9mm with lead. I'm not looking to spend the extra couple pennies per bullet for plated if I can get away with using lead ($.055 vs .08).

 

[mstreddy]

Chill,
It sounds like you are pretty much there with the load. I pretty much used all of the 4 pounds of WST that I had, mostly in 9, some 38 Spcl, 40 S&W, and a few 45s. I actually liked it and will buy more when I see it. It's not W231, but it worked just fine for me. I didn't do extensive group testing, but it dinged the 12" gong at 35-40 yards repeatedly out of my Glock 17. At 7 yards it puts a mag into one ragged hole.

 

[chiltech500]

Eddy,
That's good shooting in my book, am sure I couldn't say the same. I went out yesterday for the first time in a week and wasn't as good as usual with the 8" gong at 25 yd after targets at 25 yd, my standard distance. Am thinking the lead ammo is more erratic than the plated because I could hit my gong minimum 6/8 with the 9mm and plated bullets. Haven't really had time to test - it was so windy yesterday paper targets kept getting pulled off the mount so I switched to the gong sooner.

We rescued a shelter dog 3 weekends ago and shooting has slowed substantially. Customarily in good weather I'd average 600 rounds a week. Have shot maybe 400 rounds in 2 weeks since doggie. Good dog though, 1 year old mix of hound and pit bull. He isn't sound sensitive and loves the car - thinking about taking him and leaving him in the car with windows up. We pull up and park literally 15 feet from the tables of the pistol range. I could keep an eye on him that way. My wife is very independent and this dog is great, except he gets separation anxiety. Just received a "pro" crate Friday but not before he destroyed his wire crate and ripped through my basement door into the first floor and greeted me at the door when I came home! We are trying to keep crating to the minimum till (we hope) he gets used to the crate. I'm afraid he would destroy things in the house if we just left him alone when going out. Other that the separation anxiety he is a perfect dog and never barks.